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KRL Camp Notes (7/29/19)

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

We're trading people away for a LB that the board killed Macc for drafting.  Because he wouldnt stay healthy I think it was.

Two days on the practice notes and now hes a stud, a big steal

LOL

I don't think anyone called him a stud. If someone said that he is, or even looks like a big steal, I must have missed it. 

I get what you're saying, your general premise isn't wrong. But as someone that generally enjoys your positivity... I guess I'm just saying that the super extreme hyperbole you (and I, to be fair) knock Mac haters over works both ways. 

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13 hours ago, kdels62 said:

He’s a beast. Just as athletic as Darron Lee without the entitlement. I pegged him as Darron Lee with a brain and a heart early on and it’s looking like that’s what he’s becoming.

Gase could not wait to ge rid of Lee.  The minute he got te,[orary control he sent him out

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8 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

We're trading people away for a LB that the board killed Macc for drafting.  Because he wouldnt stay healthy I think it was.

Two days on the practice notes and now hes a stud, a big steal

LOL

Lmaooooo never fails around here 

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37 minutes ago, jack48 said:

Gase could not wait to ge rid of Lee.  The minute he got te,[orary control he sent him out

Lee is an example of why you do deep diligence on your high draft picks.  He may be athletic, but seems like a bad guy.  

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8 hours ago, kdels62 said:

First of all. Very few people here knew who Blake Cashman was when we drafted him. People called him a special teamer when he was one of the top off ball linebacker prospects for anyone doing a deep dive into those prospects. 

Secondly, Cashman can be very good and still be a bad draft pick. He was a bad pick because we had just spent a boatload if money on Mosley, a lot of Williamson the year before, we still had Darron Lee and we re-signed Neville Hewitt. That’s a lot of resources before adding Cashman to the mix.

He was called a special teamer by the "pros" covering the draft, if he makes the roster.  No one called him one of the top anythings.  He had surgery on both shoulders.  His health was part of the story.

I hope youre right, hope he is a top off ball LB prospect and can contribute more than just STs.  But STs from a 5th isnt a crime either 

I will never get the overemphasis some put on money spent.  Because we signed Mosley and Williamson we shouldnt draft a good LB if hes there in the 5th?  Seriously?  Because of Lee?  Who the whole world knew would be gone soon, would never have made the 2019 roster no matter who they drafter?  Hewitt is a jag, he's the current fan favorite who will never play for any reason other than a few injuries to the unit

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12 hours ago, roscoeword said:

It seems that many times in drafts, there is a big steal at linebacker. A fairly low pick who becomes a stud. OK, it can happen in a lot of positions, but I recall it happening a lot at linebacker, just can't think of examples. Maybe it's our turn to get lucky? 

 

7 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

I don't think anyone called him a stud. If someone said that he is, or even looks like a big steal, I must have missed it. 

I get what you're saying, your general premise isn't wrong. But as someone that generally enjoys your positivity... I guess I'm just saying that the super extreme hyperbole you (and I, to be fair) knock Mac haters over works both ways. 

Took it as he is being looked at that way.

Westfield, Clowney, Ratliff.  There no shortage of the studs we stumble upon.  LOL

Hey, I hope he develops into a productive player.  But I'll take it slower than those already talk about him replacing Avery  

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11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

He was called a special teamer by the "pros" covering the draft.  No one called him one of the top anythings.  I hope youre right, hope he is a top off ball LB prospect and can contribute more than just STs.  But STs from a 5th isnt a crime either 

I will never get the overemphasis some put on money spent.  Because we signed Mosley and Williamson we shouldnt draft a good LB if hes there in the 5th?  Seriously?  Because of Lee?  Who the whole world knew would be gone soon, would never have made the 2019 roster no matter who they drafter?  Hewitt is a jag, he's the current fan favorite who will never play for any reason other than a few injuries to the unit

Draft Network had him as a Day 2 pick and PFF had him as the 3rd rated off ball linebacker. He was well liked beyond the TV guys who only watch QBs and receivers. 

While I think positional value is weighed too heavily by a lot of posters, it wasn’t a great look for Macc. We spent resources at ILB and were severely lacking at CB and OL, so using a pick on a position of strength, when decent prospects at positions of need were available was a bad thing. 

In the end, I really like Blake Cashman and if we’re on the verge of having a surplus of talent at ILB then we need to use it to improve our dearth of talent at other positions.

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31 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

He was called a special teamer by the "pros" covering the draft.  No one called him one of the top anythings.  I hope youre right, hope he is a top off ball LB prospect and can contribute more than just STs.  But STs from a 5th isnt a crime either 

I will never get the overemphasis some put on money spent.  Because we signed Mosley and Williamson we shouldnt draft a good LB if hes there in the 5th?  Seriously?  Because of Lee?  Who the whole world knew would be gone soon, would never have made the 2019 roster no matter who they drafter?  Hewitt is a jag, he's the current fan favorite who will never play for any reason other than a few injuries to the unit

I feel similarly when we're talking about how much money a player gets. The best one was McCown's $10 mil last year when we still had another $20 mil or so sitting in the bank.  Who cares if we give someone a little more to come to our undesirable team?  Sam seemed to like having McCown around and is still leaning on him now. I'd say it was money well spent. Especially when we had so much left to play with. 

Where I separate with you is with the Cashman pick specifically. Now that he's here of course I'm rooting for him to be the next Zach Thomas who surprises the league by becoming one of the best 5th rd LB's to come into the league in years.  That said, he was a dumb pick and one that highlights why so many wanted Macc to go.  We had LB's that were more than adequate and had glaring needs at CB and OL. (you and I have been here before lol)  David Edwards was still on the board as were a few others that could very well be productive projects at either of those positions. I also liked Derwin Gray and Isaiah Prince from Ohio State. 

The 5th rd back is a real crap shoot and there are arguments as to what types of players we should take there, but OL and CB were where we should have been looking. Taking an often injured and small LB, who just may work out, was not the best pick. I think that's the real issue. 

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11 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

I feel similarly when we're talking about how much money a player gets. The best one was McCown's $10 mil last year when we still had another $20 mil or so sitting in the bank.  Who cares if we give someone a little more to come to our undesirable team?  Sam seemed to like having McCown around and is still leaning on him now. I'd say it was money well spent. Especially when we had so much left to play with. 

Where I separate with you is with the Cashman pick specifically. Now that he's here of course I'm rooting for him to be the next Zach Thomas who surprises the league by becoming one of the best 5th rd LB's to come into the league in years.  That said, he was a dumb pick and one that highlights why so many wanted Macc to go.  We had LB's that were more than adequate and had glaring needs at CB and OL. (you and I have been here before lol)  David Edwards was still on the board as were a few others that could very well be productive projects at either of those positions. I also liked Derwin Gray and Isaiah Prince from Ohio State. 

The 5th rd back is a real crap shoot and there are arguments as to what types of players we should take there, but OL and CB were where we should have been looking. Taking an often injured and small LB, who just may work out, was not the best pick. I think that's the real issue. 

Seperate from me because you want him to be the next Zach Thomas?  Who says I dont want him to become a stud?  I would like nothing more than that.  My only point was he wasnt mocked as the next ZT and talk about injuries wasnt just nonsensical talk, he had surgery to both shoulders.  I assume that means they were injured.  ANd that at 5 you do draft for STs.  No matter how much someone says you dont.  Parcells drafted for STs all over the draft, he always said the quickest way to steal wins was to build a strong STs unit, its one of his things.  Especially given how much of a crap shoot drafting in the 5th is.  If he can become a regular contributor to the starting D that much better.

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40 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

PFF had him as the 3rd rated off ball linebacker. He was well liked beyond the TV guys who only watch QBs and receivers. 

No offense, what does this even mean?

Hes a LB.  I look at his whole game.  I dont know that hes the 3rd rated anything and what that has to do with him ever being a regular contributor at LB.

There were a lot of write ups on Coleman just like this, and I'd be happy with it from a 5th.  I hope youre right, we'd be better for it:

The New York Jets selected linebacker Blake Cashman with the 157th overall pick 2019 NFL Draft. There is no guarantee that the fifth-round selection from Minnesota will definitely make the opening day roster but I would not bet against it. The 6-1, 237-pounder may not have superior athletic ability but he owns a motor that never stops and he’s known as a tough, gritty competitor.

He led Minnesota in tackles last year (104) as a WILL linebacker, including 15 tackles for loss. He chipped in with 2.5 sacks and was named to the second-team All-Big Ten squad. Cashman certainly won’t dazzle you with power and speed but don’t bet against him being a solid special teams performer in the NFL and a decent backup linebacker to boot.

Cashman had surgery on both shoulders last year so that scenario has to be monitored in training camp. He projects as a prototypical special teams player and reserve linebacker at the next level. You know he’ll be playing with a huge chip on his shoulder. Walk-ons always do. Even veteran Jets players should be inspired by his competitiveness and love for the game this upcoming season.

 

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13 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

No offense, what does this even mean?

Hes a LB.  I look at his whole game.  I dont know that hes the 3rd rated anything and what that has to do with him ever being a regular contributor at LB.

There were a lot of write ups on Coleman just like this, and I'd be happy with it from a 5th.  I hope youre right, we'd be better for it:

The New York Jets selected linebacker Blake Cashman with the 157th overall pick 2019 NFL Draft. There is no guarantee that the fifth-round selection from Minnesota will definitely make the opening day roster but I would not bet against it. The 6-1, 237-pounder may not have superior athletic ability but he owns a motor that never stops and he’s known as a tough, gritty competitor.

He led Minnesota in tackles last year (104) as a WILL linebacker, including 15 tackles for loss. He chipped in with 2.5 sacks and was named to the second-team All-Big Ten squad. Cashman certainly won’t dazzle you with power and speed but don’t bet against him being a solid special teams performer in the NFL and a decent backup linebacker to boot.

Cashman had surgery on both shoulders last year so that scenario has to be monitored in training camp. He projects as a prototypical special teams player and reserve linebacker at the next level. You know he’ll be playing with a huge chip on his shoulder. Walk-ons always do. Even veteran Jets players should be inspired by his competitiveness and love for the game this upcoming season.

 

What it means is that Cashman produced better last year than any linebacker besides Devin Bush and Devin White. PFF measured Cashman’s body of work and saw a player better than publications that are usually quick to dismiss a walk-on from Minnesota. Add that to his athletic profile and you have a guy with a bunch of potential.

But the crux of my argument is this - if Cashman looks capable of starting in this league then the team should look to trade Williamson. That doesn’t mean that Williamson isn’t better than Cashman but it means that Williamson, Mosley and Cashman (if he looks good) is surplus talent and only one of those guys has trade value.

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6 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

But the crux of my argument is this - if Cashman looks capable of starting in this league then the team should look to trade Williamson. That doesn’t mean that Williamson isn’t better than Cashman but it means that Williamson, Mosley and Cashman (if he looks good) is surplus talent and only one of those guys has trade value.

Absolutely not. 

Can Cashman endure a full NFL season, undersized guys have many injury issues like he's had in his NCAA career. 

Williamson is a solid LB just like DeMario Davis was here you don't weaken the position and roll the dice on an unproven rookie. 

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6 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Absolutely not. 

Can Cashman endure a full NFL season, undersized guys have many injury issues like he's had in his NCAA career. 

Williamson is a solid LB just like DeMario Davis was here you don't weaken the position and roll the dice on an unproven rookie. 

If Cashman can start and splits time with Neville Hewitt, is that really much worse than Williamson? Hewitt played fine for 4 games last year alongside Williamson and Mosley is supposed to be better than Williamson. Add to that the possibility that we can upgrade CBs, OL or Safety depth by moving Williamson and it’s a no brainer (if Cashman is capable of starting).

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3 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

If Cashman can start and splits time with Neville Hewitt, is that really much worse than Williamson? Hewitt played fine for 4 games last year alongside Williamson and Mosley is supposed to be better than Williamson.

Understood Mosley is better than Williamson but cant surround Mosley with JAG's or his play will suffer. 

Depth isn't a bad thing to have at the LB position. 

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4 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Absolutely not. 

Can Cashman endure a full NFL season, undersized guys have many injury issues like he's had in his NCAA career. 

Williamson is a solid LB just DeMario Davis was here you don't weaken the position and roll the dice on an unproven rookie. 

Adding to this.  GW is known for rotating his players frequently.  Why would we ship out or 2nd best ILB to leave us with no depth to rotate in from.  We will have 2 on the field at times.  That means we need at least 3 healthy and capable ones suited up and at least one more playing ST for emergency depth.  We have no idea how any of the guys not named Mosley or Williamson are going to fit into the new defensive scheme so it's really way to early to think about trading away a starter.  

TBH I don't really see any positions where we have enough depth of talent to talk about trading players out.  We may upgrade by picking up other teams' cuts but I don't see us having the luxury of trading players out at this point.

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24 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

What it means is that Cashman produced better last year than any linebacker besides Devin Bush and Devin White. PFF measured Cashman’s body of work and saw a player better than publications that are usually quick to dismiss a walk-on from Minnesota. Add that to his athletic profile and you have a guy with a bunch of potential.

But the crux of my argument is this - if Cashman looks capable of starting in this league then the team should look to trade Williamson. That doesn’t mean that Williamson isn’t better than Cashman but it means that Williamson, Mosley and Cashman (if he looks good) is surplus talent and only one of those guys has trade value.

I hope youre right.  But I'm not buying what PFF may have sold to its prescribers.   

And every publication, every write up is he does what he does with his motor, that hes NOT athletic, not a natural athlete, so again, dont know where it came from but hope youre right.

Either way, we need two inside LBs, why would or should we trade one of them away and leave the team with three?  

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26 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I hope youre right.  But I'm not buying what PFF may have sold to its prescribers.   

And every publication, every write up is he does what he does with his motor, that hes NOT athletic, not a natural athlete, so again, dont know where it came from but hope youre right.

Either way, we need two inside LBs, why would or should we trade one of them away and leave the team with three?  

That motor sh*t is what they say before they run.  Cashman is small and NOT long.  He is also not particularly strong which is bad when you consider his short arms.  His speed, burst and agility scores were all in the 85-95 percentile range.  I think I liked what I read about Burr-Kirven a little better, but this kid can fly.  

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over analysis on cashman.  you cant expect studs who can start at positions of need in the 5th round.  you take shots on guys that have some traits you like, ie freak athlete or smarts or non-stop motor or some stand out tape, etc. With good to decent drafting, these guys provide depth and fill the ST squad, with luck you get an eventual starter.  

I cant see the point of lamenting question marks at a few positions.  The staff sees where there is weakness and it makes preseason more interesting to see how such spots are addressed.  

  

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3 hours ago, jack48 said:

Gase could not wait to ge rid of Lee.  The minute he got te,[orary control he sent him out

 

3 hours ago, varjet said:

Lee is an example of why you do deep diligence on your high draft picks.  He may be athletic, but seems like a bad guy.  

Darron Lee was a terrible draft pick we should have had star key player on this roster instead we have nothing for that pick. 

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Watching Jet Nut try to thread the rhetorical needle of “Cashman is a great player, but not so great that he should replace any of our current players, who are also great” is a real treat on a Tuesday morning.

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Just now, dbatesman said:

Watching Jet Nut try to thread the rhetorical needle of “Cashman is a great player, but not so great that he should replace any of our current players, who are also great” is a real treat on a Tuesday morning.

So was my cinnamon raisin toasted bagel. 

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5 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

So was my cinnamon raisin toasted bagel. 

thanks, Joe

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27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

That motor sh*t is what they say before they run.  Cashman is small and NOT long.  He is also not particularly strong which is bad when you consider his short arms.  His speed, burst and agility scores were all in the 85-95 percentile range.  I think I liked what I read about Burr-Kirven a little better, but this kid can fly.  

I will quote myself to add that little guys that can run ALWAYS look best at this time of year.  Once the hitting starts you usually start hearing less about them.  It takes until guards start crushing fast, small ILBs before you find out if they are "studs" or mid-level special teamers.

Same goes for Dortch.  I'm sure he will look fairly good now, but when they really start laying into him at the line, can he get loose in time? 

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I don’t think another team is trading an OL or CB, or a real draft pick, for Williamson.   If they were willing, we should probably take it. 

But for now Cashman looks like a decent 5th round draft pick.  Maybe next year Williamson is expendable,.  Maybe next year the Jets switch for a 4-3 and Cashman is in the WLB rotation.  That i can see happening.  

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1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Seperate from me because you want him to be the next Zach Thomas?  Who says I dont want him to become a stud?  I would like nothing more than that.  My only point was he wasnt mocked as the next ZT and talk about injuries wasnt just nonsensical talk, he had surgery to both shoulders.  I assume that means they were injured.  ANd that at 5 you do draft for STs.  No matter how much someone says you dont.  Parcells drafted for STs all over the draft, he always said the quickest way to steal wins was to build a strong STs unit, its one of his things.  Especially given how much of a crap shoot drafting in the 5th is.  If he can become a regular contributor to the starting D that much better.

lol 

That part of the point was an aside to establish that the following information did not mean I'm not rooting for the kid. That's all.  The real point was just to point out that the pick overall was not the correct pick when there were guys on the board who could very well work to fill more glaring needs. Properly allocating limited resources is a pretty big deal and what separates the good teams and the bad. I'm not against drafting for ST's and get that philosophy, but taking OL at that time would have been a better move. 

I'm sure it was a BPA situation and I'm not against that mindset entirely,  but I'm a big supporter of recognizing and filling drastic needs over BPA.  Sometimes Kirk or Picard would just have to send life support systems resources to the starboard shields man. It's the need at the moment. :-)   Good captains know that. 

We're all rooting for him. That's not in question now that he's here. We're just talking and I honestly think he cn be a diamond in the rough. He's the type of guy that can work and will himself into a success. The more guys like that the better. It's just too bad that we have very little new blood for the OL which is the most glaring and dangerous need for our team. 

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Just now, GREENBEAN said:

That part of the point was an aside to establish that the following information did not mean I'm not rooting for the kid. That's all.  The real point was just to point out that the pick overall was not the correct pick when there were guys on the board who could very well work to fill more glaring needs. Properly allocating limited resources is a pretty big deal and what separates the good teams and the bad. I'm not against drafting for ST's and get that philosophy, but taking OL at that time would have been a better move. 

This loses its importance when you hit the 5th round.  You get production and contributions from anyone at any position with your 5th you dance all the way home.  Come on, hes a 5th.  I know there were tons of unbelievably mediocre OL and WRs that fans drooled over at that spot.  There always are 

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27 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

 

Darron Lee was a terrible draft pick we should have had star key player on this roster instead we have nothing for that pick. 

Not disagreeing but when you look back at that draft, it wasn't exactly brimming with talent where we were picking.  The next three picks were all WRs who were picked a round earlier than Michael Thomas.  Then two non-descript CBs were taken about 20 picks before Xavien Howard.  Then came Paxton Lynch.  It's always a crapshoot but this didn't have the feel of a "we passed on Warren Sapp to take a TE".  And given that Lee was generally mocked to ATL at 17 and that he flashed at least some ability last season before getting hurt, I'd say it was about as good as we could have expected in that specific situation.  Sucks but it is what it is.

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6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

This loses its importance when you hit the 5th round.  You get production and contributions from anyone at any position with your 5th you dance all the way home.  Come on, hes a 5th.  I know there were tons of unbelievably mediocre OL and WRs that fans drooled over at that spot.  There always are 

You seem to think that Maccagnan was playing the value game here and going for a guy that would be a quality special teamer and backup ILB.  I don't think that is the case at all.  I think he saw a guy that was a little undersized that could fly and that was dropped due to his shoulder surgeries.  Much the way he took a swing with Austin a round later.  He consistently took shots on small school guys or guys with injury issues in the later rounds and it wasn't to fill out the roster or get special teamers. 

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11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You seem to think that Maccagnan was playing the value game here and going for a guy that would be a quality special teamer and backup ILB.  I don't think that is the case at all.  I think he saw a guy that was a little undersized that could fly and that was dropped due to his shoulder surgeries.  Much the way he took a swing with Austin a round later.  He consistently took shots on small school guys or guys with injury issues in the later rounds and it wasn't to fill out the roster or get special teamers. 

Your scenario is definitely better but I think even if youre right his fallback was that he probably at worse adds to STs.  So a little of both? 

I just hope if he that was his thinking, and I can see it given how low the percentages are for a player in the 5th, that he got it right.  Him and Austin.  If he hit on either I would be thrilled.  Both?  Wow

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10 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Not disagreeing but when you look back at that draft, it wasn't exactly brimming with talent where we were picking.  The next three picks were all WRs who were picked a round earlier than Michael Thomas.  Then two non-descript CBs were taken about 20 picks before Xavien Howard.  Then came Paxton Lynch.  It's always a crapshoot but this didn't have the feel of a "we passed on Warren Sapp to take a TE".  And given that Lee was generally mocked to ATL at 17 and that he flashed at least some ability last season before getting hurt, I'd say it was about as good as we could have expected in that specific situation.  Sucks but it is what it is. 

 

Will Fuller (# 21) would have been a pretty solid pick there.  He's certainly worth more than a 2020 6th round pick at this stage in his career. 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Will Fuller (# 21) would have been a pretty solid pick there.  He's certainly worth more than a 2020 6th round pick at this stage in his career. 

32 catches for 500 yards? After 28 for 400?  With Watson at QB?

No, hes not any better.  Maybe to someone who has a need for a body at WR

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6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

32 catches for 500 yards? After 28 for 400?  With Watson at QB?

No, hes not any better.  Maybe to someone who has a need for a body at WR 

He's the undisputed WR2 and had a 71.1 % catch rate last season.  Yes, he would be a lot better than Darron Lee. 

Health has been his biggest question mark.  The talent is there. 

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13 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Your scenario is definitely better but I think even if youre right his fallback was that he probably at worse adds to STs.  So a little of both? 

I just hope if he that was his thinking, and I can see it given how low the percentages are for a player in the 5th, that he got it right.  Him and Austin.  If he hit on either I would be thrilled.  Both?  Wow

One scenario is not better than the other.  The secenario that is better is where players work out and become viable in the NFL.  So far, that has not been the case.  He has used the same philosophy with tons of guys that were supposedly devalued.

Hackenberg was hurt by the lack of scholarships.  Jones played WR and CB in college but was better suited to CB.  Simon, Donahue, Shepherd and Cannon were from small schools.  When I say small, I don't mean guys out of the power 5, I mean schools you couldn't name.  Cashman, McGuire, Clark, Austin and Herndon were injured.    

Everybody takes risks.  The idea is taking the right risk.  Do you take the high floor sure thing like Williams, or Adams or take a risk on an Air Raid QB, like Mahomes? He wasn't scared off on Petty, but seemed deathly afraid of a miss at the top. 

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