Gase: "Sometimes you got to let a guy be a baller"

[JustInFudge]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Favre's first year as a starter he had a 64.1% Completion %.  Lifetime he was 62%, low for elite players of his era, but fine.

If Darnold is at 64% next year, i think we'd all be very pleased by that.  Right?  And we have reason to hope he will be.

If he's still sub-60%, that's not something to applaud because "gunslinger"......is it?

Who was the last sub-60% QB to win a Super Bowl (asking, as I honestly don't know).

Joe Flacco

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, JiF said:

Joe Flacco

59.7% in 2012, yup.  Lifetime 61.7%.

[nico002]

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Favre's first year as a starter he had a 64.1% Completion %.  Lifetime he was 62%, low for elite players of his era, but fine.

If Darnold is at 64% next year, i think we'd all be very pleased by that.  Right?  And we have reason to hope he will be.

If he's still sub-60%, that's not something to applaud because "gunslinger"......is it?

Who was the last sub-60% QB to win a Super Bowl (asking, as I honestly don't know).

Lets look at last year's NFL Playoff QB's:

Brady 66.2%
Goff 63.4%
Luck 66.2%
Wilson 65.6%
Rivers 66.7%
Foles 69.2%/Wentz 69.6%
Watson 67.5%
Prescott 67.3%
Trubisky 66%
Mahomes 65.3%
Brees 73.7%
Jackson 58.2%

Only one established guy under 65% (Goff).  And one guy (Jackson, a rookie) who ran more than passed at 58.2%.

Now, would you call all these guys timid?  Or afraid to make hard throws?  Of course not.

Winning QB's generally speaking are at or over 65% completion rate.  

That is where we want Darnold, gun-slinging or not, and where he has the talent and potential to take him.

Not sure what you’re point is. Darnold is an incredibly accurate passer regardless of what his comp% happened to be last year. He’s one of the most accurate short-mid throwers I’ve ever seen. 

[Warfish]

Just now, nico002 said:

Not sure what you’re point is. Darnold is an incredibly accurate passer regardless of what his comp% happened to be last year. He’s one of the most accurate short-mid throwers I’ve ever seen. 

And you know it because you see it, even if that's not represented in his actual performance metrics?

There certainly seems to be a disconnect here at JN. 

We have a QB who is already described by Jets Fans as "better-than-elite accuracy", or as you describe him, "one of the best you've ever seen"......yet he was below the Mendoza line in terms of completing passes with a relatively high number of interceptions.  We were upper-middle in drops, so it's not drops by themselves hurting his rates.

So why is an elite, best ever, ultra-accurate QB only completing 57% of his passes and throwing above-average INT's in a league where 65%-73% is elite?

Is it possible Jets Fans are being a little but hyperbolic describing a rookie was was at times and in certain moments very good.....but still overall hit-or-miss as rookies usually are, with terms like "better than elite" and "best I've ever seen"?   

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

[Peace Frog]

The “Master Debater” looking for someone else to tuck his tail and run away from. 

[Grandy]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

  

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

I think this is the most realistic statement in analyzing Darnold at this point in time. 

[nico002]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And you know it because you see it, even if that's not represented in his actual performance metrics?

There certainly seems to be a disconnect here at JN. 

We have a QB who is already described by Jets Fans as "better-than-elite accuracy", or as you describe him, "one of the best you've ever seen"......yet he was below the Mendoza line in terms of completing passes with a relatively high number of interceptions.  We were upper-middle in drops, so it's not drops by themselves hurting his rates.

So why is an elite, best ever, ultra-accurate QB only completing 57% of his passes and throwing above-average INT's in a league where 65%-73% is elite?

Is it possible Jets Fans are being a little but hyperbolic describing a rookie was was at times and in certain moments very good.....but still overall hit-or-miss as rookies usually are, with terms like "better than elite" and "best I've ever seen"?   

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

You don’t know what you’re watching. Darnold is absolutely an elite talent when it comes to accuracy and throwing with anticipation. Watch him complete 65% - 70% after he has the benefit of a QB friendly system and dump off to Bell.

[Peace Frog]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And you know it because you see it, even if that's not represented in his actual performance metrics?

There certainly seems to be a disconnect here at JN. 

We have a QB who is already described by Jets Fans as "better-than-elite accuracy", or as you describe him, "one of the best you've ever seen"......yet he was below the Mendoza line in terms of completing passes with a relatively high number of interceptions.  We were upper-middle in drops, so it's not drops by themselves hurting his rates.

So why is an elite, best ever, ultra-accurate QB only completing 57% of his passes and throwing above-average INT's in a league where 65%-73% is elite?

Is it possible Jets Fans are being a little but hyperbolic describing a rookie was was at times and in certain moments very good.....but still overall hit-or-miss as rookies usually are, with terms like "better than elite" and "best I've ever seen"?   

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

More hyperbole “ultra elite” “better than elite” while you say he is “inaccurate”. 

Geezuz what a bore. 

[Peace Frog]

Just now, nico002 said:

You don’t know what you’re watching. Darnold is absolutely an elite talent when it comes to accuracy and throwing with anticipation. Watch him complete 65% - 70% after he has the benefit of a QB friendly system and dump off to Bell.

He does not understand football. And he’s dour. But he doesn’t judge his life with what happens here, so he has that going for him. 

[JohnnyLV]

34 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Favre's first year as a starter he had a 64.1% Completion %.  Lifetime he was 62%, low for elite players of his era, but fine.

If Darnold is at 64% next year, i think we'd all be very pleased by that.  Right?  And we have reason to hope he will be.

If he's still sub-60%, that's not something to applaud because "gunslinger"......is it?

Who was the last sub-60% QB to win a Super Bowl (asking, as I honestly don't know).

Lets look at last year's NFL Playoff QB's:

Brady 66.2%
Goff 63.4%
Luck 66.2%
Wilson 65.6%
Rivers 66.7%
Foles 69.2%/Wentz 69.6%
Watson 67.5%
Prescott 67.3%
Trubisky 66%
Mahomes 65.3%
Brees 73.7%
Jackson 58.2%

Only one established guy under 65% (Goff).  And one guy (Jackson, a rookie) who ran more than passed at 58.2%.

Now, would you call all these guys timid?  Or afraid to make hard throws?  Of course not.

Winning QB's generally speaking are at or over 65% completion rate.  

That is where we want Darnold, gun-slinging or not, and where he has the talent and potential to take him.

I can see why you went there but I never meant to suggest that I see Darnold having a completion percentage lower than 60%. I was primarily talking about interceptions and interception ratio. I think Darnold will not necessarily be a 2 to 1 guy. He very may well be, he only threw 1 in the last 6 games and if so then he will be even better, maybe best QB in the NFL better.

I don't disagree with your point. 

 

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I can see why you went there but I never meant to suggest that I see Darnold having a completion percentage lower than 60%. I was primarily talking about interceptions and interception ratio. I think Darnold will not necessarily be a 2 to 1 guy. He very may well be, he only threw 1 in the last 6 games and if so then he will be even better, maybe best QB in the NFL better.

I don't disagree with your point. 

 

Ah, I see.

Yeah, I can see your point on INT's.  He's always been something of a turnover prone QB, and that probably won't change as a Pro, I'd agree.

Happily, I do think he has the talent and potential to overcome that issue, and in point of fact while he had a fair few INT's last year, he was better than I expected on that front regardless.

[14 in Green]

2 hours ago, King P said:

I think Darnold is going to mask alot of Gase's coaching deficiencies (specifically as a playcaller), similar to what Rodgers did for McCarthy

This is gonna be a fun season

Props for the new avatar. Sad news about Whitaker...

[Legend Killa7]

anyone else find it funny we have a "peace frog" debating a "war fish"?  Only Jetnation....

[Warfish]

17 minutes ago, nico002 said:

You don’t know what you’re watching. Darnold is absolutely an elite talent when it comes to accuracy and throwing with anticipation. Watch him complete 65% - 70% after he has the benefit of a QB friendly system and dump off to Bell.

Nothing would make me happier.

Like I said, there is a disconnect.  Accuracy seems to be being defined differently by different folks.  One throw is not accuracy, it's one throw.  Accuracy is all the throws together.   Darnold can and is ultra-accurate on individual throws, more than expected for his youth and experience.  He is not ultra-accurate when his season is taken as a whole.  

[Lupz27]

1 hour ago, Spoot-Face said:

Why do you only have 1 pair of boner pants??!!

For god sakes, man, get with the program!

Maybe because I’m a Jets fan?

[nico002]

16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Nothing would make me happier.

Like I said, there is a disconnect.  Accuracy seems to be being defined differently by different folks.  One throw is not accuracy, it's one throw.  Accuracy is all the throws together.   Darnold can and is ultra-accurate on individual throws, more than expected for his youth and experience.  He is not ultra-accurate when his season is taken as a whole.  

Your argument is wrong. He isn't inconsistently accurate. He doesn't miss easy throws or have long lapses where of inaccuracy. He's always accurate. He simply played for a terrible team, with terrible coaching, with terrible injuries around him, and he was a 21 year old rookie. There is a huge difference between someone like Sanchez who literally could miss a slant by 2 yards and Darnold- yet they were both in the 50%s as rookies. 

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Your argument is wrong. He isn't inconsistently accurate. He doesn't miss easy throws or have long lapses where of inaccuracy. He's always accurate. He simply played for a terrible team, with terrible coaching, with terrible injuries around him, and he was a 21 year old rookie. There is a huge difference between someone like Sanchez who literally could miss a slant by 2 yards and Darnold- yet they were both in the 50%s as rookies. 

With a center who could not properly shot gun snap it to him. 

Fish isn’t very bright and needs to look at “stats” to continuously make a flawed argument then resort to hyperbole about some of us saying Sam is “accurate” v “inaccurate” and him saying we’re calling Sam super elite or ultra elite. 

[Warfish]

10 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Your argument is wrong. He isn't inconsistently accurate. He doesn't miss easy throws or have long lapses where of inaccuracy. He's always accurate. He simply played for a terrible team, with terrible coaching, with terrible injuries around him, and he was a 21 year old rookie. There is a huge difference between someone like Sanchez who literally could miss a slant by 2 yards and Darnold- yet they were both in the 50%s as rookies. 

Consistently accurate QB's don't have sub-60% completion rates, no matter what excuses you make.  

Coaching does not make an accurate pass to an open receiver be incomplete.  A terrible team doesn't either.

A terrible pass-catcher can, by dropping the ball.  And we dropped a fair share, albeit not enough to make 57% into "elite".

And terrible (or just bad or inexperienced) DECISIONS by the QB (i.e. the he is a rookie item) can certainly have an effect.  An 'accurate' pass thrown to the wrong place (like triple coverage or a defenders chest) will certainly hurt completion percentage.  But then again, is that really being "accurate"?

End of the day, we can agree to disagree.  I would say Darnold is an impressively accurate QB at times, and has the potential to be materially more accurate overall in his future.  Nothing to worry about yet, and much to look forward to seeing in 2019.  

If you think he is already the 'best you've ever seen' in term of accuracy, ok.  We can agree to disagree.

[HelenOfTroy]

1 hour ago, Grandy said:

I think this is the most realistic statement in analyzing Darnold at this point in time. 

I agree with this as well.

[Peace Frog]

35 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Consistently accurate QB's don't have sub-60% completion rates, no matter what excuses you make.  

Coaching does not make an accurate pass to an open receiver be incomplete.  A terrible team doesn't either.

A terrible pass-catcher can, by dropping the ball.  And we dropped a fair share, albeit not enough to make 57% into "elite".

And terrible (or just bad or inexperienced) DECISIONS by the QB (i.e. the he is a rookie item) can certainly have an effect.  An 'accurate' pass thrown to the wrong place (like triple coverage or a defenders chest) will certainly hurt completion percentage.  But then again, is that really being "accurate"?

End of the day, we can agree to disagree.  I would say Darnold is an impressively accurate QB at times, and has the potential to be materially more accurate overall in his future.  Nothing to worry about yet, and much to look forward to seeing in 2019.  

If you think he is already the 'best you've ever seen' in term of accuracy, ok.  We can agree to disagree.

We had 19 drops last year and if 13 of them were Sam’s, that makes him a 61% thrower and “accurate” by your standards. 

Facts. Metrics. Stats. 

Please stop your nonsense. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Rsherman28 said:

A brief breakdown of what you mean? 

You can basically look at his play calling in Denver and say well he had Peynton. You can basically look at his play calling in Miami and say well he had Tannehill and a group of back ups.

Seems to be a coach that molds to what his Quarterback is good at. If Darnold is the real deal, the play book will be wide open

He won with Tebow.  He won with an all time great who his playcalling help him have his greatest season and set records.  He won with Tannehill and competed with a roster of scrub QBs.

But a 21 year old, learning as he goes, no matter the potential will make up for his playcalling deficiencies.  LOL

[Spoot-Face]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Maybe because I’m a Jets fan?

Well, I can't argue with that rebuttal.

[NYJ1]

8 hours ago, CTM said:

Good stuff. Hes fun to watch for sure, glad we have him

I'd rather watch Meg Ryan having an orgasm than see Sammy sling it all over the field.

[Lupz27]

57 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

I'd rather watch Meg Ryan having an orgasm than see Sammy sling it all over the field.

But what if watching Sammy sling it around the field gives you an orgasm?

[TNJet]

6 hours ago, Savage69 said:

Bowles was excited when he got his Gladys Knight and the Pips tickets..

Yes he was....he blinked twice because of it. 

[Jetster]

15 hours ago, Warfish said:

And you know it because you see it, even if that's not represented in his actual performance metrics?

There certainly seems to be a disconnect here at JN. 

We have a QB who is already described by Jets Fans as "better-than-elite accuracy", or as you describe him, "one of the best you've ever seen"......yet he was below the Mendoza line in terms of completing passes with a relatively high number of interceptions.  We were upper-middle in drops, so it's not drops by themselves hurting his rates.

So why is an elite, best ever, ultra-accurate QB only completing 57% of his passes and throwing above-average INT's in a league where 65%-73% is elite?

Is it possible Jets Fans are being a little but hyperbolic describing a rookie was was at times and in certain moments very good.....but still overall hit-or-miss as rookies usually are, with terms like "better than elite" and "best I've ever seen"?   

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

Stop...please...MAYBE just maybe it was because our Oline was bottom 5 in run blocking, Bates loved the 1st & 2nd down runs for a loss of 2 & he had numerous 3rd & longs to try to convert with no Quincy Enunwa, a rookie RB, a rookie TE, an UDFA in Burnett, a guy that retired before the season began in Kearse, and a frustrated Anderson with safety help always rolled to him.

Do people watch this team or not?

[jack48]

22 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

It's only a minute or so worth of content, but very cool listening to Gase break down film of Darnold.

 

There are about 20 minutes of good stuff on Facebook.  1 Jets Plaza, is it?

[jack48]

10 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Stop...please...MAYBE just maybe it was because our Oline was bottom 5 in run blocking, Bates loved the 1st & 2nd down runs for a loss of 2 & he had numerous 3rd & longs to try to convert with no Quincy Enunwa, a rookie RB, a rookie TE, an UDFA in Burnett, a guy that retired before the season began in Kearse, and a frustrated Anderson with safety help always rolled to him.

Do people watch this team or not?

And, apparently, he was one receiver focused on most of the plays he designed, with other receivers going through the motions.  Gase tries to get guys open on all three levels.

[jack48]

15 hours ago, Warfish said:

Consistently accurate QB's don't have sub-60% completion rates, no matter what excuses you make.  

Coaching does not make an accurate pass to an open receiver be incomplete.  A terrible team doesn't either.

A terrible pass-catcher can, by dropping the ball.  And we dropped a fair share, albeit not enough to make 57% into "elite".

And terrible (or just bad or inexperienced) DECISIONS by the QB (i.e. the he is a rookie item) can certainly have an effect.  An 'accurate' pass thrown to the wrong place (like triple coverage or a defenders chest) will certainly hurt completion percentage.  But then again, is that really being "accurate"?

End of the day, we can agree to disagree.  I would say Darnold is an impressively accurate QB at times, and has the potential to be materially more accurate overall in his future.  Nothing to worry about yet, and much to look forward to seeing in 2019.  

If you think he is already the 'best you've ever seen' in term of accuracy, ok.  We can agree to disagree.

you can be accurate as hell if you never take risks.  That is the Neil O'Donnell way

[Jetster]

Very happy to see more & more Jet fans joining the Jetster in my optimism for the 2019 season. Because of Sam, this team as a whole will truly believe they can win against ANYBODY. They have too many leaders now to follow which limits the doubts that young players develop on bad teams with no leadership i.e. Bucs with Winston. 

Go back & Listen to Gregg Williams talk about attitude. Confidence is contagious & the Jets will have confident players at every position this year. Quincy & Anderson are confident vets, KO has great leadership skills, Mosely is a leader & will call defenses, Anderson on the Dline, Bell at RB, Adams at safety, QW is quietly confident and finally most importantly Gase confidence in Darnold who himself is very confident. 

Every team has holes. Our question marks are Trumaine Johnson & Roberts, and Harrison, Beachum, Winters, Shell bouncing back this year. But with Gase speeding up the offense & letting Sam rip it, that alone will fire up the Oline & produce a different rhythm compared to Bates slow boring run twice system. There is a reason Bates is not coaching this year folks. 

Gase has no fear about his job, Douglas has his back & just came from an organization with a young up & coming QB in Wentz, and the best way to get these guys up to speed is to let them play. Bowles was a conservative chicken with no freaking balls at all! I still go back to that Cincy opener at home, Jets go right down the field & score, crowd is pumped. We get the ball back, go right down the field, ball is 1/2 yard short of the goalie, 4th down, crowd anticipates going for it, he sends out the FG unit & he misses the FG! They needed that horn from game show failures, WONK, WONK, WHAAAAAH. Bowles in a nutshell. Thank god those days are over.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

I find it incredibly difficult to have any confidence in a white dude my age who says sh*t like 'sometimes you got to let a guy be a baller.' 

[Jetster]

7 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I find it incredibly difficult to have any confidence in a white dude my age who says sh*t like 'sometimes you got to let a guy be a baller.' 

Of course you do.

[Savage69]

16 hours ago, Legend Killa7 said:

anyone else find it funny we have a "peace frog" debating a "war fish"?  Only Jetnation....

I told him he needs a name change to War Frog..

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, jack48 said:

you can be accurate as hell if you never take risks.  That is the Neil O'Donnell way

Absolutely true, as I believe slats has argued.

Chad Pennington would be a good example, his physical limitations and skillset was predominantly short to sorta-middle range safe passes made with solid accuracy (at least till later in his career when the injuries took their toll int hat regard).

In his case, he was often accurate overall, but not effective or productive in scoring points and taking requite risks.

Of course, elite QB's are both accurate (over 60% minimum, but mostly over 65%+) AND productive/effective.

That, we all hope, is where our man Sam will go.  I fully expect he should eclipse the Mendoza Line of 60% this season, especially with Bell and Crowder now in the mix.  It's an exciting time to be a Jets Fan when it comes to QB, more so that any time (IMO) since at least Pennington.  

[slats]

18 hours ago, johnnysd said:

It is the right approach with Sam. He will always be a gunslinger and has a lot of Favre in him. He will likely always throw more interceptions than some other elite QBs but will also win games by himself. Most fans will love him, but Sam WILL lose us a game maybe a pivotal one being too aggressive and the fans that really are still in a defensive mindset and love QBs like Alex Smith and think interceptions and completion percentage are everything will continue not liking him.

I'm with you, I don't want Sam to ever lose that gunslinger mentality. The greats all throw their share of interceptions. Brady threw double-digit ints his first six years as a starter, Drew Brees generally throws 'em in double-digits as well. These guys are considered to be two of the most accurate passers in the game today. 

As long as Sam is pushing the ball down the field and scoring points, I'm willing to accept that turnovers will sometimes result when the QB is being aggressive. 

17 hours ago, Warfish said:

Nothing would make me happier.

Like I said, there is a disconnect.  Accuracy seems to be being defined differently by different folks.  One throw is not accuracy, it's one throw.  Accuracy is all the throws together.   Darnold can and is ultra-accurate on individual throws, more than expected for his youth and experience.  He is not ultra-accurate when his season is taken as a whole.  

I'm looking forward to what he does this year. He was the youngest rookie to start an NFL season since at least the merger, and only had two years of starting experience in college. He had a steep learning curve. Sitting him with his "injury," was probably the best thing they could've done for him, because he was really starting to flounder there. Finished up the year, though, cranking it out with Robbie Anderson, Chris Herndon, and absolutely no one else to help him. And let's not even get started on the level of coaching. 

Bell and Crowder are major additions. Gase, whatever you think of him, mopped up the floor with Bowles over three years and at the very least represents an upgrade over what we had. You look at second year jumps from other QBs in recent years like Goff and Trubisky (who also changed head coaches from their first to second years) and there's a lot of reason for optimism. Coming out, Darnold was a better prospect than either of those guys. I'm expecting a big year. Not worried about your mendoza line at all.