Baldy's Breakdown of Quinnen Williams agains the Giants

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

It is not just chart value.  I did not love the offensive line prospects this year.  Every year there I guys that I like that might go later that I might have taken earlier.  In our mock I took the BC guard, but Greedy Williams?  Do. Not. Want.  I wouldn't have moved down for him.

 I can respect this. As I said, my position isnt the definitive here. What I'm killing is #1. this theory that the board didnt line up for us and #2. we were somehow "trapped" with the 3rd most valuable pick in the entire draft while at the same time having the most "talented player in the draft" still available. 

I simply dont believe that. 

[jetsons]

I wanted Oliver just like I wanted Mayfield... the jets had no shot @ Mayfield & took Sam... I'm ALL in For Sam... the jets took Q instead of Oliver... I'm ALL in For Q..

Mayfield/Darnold & Q/Oliver- their careers will be forever linked in jets land. 

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, Villain The Foe said:

 I can respect this. As I said, my position isnt the definitive here. What I'm killing is #1. this theory that the board didnt line up for us and #2. we were somehow "trapped" with the 3rd most valuable pick in the entire draft. 

I simply dont believe that. 

You are "trapped" if Quinnen Williams is actually the 3rd most valuable player in the draft.  Like you, I tend to doubt it, but it is certainly possible.

[Villain The Foe]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You are "trapped" if Quinnen Williams is actually the 3rd most valuable player in the draft.  Like you, I tend to doubt it, but it is certainly possible.

Anything is possible, im saying that I dont believe that it was the case. 

I heard the exact same thing back when we were "trapped" with the 6th pick when Leo Williams was on the board. 

It seems like the only reason that we're trapped is because of the folks in charge of initiating and finalizing negotiations. 

Furthermore, how far did the talent fall off after Murray, Bosa and Q? Did it suddenly go from Quinnen to the next guy who was like a late 1st round talent? If a guy is worth of a top 10 pick, then in a situation where you're supposedly "trapped" you can take a guy with top 10 talent with the 3rd pick for as long as it adds talent in an area that's lacking it. 

No one is going to criticize Q the player, but there is no one that can convince me and say that this guy was the only option available. I can easily defeat that by saying "What if the Jets instead had the 4th pick in the draft"? Is there suddenly no one to take now? 

 

 

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Anything is possible, im saying that I dont believe that it was the case. 

I heard the exact same thing back when we were "trapped" with the 6th pick when Leo Williams was on the board. 

It seems like the only reason that we're trapped is because of the folks in charge of initiating and finalizing negotiations. 

Furthermore, how far did the talent fall off after Murray, Bosa and Q? Did it suddenly go from Quinnen to the next guy who was like a late 1st round talent? If a guy is worth of a top 10 pick, then in a situation where you're supposedly "trapped" you can take a guy with top 10 talent with the 3rd pick for as long as it adds talent in an area that's lacking it. 

No one is going to criticize Q the player, but there is no one that can convince me and say that this guy was the only option available. I can easily defeat that by saying "What if the Jets instead had the 4th pick in the draft"? 

 

 

If they hadnt signed Mosely, I thought Devin Bush or Oliver was probably the next best defensive player there and he obviously ends up in Pittsburgh where he'll play 3 downs and get ROY consideration.

I liked the Q pick a lot more than Leo just because I thought he was dominant at Bama, but he's gotta be dominant for it to be worth it. There's no such thing as being trapped. Maccagnan wasn't taking anyone that would have surprised the ESPN panel, which is a bad way of doing things.

[Villain The Foe]

11 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

If they hadnt signed Mosely, I thought Devin Bush or Oliver was probably the next best defensive player there and he obviously ends up in Pittsburgh where he'll play 3 downs and get ROY consideration.

I liked the Q pick a lot more than Leo just because I thought he was dominant at Bama, but he's gotta be dominant for it to be worth it. There's no such thing as being trapped. Maccagnan wasn't taking anyone that would have surprised the ESPN panel, which is a bad way of doing things.

I agree. And did you see Bush in his preseason game? He looks like a player. 

I also like Q better than I did the Leo pick...if im comparing the two. I most definitely dont like however, the fact that when both those picks were made, they were at the strength of the team at the time, and even with the problems that came with Wilk and Sheldon, the Jets had proven that they could find free agents like Steve McClendon, guys like Snacks and Henry Anderson. 

the defensive line IMO is like the RB position, you may not be able to just find superstar studs under some random rock, but you can most definitely build a competent Dline without constantly investing top 3 to top 10 picks on it every other draft. 

Snacks is still probably the best run stuffing Dlineman in all of football. If im correct dude was undrafted and we found him. 

[#27TheDominator]

27 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

If they hadnt signed Mosely, I thought Devin Bush or Oliver was probably the next best defensive player there and he obviously ends up in Pittsburgh where he'll play 3 downs and get ROY consideration.

I liked the Q pick a lot more than Leo just because I thought he was dominant at Bama, but he's gotta be dominant for it to be worth it. There's no such thing as being trapped. Maccagnan wasn't taking anyone that would have surprised the ESPN panel, which is a bad way of doing things.

Devin Bush?  I thought Devin White was the chalk pick of the Devins? 

[shuler82]

3 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

@shuler82 

I gave my opinion of what  teams in our area did, and asked others their opinion of what the Jets did. That’s all this post was, yet you butt fumbled it. Why?

Look, I get that you’re not one of the better posters here, but at least have the courage to back up your reaction with something. You know, like that “vagiants” line that you think is so clever? Or maybe you could try to explain how upset you are I mentioned the Giants or the Bills?

Prove me wrong, and show that you aren’t a d**k. Put your opinion out there in a response rather then take the cowards way out with the hit and run butt fumble. That’s what men do. I’ll be glad to talk about it with you, and at least then I’ll have some respect for you.

Who are you? Seriously. I need to know why I should give a sh*t  about having your respect..and also why buttfumbles hurt your feelings enough so to cause tears. 

As for my buttfumble, you earned it. Not so much about the current state of the Jets,(albeit ignoring it was largely due to the previous GM was a nice touch) but in your praise of the Giants and Bills mediocre if not outright poor offseasons. That said, I’d take the Jets offseason over just about every other team’s out there. Bell, Mosley, Crowder, Osemele, Kahil, Montgomery.. even Williams as much as I worry going DL in R1 wasn’t the best outcome. The Jets are probably the most improved team in the league- granted, where they’re coming from its not that hard to accomplish. Sure, we still have massive holes, but we also have a new GM, the cap space, and a few weeks to address them. But yeah, Bills and Giants. Two model franchises.

[14 in Green]

15 minutes ago, shuler82 said:

Who are you? Seriously. I need to know why I should give a sh*t  about having your respect..and also why buttfumbles hurt your feelings enough so to cause tears. 

As for my buttfumble, you earned it. Not so much about the current state of the Jets,(albeit ignoring it was largely due to the previous GM was a nice touch) but in your praise of the Giants and Bills mediocre if not outright poor offseasons. That said, I’d take the Jets offseason over just about every other team’s out there. Bell, Mosley, Crowder, Osemele, Kahil, Montgomery.. even Williams as much as I worry going DL in R1 wasn’t the best outcome. The Jets are probably the most improved team in the league- granted, where they’re coming from its not that hard to accomplish. Sure, we still have massive holes, but we also have a new GM, the cap space, and a few weeks to address them. But yeah, Bills and Giants. Two model franchises.

Thanks, at least you were man enough to explain yourself.

I disagree with you, but like I said, that was only my opinion, and I appreciate you now giving yours. I just don’t like or use the butt fumble, I’d rather discuss something. As you now realize I only give them (actually I give two) to someone who gives me one.

Thats childish of me, I know, but it’s how I deal with getting them.

[shuler82]

24 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Thanks, at least you were man enough to explain yourself.

I disagree with you, but like I said, that was only my opinion, and I appreciate you now giving yours. I just don’t like or use the butt fumble, I’d rather discuss something. As you now realize I only give them (actually I give two) to someone who gives me one.

Thats childish of me, I know, but it’s how I deal with getting them.

You can go ahead and butt fumble every single one of my 2000 posts...As I see you’ve already began doing. I’ve been a member on this Jets board and others for 20+ years now so I’m not going to let the insecurities of a fellow fan get me down. I’m here for the Jets talk, occasional hot take, pig ripening, training camp updates, feet pics, and the semi-latent homosexuality. Not necessarily in that order.

[BroadwayRay]

4 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m about to head back down to SC this weekend, after spending most of the summer on Long Island. This gave me a chance to read/see what the three NY area teams did this offseason.

The Bills at least attempted to address areas of need both in FA and the draft. A lot of people here like to use Gettleman as a human piñata, but for better or worse, he walked away from the draft with a QB, a DL, and loaded up with young DBs. Add in Peppers and they’ve totally reloaded their D with young prospects.

Nobody knows how this will turn out for the Bills and Giants, but at least they seemed to have a plan. Then I look at the Jets. They spent a ton of money in FA, yet even after the draft, they are still weak where everyone knew they needed help, at ER, CB, and OL.

Tell me, where and what was the Jets plan?

 

You really need to ask this when everyone here knows better than anyone that this team wasted five drafts with an imposter GM?

[Beerfish]

2 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

...or we're getting the next Aaron Donald.  We just don't know yet.

or is not in the vocabulary he must be because after going dline the last decade and having many holes he better be ultra dominant.  We have no pass rushers, no corners and still weak on o weapons.  so drafting dt again as always this guy better be the real deal and not just 'good'

[14 in Green]

41 minutes ago, shuler82 said:

You can go ahead and butt fumble every single one of my 2000 posts...As I see you’ve already began doing. I’ve been a member on this Jets board and others for 20+ years now so I’m not going to let the insecurities of a fellow fan get me down. I’m here for the Jets talk, occasional hot take, pig ripening, training camp updates, feet pics, and the semi-latent homosexuality. Not necessarily in that order.

 Look who’s tearing up over butt fumbles now... Nobody is bfing your 2000 posts, least of all me. Stop playing the martyr.

You gave me 3 on this page. I told you when you did that I never give them except if someone gives me one. Then I give back 2 for each one they give me.

[shuler82]

21 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

 Look who’s tearing up over butt fumbles now... Nobody is bfing your 2000 posts, least of all me. Stop playing the martyr.

You gave me 3 on this page. I told you when you did that I never give them except if someone gives me one. Then I give back 2 for each one they give me.

This is like trying to have a conversation with my wife.

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Devin Bush?  I thought Devin White was the chalk pick of the Devins? 

As the man who selected Bush over White in the JN Mock Draft, I thought Bush was the better player #tape. I bombed out on everything else though.

[RobR]

3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

...or we're getting the next Aaron Donald.  We just don't know yet.

There are many metrics out there that will tell you we are not getting the next Donald with Q. When it comes to Oliver, you might be getting the next Donald or an even better version. 

I think Q will be a good player for us and I'm rooting like hell for him to be a DPOY type of player, I'm just not counting on it.

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, RobR said:

There are many metrics out there that will tell you we are not getting the next Donald with Q. When it comes to Oliver, you might be getting the next Donald or an even better version. 

I think Q will be a good player for us and I'm rooting like hell for him to be a DPOY type of player, I'm just not counting on it.

Geno Atkins was a pretty dominant player pre-injury and in his prime. Q isnt quite as athletic as he was coming out, but if that's who he is then we're good.

[RobR]

16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Geno Atkins was a pretty dominant player pre-injury and in his prime. Q isnt quite as athletic as he was coming out, but if that's who he is then we're good.

I agree, I would be happy if he plays like Atkins.

I can't stand the lazy comparisons when someone compares Q to Donald because they aren't even remotely similar when it comes to athleticism and build. If you compare Donald against Oliver you are getting almost identical numbers with Oliver being slightly better and a smidgen taller.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, RobR said:

I agree, I would be happy if he plays like Atkins.

I can't stand the lazy comparisons when someone compares Q to Donald because they aren't even remotely similar when it comes to athleticism and build. If you compare Donald against Oliver you are getting almost identical numbers with Oliver being slightly better and a smidgen taller.

Oliver's concerns were more related to the coachability stuff if I were to guess.

[RobR]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Oliver's concerns were more related to the coachability stuff if I were to guess.

I don't think that was ever a concern, at the very least with me. I've watched this kid since he was a freshman and I came away with someone that has fire and desire for the game. It might rub some the wrong way when he had a small blowup with his coach. Not me because I love too see that passion.

[Bowles Movement]

19 hours ago, Dcat said:

What should he have done?  You accept a trade down (and there were multiple offers) even if it is a bit below chart value.  That way you get both an OL and an Edge rusher.  Stubborn Mac couldn't pull the trigger.  I have no doubt he was concerned about public perception and trade chart value.  

I just don’t know how you can push the trade down scenario when you have no idea what the offer was or even if there was an offer.   Would you have taken the Browns haul for when we traded up for Sanchez with a bunch of journeymen and mid round picks?   You would have been the second to roast him right after Chris Johnson.  Sometimes the cards you have are better than the ones in the pile.  It’s telling that everybody wanted to trade down yet no one traded up.

[Bowles Movement]

10 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Oliver's concerns were more related to the coachability stuff if I were to guess.

Also lack of production vs the level of talent he played against.  He didn’t dominate against the generally lower level in his conference.

[Philc1]

19 hours ago, peebag said:

As long as we don't draft a DL in the first round for the next 5 years, I'll be happy.

I’m not sure who we were supposed to take over QW:

 

Jonah? - chronically bad shoulder and not even a great OT prospect to begin with

 

Oliver? - plays same position so it ends up being a matter of taste both are great prospects 

 

Josh Allen? - probably the only other option that made sense

 

 

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

I just don’t know how you can push the trade down scenario when you have no idea what the offer was or even if there was an offer.   Would you have taken the Browns haul for when we traded up for Sanchez with a bunch of journeymen and mid round picks?   You would have been the second to roast him right after Chris Johnson.  Sometimes the cards you have are better than the ones in the pile.  It’s telling that everybody wanted to trade down yet no one traded up.

Dude.  There were offers.  Multiple ones.  Mac said so himself.  I have not one ounce of doubt that the offers were well below the inane "chart" values ala Jimmah Johnson's archaic value system.  No way woould Mac face public scrutiny if he took another deal at below chart (2 years in a row).  He was a pu**y to the nth degree.

Believe what you want.  Trades were there for the making but Mac too afraid of public reaction.  SHould have had an Edge rusher and an OL from the #3 pick.  Instead we probably got Leo the 2nd.

[bitonti]

21 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I know there was significant debate about QW and Oliver...and we'll see over the long haul who turns out to be better, but QW was the safer pick IMO, even if Ed has some unique skills that give him more upside.  I think the floor is higher with Quinnen.

I was about as pro Ed Oliver as a human can be pre draft (was making Ed Oliver no matter what posts like a bot for weeks straight) 

but it's fair to say Williams is a better prospect 

I know everyone is going to hate this (legacies, pro comps) but he's the best Bama d lineman they've had for like a generation.

 here's the recent dudes: 

NT Daron Payne went 1.13 to WAS and got 5 sacks as a rookie (2018 draft also had Deshawn hand in rd 4 to DET and Josh Frazier in rd 7, also to DET)

DE Jonathan Allen went 1.17 also to WAS and has 9 career sacks in 2 years (1 as a rookie, 8 last year) (2017 draft Dalvin Tomlinson went rd 2 to the NYG) 

DT Jarran Reed went in rd 2 in 2016 had 10.5 sacks last year for SEA (2016 draft AShawn Robinson also went in rd 2) 

 

Everyone wants to find the gem from Wherever State but here's my question and it's very simple: 

Is Quinnen Williams going to be at least as good as Daron Payne, Jon Allen and Jarran Reed? 

If all your scouts say he's going to be better, and you trust the scouts, that's super exciting news.

Of course the scouts are wrong all the time but I'm comfortable taking QW over Oliver based on the Bama vs Houston thing (and yes I know Ed Oliver was a 5 star prep who could have gone anywhere)

that's the Dad jeans, chalk-pick GM move to make and usually guys don't get fired making those picks.   

[RichardTodd27]

On 8/13/2019 at 12:04 PM, bitonti said:

Josh Allen kinda sux btw. 

To me, Josh Allen was the obvious pick and biggest need.

Please explain?

[Bomberjet]

On 8/13/2019 at 2:36 PM, 14 in Green said:

@shuler82 

I gave my opinion of what  teams in our area did, and asked others their opinion of what the Jets did. That’s all this post was, yet you butt fumbled it. Why?

Look, I get that you’re not one of the better posters here, but at least have the courage to back up your reaction with something. You know, like that “vagiants” line that you think is so clever? Or maybe you could try to explain how upset you are I mentioned the Giants or the Bills?

Prove me wrong, and show that you aren’t a d**k. Put your opinion out there in a response rather then take the cowards way out with the hit and run butt fumble. That’s what men do. I’ll be glad to talk about it with you, and at least then I’ll have some respect for you.

I also did the Butt Fumble on your post - I'm not shy to explain...

Not that you have a right your own opinion , and some questioning about certain moves is always there to rant about about, but , prove you wrong? About what? Like anyone else that I disagree with  placing  a butt fumble (or whatever) on a poster, it's always the case that they have it all figured out before the first snap of  the opening game that COUNTS.  Remember Browning Nagle? Pre-season means absolutely squat yet you have made up your mind already about the outcome of 2019.

Would it be asking too much to at least see where the Jets are 4 games in? Or is that irrelevant to you?

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, RichardTodd27 said:

To me, Josh Allen was the obvious pick and biggest need.

Please explain?

I’m on record wanting Josh Allen as well.  I let need creep into the equation but only slightly, meaning that I didn’t the difference was huge between QW and Allen....both were/are Top 5-10 talents in my opinion.  Allen would not have been a reach at #3 and our need for an outside pass rusher elevated him in my mind.  Obviously Macc and his scouts saw it differently and thought the difference wasn’t slight.

Only time will tell but put it this way....the Jets aren’t the only team that passed on him....including a total of 4 Front 7 defenders taken before him.  The Jets weren’t “on an island” when passing on Allen.

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

To me, Josh Allen was the obvious pick and biggest need.

Please explain?

I woulda been fine with either QW or Allen and I think both will be really good in the nfl

[14 in Green]

52 minutes ago, Bomberjet said:

I also did the Butt Fumble on your post - I'm not shy to explain...

Not that you have a right your own opinion , and some questioning about certain moves is always there to rant about about, but , prove you wrong? About what? Like anyone else that I disagree with  placing  a butt fumble (or whatever) on a poster, it's always the case that they have it all figured out before the first snap of  the opening game that COUNTS.  Remember Browning Nagle? Pre-season means absolutely squat yet you have made up your mind already about the outcome of 2019.

Would it be asking too much to at least see where the Jets are 4 games in? Or is that irrelevant to you?

The “prove me wrong” comment had nothing to do with the observations I made in the original post. It had to do with me thinking someone who chooses to butt fumble a post which wasn’t argumentative, just stating an opinion, wouldn’t later explain himself.

To your and @shuler82s credit, you both did, and I respect both of you for that. Like I said, I never give butt fumbles, unless someone gives me one. (So now you know why you just got two back) In my opinion they’re like a slap in the face to someone. If I see something I disagree with, I’d rather discuss it with the person. Who knows, they might change my mind, and at least I’m not making someone upset at me.

Maybe I’m wrong, and I take it too seriously, but it’s how I feel, and I’m not going to change.

Aside from that, your reasoning that I wait “4 games in” is very suspect. What does it mean? We shouldn’t give opinions or voice concern about anything during the off season? Or are we only allowed positive thoughts?

Finally, yes I remember the Browning rifle. He was the last Jet QB I’ve bought into the hype with. That gets me in a lot of trouble here when discussing Darnold, but after Nagle, I’m Missouri. Don’t tell me, show me. LOL

[#27TheDominator]

45 minutes ago, Bomberjet said:

I also did the Butt Fumble on your post - I'm not shy to explain...

Not that you have a right your own opinion , and some questioning about certain moves is always there to rant about about, but , prove you wrong? About what? Like anyone else that I disagree with  placing  a butt fumble (or whatever) on a poster, it's always the case that they have it all figured out before the first snap of  the opening game that COUNTS.  Remember Browning Nagle? Pre-season means absolutely squat yet you have made up your mind already about the outcome of 2019.

Would it be asking too much to at least see where the Jets are 4 games in? Or is that irrelevant to you?

4 games in?!?!  Herndon will not have even played yet.  How can you make any valid determination about the state of the franchise?   

[RichardTodd27]

1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

Only time will tell but put it this way....the Jets aren’t the only team that passed on him....including a total of 4 Front 7 defenders taken before him.  The Jets weren’t “on an island” when passing on Allen.

Very true. I remember the reaction of some of my Giant fan buddies when the Giants chose Daniel Jones instead of Josh Allen. Really warmed my heart.

[jetstream23]

7 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Very true. I remember the reaction of some of my Giant fan buddies when the Giants chose Daniel Jones instead of Josh Allen. Really warmed my heart.

Same here. They couldn’t believe Allen fell to them....then they passed. I think the Giants found their QB but Jones really needs to work out or they will look bad for passing on Darnold, Allen and Haskins. 

[MaxAF]

On 8/13/2019 at 11:09 AM, Dcat said:

Q is and will be double-teamed often.  Can't wait till this board wants him traded due to lack of sacks.  Playing mostly nose and 1-tech, I expect the whining around these parts to be about the same as Leo.

D has got weapons in the trenches this year. Teams can’t double team everybody. I expect a good run stop Defense this year which gives me more concern for our secondary. If the Offense could start scoring 30-40 points a game the Jets should be OK, which I believe is possible.

[Jet Nut]

On 8/13/2019 at 11:17 AM, Dcat said:

Too bad Mac refused any trade down offers, and there were some.

Who offered a trade down and more importantly what was the offer?

Link?