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Baldy's Breakdown of Quinnen Williams agains the Giants

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12 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Agree 100%.  When Kyler Murray went #1 I knew the Jets were going to be stuck without a decent trade-up offer.  QW was the choice there....it was a no-brainer....and our no brain GM made the right call.

define "decent"?

Fact: There were multiple offers.  Mac said so. But we don't know what they are. 

I have no doubt that Mac would not pull the trigger on anything below chart value.

I would have been just fine with a below-trade chart offer as long as we got mid round 1st, a 2nd a mid round and/or something of value for next year.

We will never know if Mac turned down any "decent" offers.  But there were multiple offers.

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7 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Agree 100%.  When Kyler Murray went #1 I knew the Jets were going to be stuck without a decent trade-up offer.  QW was the choice there....it was a no-brainer....and our no brain GM made the right call.

I don't know who was right or wrong, but several of us were calling for Ed Oliver there. 

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3 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

I haven't seen this posted but please forgive if it is already hiding somewhere.  A really good breakdown of how Q held up his responsibilities in his first NFL action.  How he handled the double teams was really solid for being so early and I have real hope for this guy. The force is strooooong with this one. 

 

https://www.newyorkjets.com/video/baldy-s-breakdown-quinnen-williams-nfl-debut-vs-the-giants

Wow, this is great stuff. Other than the one play where he could have angled back in (but very correctable), he had an impact on each of his plays - even drawing that holding penalty. Now I want to see more progression this week. 

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24 minutes ago, Dcat said:

define "decent"?

Fact: There were multiple offers.  Mac said so. But we don't know what they are. 

I have no doubt that Mac would not pull the trigger on anything below chart value.

I would have been just fine with a below-trade chart offer as long as we got mid round 1st, a 2nd a mid round and/or something of value for next year.

We will never know if Mac turned down any "decent" offers.  But there were multiple offers.

I doubt he was getting offered chart value but again, we'll never really know.  This draft was top heavy (and deep) in Front 7 talent.  I don't see anyone being aggressive with a trade offer when guys like Ed Oliver, Josh Allen and many others were going to be the consolation prize for players like Bosa and QW.  Supply and demand was not in the favor of the Jets as soon as Murray was gone.  Just my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know who was right or wrong, but several of us were calling for Ed Oliver there. 

I know there was significant debate about QW and Oliver...and we'll see over the long haul who turns out to be better, but QW was the safer pick IMO, even if Ed has some unique skills that give him more upside.  I think the floor is higher with Quinnen.

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I’m about to head back down to SC this weekend, after spending most of the summer on Long Island. This gave me a chance to read/see what the three NY area teams did this offseason.

The Bills at least attempted to address areas of need both in FA and the draft. A lot of people here like to use Gettleman as a human piñata, but for better or worse, he walked away from the draft with a QB, a DL, and loaded up with young DBs. Add in Peppers and they’ve totally reloaded their D with young prospects.

Nobody knows how this will turn out for the Bills and Giants, but at least they seemed to have a plan. Then I look at the Jets. They spent a ton of money in FA, yet even after the draft, they are still weak where everyone knew they needed help, at ER, CB, and OL.

Tell me, where and what was the Jets plan?

 

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5 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I doubt he was getting offered chart value but again, we'll never really know.  This draft was top heavy (and deep) in Front 7 talent.  I don't see anyone being aggressive with a trade offer when guys like Ed Oliver, Josh Allen and many others were going to be the consolation prize for players like Bosa and QW.  Supply and demand was not in the favor of the Jets as soon as Murray was gone.  Just my opinion.

One of the guys team(s) were looking to trade up for was one of your consolation prizes.  I am 100% sure that if the Bills were at 3 they were taking Oliver.  Having him fall to 10 was a major score for them.

3 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I know there was significant debate about QW and Oliver...and we'll see over the long haul who turns out to be better, but QW was the safer pick IMO, even if Ed has some unique skills that give him more upside.  I think the floor is higher with Quinnen.

Totally agree.  My pet peeve of Maccagnan's was taking the high floor.  Williams, Adams and Williams all fit that mold.  I guess the only times he didn't it was an unmitigated disaster.  

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3 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

I haven't seen this posted but please forgive if it is already hiding somewhere.  A really good breakdown of how Q held up his responsibilities in his first NFL action.  How he handled the double teams was really solid for being so early and I have real hope for this guy. The force is strooooong with this one.

https://www.newyorkjets.com/video/baldy-s-breakdown-quinnen-williams-nfl-debut-vs-the-giants

thanks for posting

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

One of the guys team(s) were looking to trade up for was one of your consolation prizes.  I am 100% sure that if the Bills were at 3 they were taking Oliver.  Having him fall to 10 was a major score for them.

Totally agree.  My pet peeve of Maccagnan's was taking the high floor.  Williams, Adams and Williams all fit that mold.  I guess the only times he didn't it was an unmitigated disaster.  

I think it would have been the same with Darnold as well.  We'll never know but if the Jets had the choice of any QB in that draft I still think it would have been Darnold over Mayfield.  Again, time will tell on all these guys and right now it's looking like you couldn't have gone wrong with either of those two.

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47 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m about to head back down to SC this weekend, after spending most of the summer...

 

@shuler82 

I gave my opinion of what  teams in our area did, and asked others their opinion of what the Jets did. That’s all this post was, yet you butt fumbled it. Why?

Look, I get that you’re not one of the better posters here, but at least have the courage to back up your reaction with something. You know, like that “vagiants” line that you think is so clever? Or maybe you could try to explain how upset you are I mentioned the Giants or the Bills?

Prove me wrong, and show that you aren’t a d**k. Put your opinion out there in a response rather then take the cowards way out with the hit and run butt fumble. That’s what men do. I’ll be glad to talk about it with you, and at least then I’ll have some respect for you.

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3 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

I haven't seen this posted but please forgive if it is already hiding somewhere.  A really good breakdown of how Q held up his responsibilities in his first NFL action.  How he handled the double teams was really solid for being so early and I have real hope for this guy. The force is strooooong with this one. 

 

https://www.newyorkjets.com/video/baldy-s-breakdown-quinnen-williams-nfl-debut-vs-the-giants

11 snaps

Played AT LEAST 3 different positions in 2 different alignments.  Played in a 3-4, a 4-3 and as NT, 1-Technique, and a 3-Technique.  Performed admirably in all situations, either holding his own, drawing a penalty or getting in on a tackle.  Again....first game and just 11 snaps.

Future is bright.

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27 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I know there was significant debate about QW and Oliver...and we'll see over the long haul who turns out to be better, but QW was the safer pick IMO, even if Ed has some unique skills that give him more upside.  I think the floor is higher with Quinnen.

I think the exact oposite. Ed Oliver was a 3 year starter in college.  QW only started one season.  Hes a baby.  

You know what your getting out of ed olivier.  QW upside is tremendous compare to oliver.

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2 hours ago, bitonti said:

he's got the hand violence to get there. I make alot of dumb bets on this board against the Jets but this one I'd be in favor of backing Q. Any interest? 5.5 is the number if he gets to 6 or above I win

and to make it even spicier I'll only cover his "jets career" if he goes to another team year 7 and gets to 6 the bet is null  

50 or 100 to charity of winners choice 

Josh Allen kinda sux btw. 

Nah, Leo cracked to 7 once.  Q.  Will might have a year where a few fall his way and he eclipses 6, so I dont like that bet.  I just dont see him a +6 every year type of guy, probably would have been a better way to put it.   Just seems like more of a run stuffer than a pass rusher.  

I disagree that Josh Allen sucks and find it to be a terribly stupid comment.  He was the best defender in college last year and here you are touting Q. Will for being a lesser player in college.  If you want to say he's going to suck in the NFL, you're entitled to your opinion but I wholeheartedly, disagree.  Word out of Jax is that he is a man child freak and they were very happy with his preseason performance, especially considering the lack of reps he had in camp getting over an injury.  Doug Marrone was giddy over what he saw.  I'll repeat that, Doug Marrone, giddy over Josh Allen.

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1 hour ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

based on the first pre-season game? This is ridiculous.

 Beat me to it. 

It’s his first 11 snaps and folks want, no, are demanding, immediate dominance. 

Geez. 

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22 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

I think the exact oposite. Ed Oliver was a 3 year starter in college.  QW only started one season.  Hes a baby.  

You know what your getting out of ed olivier.  QW upside is tremendous compare to oliver.

Oliver had productivity PLUS measurables.  His SPARQ score was off the charts.  When productivity and athleticism align like they did with Oliver, he becomes a no-brainer top 5 pick.  It doesn't make much sense to tout QW's upside while thinking Oliver is more of a "finished product".  He's not.  

Granted, QW is an excellent athlete too, and had a much better SPARQ (83rd percentile) than Leonard Williams had (I believe 47 %) coming out of school.  But Oliver was 97th percentile.  Crazy stuff.  

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1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

 Beat me to it. 

It’s his first 11 snaps and folks want, no, are demanding, immediate dominance. 

Geez. 

Instant gratification 

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Also forgive me for not getting TOO excited about QW's versatility.  It's nice that he can handle all positions on the DL, but that's what we heard about Muhammad Wilkerson too.  

I'd rather have a guy that's great at one thing (like rushing the passer) than a jack-of-all-trades at stuff that doesn't matter quite as much in the NFL these days.  We've seen enough DL here who can handle themselves at the point of attack, draw double teams, and stop the run.  I want the guy who gets to the QB.  It's why I preferred Ed Oliver and Josh Allen over QW by the time we got to draft day (especially if we could have traded down a couple spots).  

Hopefully QW becomes a dominant force in the pass-rushing department for us, but I'm not particularly optimistic based on what he was touted as coming out of school and what we've seen in the very early going.  No one will be happier than me if he proves me wrong.  

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36 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

I think the exact oposite. Ed Oliver was a 3 year starter in college.  QW only started one season.  Hes a baby.  

You know what your getting out of ed olivier.  QW upside is tremendous compare to oliver.

That's a fair way to look at it based on experience.  I just see the size difference and more importantly, the level of competition that Alabama and Houston offered respectively and think that translates to increased confidence that QW can handle things at the next level.  Will Ed get washed out as a smaller guy (2" shorter and 20 lbs. lighter than QW) from a smaller school or will his unique quickness, etc. make him a standout in the NFL?  Again, time will tell.

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18 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

That's a fair way to look at it based on experience.  I just see the size difference and more importantly, the level of competition that Alabama and Houston offered respectively and think that translates to increased confidence that QW can handle things at the next level.  Will Ed get washed out as a smaller guy (2" shorter and 20 lbs. lighter than QW) from a smaller school or will his unique quickness, etc. make him a standout in the NFL?  Again, time will tell.


Houston is a 46,000 enrollment school in the AAC.  It's not exactly Fort Hays State. 

And that's what athleticism scores are for.  Oliver's SPARQ dictates he would have been a stud anywhere he played.  The fact that he put up such solid productivity despite having to play NT a lot of the time at Houston also spoke volumes.  It doesn't matter who you're facing; generating pressure up the middle like that in the 3-4 is impressive.  

I get that the AAC is not the SEC, but it isn't a good enough reason to be bearish on Oliver's potential.  

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I really like when Baldy breaks down players.   He gets in there, and makes it easy to understand, but shows you the technical side of the play.   He is an excellent analyst/film breaker downer type person.
And yes, Q looked good in those few plays.

I do as well. He’s one of my favorite guys to listen to/watch in this respect. Whatever Q will be is not being determined by the first preseason game so guys could potentially lighten up a bit, but it’s a good watch.

The idea that it’s crying to say he was doubled is kinda silly. He is getting doubled and we are watching it in the breakdown. Thing is, he drew a penalty on one and stuffed the run on another. Not bad for his first pro game. Unless it’s his fault that it was a run play of course.

They are working him in and he looks good. I think that should be enough for his first 11 plays. No?


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I like Baldinger enough, but when something is posted on the Jets official website, you can't exactly expect critical analysis. 

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:


Houston is a 46,000 enrollment school in the AAC.  It's not exactly Fort Hays State. 

And that's what athleticism scores are for.  Oliver's SPARQ dictates he would have been a stud anywhere he played.  The fact that he put up such solid productivity despite having to play NT a lot of the time at Houston also spoke volumes.  It doesn't matter who you're facing; generating pressure up the middle like that in the 3-4 is impressive.  

I get that the AAC is not the SEC, but it isn't a good enough reason to be bearish on Oliver's potential.  

I don't know how fair it will be the compare SPARQ scores.  IIRC, Oliver's came from his pro day, while Williams did limited work at the combine and his pro day.  I am going from memory, but I don't think Williams did the agility drills.  

That being said, I was all in for Oliver because he is a plus athlete and presumably Williams did not avoid the drills because he was going to be good at them.   

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1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

I know there was significant debate about QW and Oliver...and we'll see over the long haul who turns out to be better, but QW was the safer pick IMO, even if Ed has some unique skills that give him more upside.  I think the floor is higher with Quinnen.

So, like many have speculated we are are getting leo williams.  A nice safe pick, who everyone and their dog said was the best player in the draft.  Who because he is an interior guy is going to be a run stopper who gets the odd sack while being doubled.

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5 hours ago, bitonti said:

what the team needed and what the 3rd pick of the draft offered didn't line up 

you wanted them to do what exactly? 

You are the Jets, what's your pick?

lock in your answer now before the season starts and it becomes even easier to draft in hindsight

it was the only logical pick everything else was a dire reach 

How did their pick not line up when the only players off the board was a QB that we didnt need and Joey Bosa? The Jets had the entire draft available to them, except for one guy which was Bosa. 

This position is based on this cookie cut-out generalized big board that Macc probably agreed with which got him fired. 

Every year we see past guys who werent considered "worthy" on cookie cutout big boards end up being much better than they were given credit for, yet when you go to their tape you see that the talent was there. 

My opinion, folks over think these processes and forget that the sh*t is football. The most important position is the QB and as a byproduct the Oline, they could have traded down and picked up some Oline players or simply drafted an OT like Williams or Dillard if they couldnt move, or someone else who they felt was more valuable. But did we really need to go DT? The answer is no. It didnt have to be what I would have done, my point is that we werent "trapped" with the 3rd highest pick in the entire draft. That's what us Jets fans tell ourselves every year in order to accept the constant incompetency. The point being, it didnt have to be "what I would do", but it surely didnt have to be a DT. So since it ended up being a DT because he was "that damn good" then all im saying is "this should be an immediate transition". Im not clowning Q, the player. But this type of pick has expectations to it since we're dealing with cookie cutter big boards that are all the same. 

This is why I was one of a few that didnt really dig in on Dave Gettleman. Dude showed balls and was willing to take a chance on a guy he believed in and wasnt part of that cookie cutter big board. Will it work? We will certainly find out, but what I will say, he was the best looking rookie QB last week...same kid that had an entire State boo him and the rest of the country laugh...because he wasnt on that cookie cutter big board. 

If that big board worked so well, Macc would still have a job and we would have talent on this team. 

So I ask, spare me with the nonsense that the draft didnt line up. The only real option that was out of play was Joey Bosa. Macc had that entire draft. Dude did what he always does, which is why he's no longer here. 

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Wow, this is great stuff. Other than the one play where he could have angled back in (but very correctable), he had an impact on each of his plays - even drawing that holding penalty. Now I want to see more progression this week. 

Right. He’s raw but extremely talented. Doubled on his first ever play in the NFL. Ya think the giants respect him?


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7 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

How did their pick not line up when the only players off the board was a QB that we didnt need an Joey Bosa? The Jets had the entire draft available to them, except for one guy which was Bosa. 

This position is based on this cookie cut-out generalized big board that Macc probably agreed with which got him fired. 

Every year we see past guys who werent considered "worthy" on cookie cutout big boards end up being much better than they were given credit for, yet when you go to their tape you see that the talent was there. 

My opinion, folks over think these processes and forget that the sh*t is football. The most important position is the QB and as a byproduct the Oline, they could have traded down and picked up some Oline players or simply drafted an OT like Williams or Dillard if they couldnt move, or someone else who they felt was more valuable. But did we really need to go DT? The answer is no. It didnt have to be what I would have done, my point is that we werent "trapped" with the 3rd highest pick in the entire draft. That's what us Jets fans tell ourselves every year in order to accept the constant incompetency. The point being, it didnt have to be "what I would do", but it surely didnt have to be a DT. So since it ended up being a DT because he was "that damn good" then all im saying is "this should be an immediate transition". Im not clowning Q, the player. But this type of pick has expectations to it since we're dealing with cookie cutter big boards that are all the same. 

This is why I was one of a few that didnt really dig in on Dave Gettleman. Dude showed balls and was willing to take a chance on a guy he believed in and wasnt part of that cookie cutter big board. Will it work? We will certainly find out, but what I will say, he was the best looking rookie QB last week...same kid that had an entire State boo him and the rest of the country laugh...because he wasnt on that cookie cutter big board. 

If that big board worked so well, Macc would still have a job and we would have talent on this team. 

So I ask, spare me with the nonsense that the draft didnt line up. The only real option that was out of play was Joey Bosa. Macc had that entire draft. Dude did what he always does, which why he's no longer here. 

This is a great post.  I agree on gettleman.  The guy showed guts by passing on darnold who he didnt believe in and then taking jones at 6 cause he did believe in him.  

Mac was spineless and just took whomever was there that we “should” have taken.  Probably why mac no longer has a job and gettleman has a HOF running back and a probable franchise qb.

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3 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

based on the first pre-season game? This is ridiculous.

Saying that we should expect more than just "perspective" is ridiculous? 

Please, inform me where I criticized Q the player. 

Do I expect this guy to be an all-pro his first season? Not really. Do I expect to immediately see why he was taken 3rd overall even though it was an area of strength as well as the constant narrative of how he could very well be the best overall talent in the draft? Absolutely. 

He's the 3rd player drafted and was considered the best talent in the draft by many. Why am I supposed to be lowering expectations???

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2 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

 

Tell me, where and what was the Jets plan?

 

There was no plan, and the guy who was supposed to have created the plan was fired.  

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Gettelman showed guts. Big ******* deal.  Before we anoint him, let's remember who he is.  He is douche that alienates those around him.  The way he handled Beckham worked out okay, but he assuredly could have gotten a similar or better haul without paying the guy to play during a lost season.  They basically paid $20M to prove Eli was done.

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47 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So, like many have speculated we are are getting leo williams.  A nice safe pick, who everyone and their dog said was the best player in the draft.  Who because he is an interior guy is going to be a run stopper who gets the odd sack while being doubled.

...or we're getting the next Aaron Donald.  We just don't know yet.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:


Houston is a 46,000 enrollment school in the AAC.  It's not exactly Fort Hays State. 

And that's what athleticism scores are for.  Oliver's SPARQ dictates he would have been a stud anywhere he played.  The fact that he put up such solid productivity despite having to play NT a lot of the time at Houston also spoke volumes.  It doesn't matter who you're facing; generating pressure up the middle like that in the 3-4 is impressive.  

I get that the AAC is not the SEC, but it isn't a good enough reason to be bearish on Oliver's potential.  

I'm not sure anyone is bearish on Oliver's potential.  In fact, to continue use of the stock market analogy, I'd say that we could be comparing Apple to Amazon about 10 or 15 years ago.  Which one became the success and which one became the bust?  The answer is that both are wildly successful and profitable, even if relatively speaking one is a little better than the other.  Like Mayfield and Darnold, I'm not sure that either of these DLinemen will ultimately look like a bad pick.

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Gettelman showed guts. Big ******* deal.  Before we anoint him, let's remember who he is.  He is douche that alienates those around him.  The way he handled Beckham worked out okay, but he assuredly could have gotten a similar or better haul without paying the guy to play during a lost season.  They basically paid $20M to prove Eli was done.

No one is anointing him, c'mon, we're just confirming that the dude showed guts to do what he felt was best, and not go with some generic big board because of the potential backlash of every armchair GM. 

 

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5 hours ago, peebag said:

boohoohoo....go do charted public accountancy then.

If you can't stand the heat, etc etc etc

Hey Now.... little personal no? 🤣

Marty Hurney, GM of Panthers is a member of my club and I have spoken to him at length.  While I fully get what BIT is saying, I believe that if  you are just average at your job, the public gets it. 

MAC was bottom 3. 

@bitonti

 

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

So, like many have speculated we are are getting leo williams.  A nice safe pick, who everyone and their dog said was the best player in the draft.  Who because he is an interior guy is going to be a run stopper who gets the odd sack while being doubled.

Wash, rinse, repeat. For 2 decades now. Joe Douglas..... come on down ......and  right this unbalanced ship.

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6 hours ago, Dcat said:

Too bad Mac refused any trade down offers, and there were some.  Could have had an Edge rusher + a solid Olineman despite maybe getting under the classic "chart value".

He's gone.  Hope he chokes on his coffee.

 

That's really what all this is about. Folks are more concerned about chart value then the potential of adding numerous talent in a variety of positions across both sides of the ball when the team is talentless. I would have most preferred to lose "chart value" in return for a mid 1st a 2nd and a late 3rd or 4th rounder. That could have gotten us a Center, 2nd rounder could have gotten a guy like Greedy Williams who fell in the draft (and would have replaced the 2nd round pick lost in the Darnold trade) while still having picks to draft Polite and  Edoga. Maybe that extra pick would have allowed us to draft a guy like David Montgomery a 3rd round pick with 1st round talent. 

Folks rather have their chart value than football talent. 

Yet saying this is immediately taken as a shot at Quinnen. Dude is a lovable kid and I can tell that Jets fans generally are rooting for him. But that doesnt mean that we couldnt have done better with that 3rd pick in the draft. 

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It is not just chart value.  I did not love the offensive line prospects this year.  Every year there I guys that I like that might go later that I might have taken earlier.  In our mock I took the BC guard for the Ravens in the 20s, but Greedy Williams?  Do. Not. Want.  I wouldn't have moved down for him.

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