Gase: "Sometimes you got to let a guy be a baller"

[Jetmech]

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/80045/amid-chaos-sam-darnold-gives-new-york-jets-something-to-believe-in

 

 

This was posted months ago but relates here. Dan made some good points about Gase/Darnold and specifically not taking away one of Sam’s best attributes.

 

 

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[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Jetster said:

Stop...please...MAYBE just maybe it was because our Oline was bottom 5 in run blocking, Bates loved the 1st & 2nd down runs for a loss of 2 & he had numerous 3rd & longs to try to convert with no Quincy Enunwa, a rookie RB, a rookie TE, an UDFA in Burnett, a guy that retired before the season began in Kearse, and a frustrated Anderson with safety help always rolled to him.

Do people watch this team or not?

Run blocking does not effect the accuracy of a pass.  Pass blocking can of course, if your QB is on the run all day long (as Darnold at times was), the QB will naturally be less accurate (a point I've not really seen raised yet, surprisingly, as it almost assuredly was a factor as well in Darnold's 57%).

The 3rd and Long could be a thing as well, we'd have to see if we were in third and long, or ran more often on 1st and 2nd, than most other NFL teams.  I simply don't have those stats at hand to support that argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were a factor as well.  I don't think any of us will miss bates, no matter what we think of Gase.

Again, who he was throwing to is mostly a factor if they drop the pass.  If the pass is accurate and to an open receiver, it should be completed unless the receiver drops it.  If the receiver isn't open, the QB should be throwing elsewhere to the guy that is open.  This isn;t really a criticism of a 22 year old rookie, more the natural observation of the challenges a rookie QB plays under, he needs time to learn who and where to throw the ball, when and when not to take risks.  His 57% is simply not elite, but he very clearly IMO showed flashes of the talent and abillity that will make him elite.

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+.  Yes, there were factors that limited him, that doesn't change the result, only explains some of the potential causes of his 57% completion rate.  But that seems to offend a great number of JN posters, who appear to want to demand we all agree that Darnold is elite now, period, no debate, no discussion, and that accuracy shouldn't be judged by the metrics almost everyone has always used for accuracy (till now).

End if the day, as I always say, this is my opinion.  Everyone else has every right to disagree, and to take it or leave it as they wish.

[Warfish]

 

Quote

I'm looking forward to what he does this year. He was the youngest rookie to start an NFL season since at least the merger, and only had two years of starting experience in college. He had a steep learning curve. Sitting him with his "injury," was probably the best thing they could've done for him, because he was really starting to flounder there. Finished up the year, though, cranking it out with Robbie Anderson, Chris Herndon, and absolutely no one else to help him. And let's not even get started on the level of coaching. 

Bell and Crowder are major additions. Gase, whatever you think of him, mopped up the floor with Bowles over three years and at the very least represents an upgrade over what we had. You look at second year jumps from other QBs in recent years like Goff and Trubisky (who also changed head coaches from their first to second years) and there's a lot of reason for optimism. Coming out, Darnold was a better prospect than either of those guys. I'm expecting a big year. Not worried about your mendoza line at all. 

+1, you and me both. 

I posted yesterday that 2019 will be the most exciting and anticipated camp, pre-season and season in a VERY long time.  And I absolutely meant it.  Jets Fans as a whole should be filled with optimism and hope and excitement, we have a solid roster, a new Head coach (like him or not, he cannot be worse than Bowles, especially on offense, right?), the best RB possible in Bell, the best slot WR available in Crowder, the best MLB available in Mosely, improvements on the O-Line (not enough, but some at least!). 

It's a great time to be a Jets Fan.

And as I've said elsewhere (repeatedly now), my opinion on accuracy is that Darnold was not elite in 2018.  But he has every potential and all the talent needed to be elite in his future.  If he's below 60% this year, that would surprise me tbqh.

[thebuzzardman]

Gase looking like Shane MacGowan there. 

[Peace Frog]

21 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+. 

And here's where we differ--where your hyperbole enters every discussion you have.  I said he was accurate, even IMHO an extremely naturally accurate thrower of the football.  Not elite accurate, not ultra accurate, not super accurate, not the most accurate ever.

Accurate.  It's in his DNA.

You said he was inaccurate.  I didn't stoop to claiming you said he was crappy, sh*tty, awful accuracy.  I objected to you saying simply that he is an inaccurate thrower of the football.

You claimed his comp % proved he was inaccurate and everyone basically disagreed with you that comp rate and accuracy are not similar metrics or concepts.

[JohnnyLV]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Run blocking does not effect the accuracy of a pass.  Pass blocking can of course, if your QB is on the run all day long (as Darnold at times was), the QB will naturally be less accurate (a point I've not really seen raised yet, surprisingly, as it almost assuredly was a factor as well in Darnold's 57%).

The 3rd and Long could be a thing as well, we'd have to see if we were in third and long, or ran more often on 1st and 2nd, than most other NFL teams.  I simply don't have those stats at hand to support that argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were a factor as well.  I don't think any of us will miss bates, no matter what we think of Gase.

Again, who he was throwing to is mostly a factor if they drop the pass.  If the pass is accurate and to an open receiver, it should be completed unless the receiver drops it.  If the receiver isn't open, the QB should be throwing elsewhere to the guy that is open.  This isn;t really a criticism of a 22 year old rookie, more the natural observation of the challenges a rookie QB plays under, he needs time to learn who and where to throw the ball, when and when not to take risks.  His 57% is simply not elite, but he very clearly IMO showed flashes of the talent and abillity that will make him elite.

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+.  Yes, there were factors that limited him, that doesn't change the result, only explains some of the potential causes of his 57% completion rate.  But that seems to offend a great number of JN posters, who appear to want to demand we all agree that Darnold is elite now, period, no debate, no discussion, and that accuracy shouldn't be judged by the metrics almost everyone has always used for accuracy (till now).

End if the day, as I always say, this is my opinion.  Everyone else has every right to disagree, and to take it or leave it as they wish.

The problem I have with this view is completion percentage is not directly related to a QBs accuracy. A 65% passer is not necessarily a more "accurate"  passer of the ball. Accuracy percentage is really a function of the offensive scheme, QB decisions, WR drops and situational passing. It does not really say much at all about ball placement, how catchable the ball is, pace and timing all which contribute to how "accurate" a QB throws a ball.

A ball can be accurate but batted down, difficult to catch (in certain situations a perfectly thrown ball can be very difficult to catch especially in the end zone or double coverage.

Completion percentage is helped by knowing where your outlet is and throwing the checkdown, turning down a deep throw, the play call itself. the offensive system, the level of OL pass blocking-if defenders are continuously in your face it becomes super hard to make a completion as opposed to a clean pocket.

Having said that all other factors the same, a more accurate passer with have a higher completion percentage. There is a reason Brees has 70% completions.

In Darnold's case I think the completion percentage is entirely misleading. To my eye he is among the most elite I have ever seen in ball placement, catchability, pace, timing and ball path. 

So where's the disconnect?

What people ignore with Sam is that he was frickin 20 years old at the start of training camp and barely 21 during the season with only 2 years of prior NFL experience. Hell, he is still younger than 2 of the 3 first rounders taken this year who came out early and only 2 months older than Murray as well.

Darnold's completion percentage (and interceptions) are ALL about 3.5 games where his maturity and lack of experience led to disaster games. It really wasn't an indication of his accuracy but just the growing pains of a very very young QB. The second half of Cleveland game (where he forced things) the Min game and the Miami game are why his completion percentage was low and also account for 66% of his interceptions. The Min and Miami games were doubly bad because he was not completing passes and also throwing almost twice as much as normal. He struggled against Chicago but they were tough on a lot of QBs, and he wasnt terrible with a rating of around 76. He had a low completion percentage in the Denver game but if you remember he was actually very effective in that game and had a QB rating of around 100.

Outside of that he was very solid in completion percentage, including 80% in one game, and 66% in the last 4 games.

It was youth and inexperience along with TERRIBLE coaching-(Bates did nothing to help Sam in the games he struggled, he literally passed MORE and hund Sam out to dry) that led to a low completion percentage, not his actual throwing accuracy,

Frankly in Gase's system and with Bell as an outlet I would be shocked if he wasnt a 65%+ accuracy guy this year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

To my eye he is among the most elite I have ever seen in ball placement, catchability, pace, timing and ball path.

I can't agree with that based on 2018, to my eye.  But agree to disagree.

Quote

Frankly in Gase's system and with Bell as an outlet I would be shocked if he wasnt a 65%+ accuracy guy this year.

That would be stellar, and I hope thats the case. 

[HelenOfTroy]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Run blocking does not effect the accuracy of a pass.  Pass blocking can of course, if your QB is on the run all day long (as Darnold at times was), the QB will naturally be less accurate (a point I've not really seen raised yet, surprisingly, as it almost assuredly was a factor as well in Darnold's 57%).

The 3rd and Long could be a thing as well, we'd have to see if we were in third and long, or ran more often on 1st and 2nd, than most other NFL teams.  I simply don't have those stats at hand to support that argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were a factor as well.  I don't think any of us will miss bates, no matter what we think of Gase.

Again, who he was throwing to is mostly a factor if they drop the pass.  If the pass is accurate and to an open receiver, it should be completed unless the receiver drops it.  If the receiver isn't open, the QB should be throwing elsewhere to the guy that is open.  This isn;t really a criticism of a 22 year old rookie, more the natural observation of the challenges a rookie QB plays under, he needs time to learn who and where to throw the ball, when and when not to take risks.  His 57% is simply not elite, but he very clearly IMO showed flashes of the talent and abillity that will make him elite.

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+.  Yes, there were factors that limited him, that doesn't change the result, only explains some of the potential causes of his 57% completion rate.  But that seems to offend a great number of JN posters, who appear to want to demand we all agree that Darnold is elite now, period, no debate, no discussion, and that accuracy shouldn't be judged by the metrics almost everyone has always used for accuracy (till now).

End if the day, as I always say, this is my opinion.  Everyone else has every right to disagree, and to take it or leave it as they wish.

Valid opinions.

[Patriot Killa]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Run blocking does not effect the accuracy of a pass.  Pass blocking can of course, if your QB is on the run all day long (as Darnold at times was), the QB will naturally be less accurate (a point I've not really seen raised yet, surprisingly, as it almost assuredly was a factor as well in Darnold's 57%).

The 3rd and Long could be a thing as well, we'd have to see if we were in third and long, or ran more often on 1st and 2nd, than most other NFL teams.  I simply don't have those stats at hand to support that argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were a factor as well.  I don't think any of us will miss bates, no matter what we think of Gase.

Again, who he was throwing to is mostly a factor if they drop the pass.  If the pass is accurate and to an open receiver, it should be completed unless the receiver drops it.  If the receiver isn't open, the QB should be throwing elsewhere to the guy that is open.  This isn;t really a criticism of a 22 year old rookie, more the natural observation of the challenges a rookie QB plays under, he needs time to learn who and where to throw the ball, when and when not to take risks.  His 57% is simply not elite, but he very clearly IMO showed flashes of the talent and abillity that will make him elite.

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+.  Yes, there were factors that limited him, that doesn't change the result, only explains some of the potential causes of his 57% completion rate.  But that seems to offend a great number of JN posters, who appear to want to demand we all agree that Darnold is elite now, period, no debate, no discussion, and that accuracy shouldn't be judged by the metrics almost everyone has always used for accuracy (till now).

End if the day, as I always say, this is my opinion.  Everyone else has every right to disagree, and to take it or leave it as they wish.

On point, my guy. 

Sam flashed in moments but he’s not elite yet. He’s not even above average. This year I think he will be. 

Not last year though.

People riding off hope so hard that they are turning it into something else.

he flashed in moments and had some throws where he put it in really tight windows. That’s really great and I’m content with his first season..especially the way it ended but we have to see more first. 

[Legend Killa7]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Run blocking does not effect the accuracy of a pass.  Pass blocking can of course, if your QB is on the run all day long (as Darnold at times was), the QB will naturally be less accurate (a point I've not really seen raised yet, surprisingly, as it almost assuredly was a factor as well in Darnold's 57%).

The 3rd and Long could be a thing as well, we'd have to see if we were in third and long, or ran more often on 1st and 2nd, than most other NFL teams.  I simply don't have those stats at hand to support that argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were a factor as well.  I don't think any of us will miss bates, no matter what we think of Gase.

Again, who he was throwing to is mostly a factor if they drop the pass.  If the pass is accurate and to an open receiver, it should be completed unless the receiver drops it.  If the receiver isn't open, the QB should be throwing elsewhere to the guy that is open.  This isn;t really a criticism of a 22 year old rookie, more the natural observation of the challenges a rookie QB plays under, he needs time to learn who and where to throw the ball, when and when not to take risks.  His 57% is simply not elite, but he very clearly IMO showed flashes of the talent and abillity that will make him elite.

Honestly, I don't get all the faux outrage and objections.  My view is basically that Darnold is not elite yet, because he simply isn't, as a 22 year old rookie QB with much to learn and improve on, but that he showed, clearly and unquestionably, the potential to be elite.  He made soem amazing individual throws, but was not accurate to a point where he should be described as elite in a league where elite is 70%+.  Yes, there were factors that limited him, that doesn't change the result, only explains some of the potential causes of his 57% completion rate.  But that seems to offend a great number of JN posters, who appear to want to demand we all agree that Darnold is elite now, period, no debate, no discussion, and that accuracy shouldn't be judged by the metrics almost everyone has always used for accuracy (till now).

End if the day, as I always say, this is my opinion.  Everyone else has every right to disagree, and to take it or leave it as they wish.

I sometimes think you just like to "pick on Darnold" but this is a very well thought out post.  Lot of good points.  hey - hopefully he makes "the jump" this year!!

[GREENBEAN]

Nice to have a head coach that actually gets excited about football. Haven't been this excited for a season since 2011 (coming off back to back AFCCG appearances).

Well that’s not a good comparable man


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[fltflo]

Seems like so long ago......

Rex and Gase would have made a lethal combo, especially if Rex was running his defense with a two TD lead in most games. Hoping Gase and Willams will be even better.


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[Fed Hill Jet]

On 7/17/2019 at 2:03 PM, BUM-KNEE said:

Seems like so long ago......

I still miss him

[Jethead]

Revis wasn't elite his first year. Either was Adams (a poke in the eye to those who deserve it). Both made the jump. Sam will be next!

Can't wait!

[InstantClassic]

Let’s hope he feels the same way about Leveon

[Bowles Movement]

On 7/17/2019 at 8:45 PM, Warfish said:

And you know it because you see it, even if that's not represented in his actual performance metrics?

There certainly seems to be a disconnect here at JN. 

We have a QB who is already described by Jets Fans as "better-than-elite accuracy", or as you describe him, "one of the best you've ever seen"......yet he was below the Mendoza line in terms of completing passes with a relatively high number of interceptions.  We were upper-middle in drops, so it's not drops by themselves hurting his rates.

So why is an elite, best ever, ultra-accurate QB only completing 57% of his passes and throwing above-average INT's in a league where 65%-73% is elite?

Is it possible Jets Fans are being a little but hyperbolic describing a rookie was was at times and in certain moments very good.....but still overall hit-or-miss as rookies usually are, with terms like "better than elite" and "best I've ever seen"?   

Can Darnold make ultra-accurate individual throws?  Absolutely he can, and he did.

Is he "better-then-elite" or "best ever" accurate overall.....not yet he isn't.

Maybe he is accurate but had trouble diagnosing coverages?  Or maybe the receiver was covered well and Sam forced the throw due to pressure, game situation, or just inexperience.  I know he had several end of game desperation heaves intercepted, so there is that.  Maybe he was running for his life when the WR was open on his break?  These scenarios could exist and he could still be accurate.   Just a possible explanation for you to consider.    A useful statistic , if available, would be misses to “open WR “either with or without pressure 

[Jetster]

Maybe he was playing for 3 idiots in Bowles/Rogers/Bates + playing with a guy who retired before the season started (Kearse), 3 RBs that are average at best (Crowell, Powell, McGuire), and 2 of them got injured, a rookie TE, 2 rookie UDFAs in Cannon & Burnett, he lost his most versatile WR in Quincy, 3 of the starting Oline on a line that started out as average, and a defense that couldn't hold leads when Sam gave them one. Maybe these were factors in his low completion rate? Maybe? 

[FidelioJet]

3 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

Maybe he is accurate but had trouble diagnosing coverages?  Or maybe the receiver was covered well and Sam forced the throw due to pressure, game situation, or just inexperience.  I know he had several end of game desperation heaves intercepted, so there is that.  Maybe he was running for his life when the WR was open on his break?  These scenarios could exist and he could still be accurate.   Just a possible explanation for you to consider.    A useful statistic , if available, would be misses to “open WR “either with or without pressure 

This is the key driver behind his low completion %.  It has NOTHING to do with "accuracy".  Sam did not miss a lot of throws.  Meaning he rarely had open guys and just missed the throw .  He had to force so much because guys simply weren't open.  

Yes, maybe he didn't find the open guy as quickly or as much as you would like - but "accuracy" isn't even remotely the issue with Sam.  He has pinpoint accuracy. 

Finding an open guys was his problem.  and it was a combination of inexperience and more importantly lack of talent.

[FidelioJet]

Y'all looking way too much into completion %...The bottom line is below is actuals, the top line is if he had one more completion a game.  so one more completion a game and he's at 61% . 

with the talent level the jets had last year we need to stop looking at that number and calling it "accuracy".   Heck a healthy Q would have easily been worth an extra completion a week .  

[ljr]

I'd rather watch Meg Ryan having an orgasm than see Sammy sling it all over the field.

Are you sure?




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[BUM-KNEE]

9 minutes ago, ljr said:

 

Are you sure?




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[Jetster]

3 minutes ago, BUM-KNEE said:

A lot of women don't age well. 

[BUM-KNEE]

10 minutes ago, Jetster said:

A lot of women don't age well. 

I think she had some work done. (in a 3rd world country)

[Jetster]

40 minutes ago, BUM-KNEE said:

I think she had some work done. (in a 3rd world country)

Women think they look good after face lifts. They look like their morphing into the joker.