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Baldy's Breakdown of Quinnen Williams agains the Giants

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On 8/13/2019 at 11:25 AM, Dcat said:

Bullsht  THere were offers and that's a fact.  It was reported and confirmed by MaC after the draft.  Mac didn't like the offers.  Took the easy way by taking Q.    He could have made a decent deal landing us TWO players in the first 2 Rounds. Instead of just Leo Williams II.   

There are always offers.  Every top 10 pick.

But Macc also said the offers werent good, wouldnt have brought in more talent that what they got at 3.  Can you prove he was wrong?  You said fact, so what is the factual trade offer(s) he turned down?  

Too many wanted a trade just to trade.  You have no idea what the offer was but, bullshlt he should have traded.

Then again after one preseason game you call QW LWII.  

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On 8/13/2019 at 3:03 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

Oliver had productivity

Ed Oliver:  29 solo tkls.  25 assts.  14.5 TFL.  3 Sacks.  

QW:  45 solo tkls.  26 assts.  19.5 TFL.  8 sacks.  Tougher competition

 

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33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Who offered a trade down and more importantly what was the offer?

Link?

Mac said in an interview that there were "multiple trade offers" none of which he felt provided the value of the #3 pick.  I don't have the link, but the interview was posted in this forum because that's where I heard it.

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31 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

There are always offers.  Every top 10 pick.

But Macc also said the offers werent good, wouldnt have brought in more talent that what they got at 3.  Can you prove he was wrong?  You said fact, so what is the factual trade offer(s) he turned down?  

Too many wanted a trade just to trade.  You have no idea what the offer was but, bullshlt he should have traded.

Then again after one preseason game you call QW LWII.  

I've been callingh him that since before we drafted him. Has nothing to do with the pre season 11 snaps, in which he looked fine as a run stuffing interior DL.  

We needed an Edge rusher and an OL far more desperately than we needed yet another interior d-lineman.  A trade should have been made and a competent GM could have and would have made something happen.  That's my opinion and it's not changing.  Mac was a soft pus.  No guts. Glad he's gone.  Glad to move on.  Hope Q becomes the best interior DL in the NFL.  I really do.  I would be more than happy to recant my position down the road on what Mac SHOULD have done.

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Just now, Dcat said:

Mac said in an interview that there were "multiple trade offers" none of which he felt provided the value of the #3 pick.  I don't have the link, but the interview was posted in this forum because that's where I heard it.

I get that.

Thats actually not important.  There are always offers to trade down on some level.  Whats important is what were the offers he turned down?  Macc also said was that they didnt like the offers because what would be available at those spots weren't worth what they could get at 3.  Which is exactly what needs to be looked at before making a trade.  As was said earlier, how did Parcells trade downs work out?  Its the return, not just trading for the sake of trading.  The mistake is thinking all we had to do was trade and we would have gotten two starters, really good ones over one starter.  

Hard to disagree when no one knows what the offer was.  

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5 minutes ago, Dcat said:

 

We needed an Edge rusher and an OL far more desperately than we needed yet another interior d-lineman.  A trade should have been made and a competent GM could have and would have made something happen.  

How does a competent GM make a trade with others if they dont want to trade, more importantly give equal value as opposed to sitting at their spot?

Got to love the idea that a GM wants to get two stud players out of his one pick and all he has to do is offer another GM the chance to trade his two stud players for our one pick.  

Getting two possible studs for the 3rd pick only would happen with a QB or a cant miss have to have player.  One who wasnt there this year

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Q better have 3 sacks tonite, 8 solo tackles, 4 TFL and a FF or we might think about trading him for some picks. 

I don’t want to hear about double teams either. He’s a NT, it’s what he signed up for. 

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2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Q better have 3 sacks tonite, 8 solo tackles, 4 TFL and a FF or we might think about trading him for a 5th.

 

Fixed

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As usual and as expected all the people that are bleating about how this guy had to be the pick and is going to be a great player are also heading the excuse parade as to why he is not going to be a difference maker.  Every other player in the draft was garbage so we had to take quinnen and we received no viable trade offers at all!

The same people excusing mac for making yet another 'safe' pick also love the new gm and he is going to be great!

The happy happy jets can do no wrong club is always the same.

If your interior Dline #3 overall pick is not a pro bowler and wrecker by about year two or three then the pick is a fail because you can get hold the fort guys all over the draft or udfa  (Pouha, Devito, Snacks)

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19 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

As usual and as expected all the people that are bleating about how this guy had to be the pick and is going to be a great player are also heading the excuse parade as to why he is not going to be a difference maker.  Every other player in the draft was garbage so we had to take quinnen and we received no viable trade offers at all!

The same people excusing mac for making yet another 'safe' pick also love the new gm and he is going to be great!

The happy happy jets can do no wrong club is always the same.

If your interior Dline #3 overall pick is not a pro bowler and wrecker by about year two or three then the pick is a fail because you can get hold the fort guys all over the draft or udfa  (Pouha, Devito, Snacks)

Ok, I think we all agree. What's your point? We all think Q will and should be a game changer on defense. Whatever form that comes in, he better be recognized as a top 2-3 interior Dlinemen. 

Are you seriously down on Q because he didn't have 3 sacks in a couple of plays in his first preseason game? 

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11 snaps
Played AT LEAST 3 different positions in 2 different alignments.  Played in a 3-4, a 4-3 and as NT, 1-Technique, and a 3-Technique.  Performed admirably in all situations, either holding his own, drawing a penalty or getting in on a tackle.  Again....first game and just 11 snaps.
Future is bright.

Indeed. He’s got the goods. Just the fact that the giants came out and doubled the hell out of him from the opening bell says a lot too. This kid is going to be our stud DT that we have hoped all the other bums were gonna be since Jenkins. Leo should be thanking god for sending quinnen Williams during his contract year


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3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

How does a competent GM make a trade with others if they dont want to trade, more importantly give equal value as opposed to sitting at their spot?

Got to love the idea that a GM wants to get two stud players out of his one pick and all he has to do is offer another GM the chance to trade his two stud players for our one pick.  

Getting two possible studs for the 3rd pick only would happen with a QB or a cant miss have to have player.  One who wasnt there this year

You dont know that. Put it this way...  how surprised would anyone be if Mac turned down an offer to move down to mid 1st and get a 2nd this year and maybe a 3rd next? Well below chart value, but would have served our purposes well. Mac would have been overly concerned with "value" rather than what would have been best for the franchise. 

Neither of us will ever know the details of the offers, but I suspect there was at least a decent one by my standards and you dont. That's about the end of it. Let's hope Q becomes what he was projected to be so that this becomes moot.

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On 8/13/2019 at 4:26 PM, Villain The Foe said:

How did their pick not line up when the only players off the board was a QB that we didnt need and Joey Bosa? The Jets had the entire draft available to them, except for one guy which was Bosa. 

This position is based on this cookie cut-out generalized big board that Macc probably agreed with which got him fired. 

Every year we see past guys who werent considered "worthy" on cookie cutout big boards end up being much better than they were given credit for, yet when you go to their tape you see that the talent was there. 

My opinion, folks over think these processes and forget that the sh*t is football. The most important position is the QB and as a byproduct the Oline, they could have traded down and picked up some Oline players or simply drafted an OT like Williams or Dillard if they couldnt move, or someone else who they felt was more valuable. But did we really need to go DT? The answer is no. It didnt have to be what I would have done, my point is that we werent "trapped" with the 3rd highest pick in the entire draft. That's what us Jets fans tell ourselves every year in order to accept the constant incompetency. The point being, it didnt have to be "what I would do", but it surely didnt have to be a DT. So since it ended up being a DT because he was "that damn good" then all im saying is "this should be an immediate transition". Im not clowning Q, the player. But this type of pick has expectations to it since we're dealing with cookie cutter big boards that are all the same. 

This is why I was one of a few that didnt really dig in on Dave Gettleman. Dude showed balls and was willing to take a chance on a guy he believed in and wasnt part of that cookie cutter big board. Will it work? We will certainly find out, but what I will say, he was the best looking rookie QB last week...same kid that had an entire State boo him and the rest of the country laugh...because he wasnt on that cookie cutter big board. 

If that big board worked so well, Macc would still have a job and we would have talent on this team. 

So I ask, spare me with the nonsense that the draft didnt line up. The only real option that was out of play was Joey Bosa. Macc had that entire draft. Dude did what he always does, which is why he's no longer here. 

those are alot of words. Did you select a name? Jonah Williams? Great pick he's hurt you just got fired 

Andre Dillard the backup to Jason Peters on the Eagles? Is he even an upgrade over Beachum? Or Edoga? 

Seriously tho I want a name or if it's a trade down I want 2 or 3 names. Let's lock em in before real football starts

the draft is super easy in abstract or in hindsight

what's hard is picking the HOF player before he steps on to a professional field 

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1 hour ago, Dcat said:

You dont know that. Put it this way...  how surprised would anyone be if Mac turned down an offer to move down to mid 1st and get a 2nd this year and maybe a 3rd next? Well below chart value, but would have served our purposes well. Mac would have been overly concerned with "value" rather than what would have been best for the franchise. 

Neither of us will ever know the details of the offers, but I suspect there was at least a decent one by my standards and you dont. That's about the end of it. Let's hope Q becomes what he was projected to be so that this becomes moot.

And none of this says that he turned down equal or greater value for the 3rd.  We can suspect all we want but it doesn't prove that he turned down a sweat deal.  No matter how much we wanted him gone. 

I sure as hell am not going to speculate and get pissed over something I have no idea happened anywhere other than my imagination.

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

those are alot of words. Did you select a name? Jonah Williams? Great pick he's hurt you just got fired 

Im fired because he got hurt? How ridiculous is that? 

Was I supposed to ignore his talent because of an injury after the draft??? I was considering him in April, why should that change because of an injury??? Was I supposed to pretend like I didnt like him now that he's injured? Even you are better than this position you're taking.

I've NEVER seen a GM get fired because he drafted a player who got injured who didnt have a injury history worthy of being concerned. 

Where were you when we drafted Dee Milliner after his 25 surgeries???

Quote

Andre Dillard the backup to Jason Peters on the Eagles? Is he even an upgrade over Beachum? Or Edoga? 

Andre Dillard is a back up to a 37 year old 2-time 1st team all pro, 4-time 2nd team all pro, 9-time probowl Superbowl winning Tackle who is on the last year of his contract. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/jason-peters-1179/

Because smart teams draft players to replace guys like Peters. They dont do stupid things like let D'Brick and Mangold get old and not gameplan beforehand because they're too busy drafting Leo Williams. 

Would Beachum or Edoga be starting over Peters if they were on the Eagles right now? I'll ask a different way. If Peters was let go by the Eagles right now and the Jets picked him up, would Beachum still be our Starter? 

Bro. You got to come better than this. Or better, just admit that I could have a point here instead of reaching this far. 

Quote

Seriously tho I want a name or if it's a trade down I want 2 or 3 names. Let's lock em in before real football starts

Seriously tho, it doesnt matter what you want given this underwhelming response. 

Quote

the draft is super easy in abstract or in hindsight

what's hard is picking the HOF player before he steps on to a professional field 

I agree. How many HOF'ers have we drafted using that lame cookie cutter generic big board? Better yet, how many HOF'ers have we missed out on by using it? 

furthermore, how many players who are just "good to very good" did we miss on because we constantly keep drafting Dlinemen that we dont need simply because of this generic cookie cutter big board that has not done a damn thing but keep us talentless outside of the Dline? 

 

It's so hard for folks here to even give partial credit. You know im right. We didnt need him given that we've proven to be able to add quality talent to that group whether in the draft, free agency or undrafted. 

Can Q play Corner? Can he play Center? Oh that's right, we had had to beg a guy to un-retire. Can he play WR? 

You mean we have all of these problems yet we're picking a DT 3rd overall when we could have simply traded down and acquired some more picks within the top 100 in order to help with our holes at these positions? No wonder why Adam Gase was nowhere to be found during draft week. 

Even Adam Gase didnt want to be seen sitting next to Macc during this stupidity. Because folks who are side by side are in agreement. It was clear that even Gase disagreed with the draft. It doesnt mean that Q isnt talented, it means that this isnt how you build a 53 man roster. You dont win SB's (or games for that matter) with 53 Dlinemen

 

Bro, you know better than this. 

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3 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:


Indeed. He’s got the goods. Just the fact that the giants came out and doubled the hell out of him from the opening bell says a lot too. This kid is going to be our stud DT that we have hoped all the other bums were gonna be since Jenkins. Leo should be thanking god for sending quinnen Williams during his contract year


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Playing next to Nathan Shepherd like QW did last week is a big difference from playing with Leo or McClendon. 

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46 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

You mean we have all of these problems yet we're picking a DT 3rd overall when we could have simply traded down and acquired some more picks within the top 100 in order to help with our holes at these positions?

Just snap your fingers and poof, someone will give you a two for one or better deal. 

LOL. 

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1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

 

Can Q play Corner? Can he play Center? Oh that's right, we had had to beg a guy to un-retire. Can he play WR? 

Can't fix all the problems with this team in one draft, and if you try, you might not fix any of them

Jonah Williams wasn't a very good tackle prospect. Those with eyes saw it before the draft. Other than his 40 time and his experience for alabama nothing about his profile said he was a starting LT in this league

i actually like Dillard but Edoga could be just as good or better and they didn't have to burn the 1st round pick on him 

and neither are going to play this year which is a lousy use of a 1st round pick 

 

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39 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Can't fix all the problems with this team in one draft, and if you try, you might not fix any of them

Stop changing the point being made. You know what im saying. Its insane to continuously do the same thing and expect change.

How many years must we draft defense in the 1st round when we cant score points? 

How many defensive linemen in the 1st round or top 10 must we draft when we have holes everywhere else but the Dline? 

This isnt about fixing this team in 1 draft, this is about turning away from what we've been constantly doing...which only takes 1 draft to do. 

Quote

Jonah Williams wasn't a very good tackle prospect. Those with eyes saw it before the draft. Other than his 40 time and his experience for alabama nothing about his profile said he was a starting LT in this league

i actually like Dillard but Edoga could be just as good or better and they didn't have to burn the 1st round pick on him 

and neither are going to play this year which is a lousy use of a 1st round pick 

All of this is opinion which you're entitled to have. What I will say is, Dillard being a waste of a 1st round pick to you doesnt matter to a team stacked with talent to the point where they can take 1st round rookies and sit them behind All-Pro future HOF talent to learn from and to ultimately replace. 

So there goes that argument. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Playing next to Nathan Shepherd like QW did last week is a big difference from playing with Leo or McClendon. 

Agreed, although I am higher on Shepherd than a lot of other posters.  That guy can be a beast and I'm rooting for him.  It's gonna be tough with Fatukasi and Kaufusi coming on. Those guys are not here to hang out. They have an edge to them. Shepherd needs to be on the top of his  game or he's gone.  I think he will make it though. He's playing well at the moment.  But your point is accurate. 

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11 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Ok, I think we all agree. What's your point? We all think Q will and should be a game changer on defense. Whatever form that comes in, he better be recognized as a top 2-3 interior Dlinemen. 

Are you seriously down on Q because he didn't have 3 sacks in a couple of plays in his first preseason game? 

No.  You're missing the point.  It's about Mac's interesting world of draft blunders.  It's certainly not about 11 snaps.  

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On 8/14/2019 at 3:43 PM, 14 in Green said:

The “prove me wrong” comment had nothing to do with the observations I made in the original post. It had to do with me thinking someone who chooses to butt fumble a post which wasn’t argumentative, just stating an opinion, wouldn’t later explain himself.

To your and @shuler82s credit, you both did, and I respect both of you for that. Like I said, I never give butt fumbles, unless someone gives me one. (So now you know why you just got two back) In my opinion they’re like a slap in the face to someone. If I see something I disagree with, I’d rather discuss it with the person. Who knows, they might change my mind, and at least I’m not making someone upset at me.

Maybe I’m wrong, and I take it too seriously, but it’s how I feel, and I’m not going to change.

Aside from that, your reasoning that I wait “4 games in” is very suspect. What does it mean? We shouldn’t give opinions or voice concern about anything during the off season? Or are we only allowed positive thoughts?

Finally, yes I remember the Browning rifle. He was the last Jet QB I’ve bought into the hype with. That gets me in a lot of trouble here when discussing Darnold, but after Nagle, I’m Missouri. Don’t tell me, show me. LOL

I think 4 games in would give us a very good indication of what to expect - Bills, Browns Pats and Eagles, without Herndon and a raw crew of backs - but the team may not jell until week 8?

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I understood why so many Jets fans (given the plethora of DLinemen picked by the last few regimes), and wanted us to trade out or pick someone else at 3...but this kid is an absolute animal. 

You can’t beat interior pressure on a QB, which is what makes Aaron Donald the most important defender in the league. Q Will is going to be the anchor of our defense for a long time to come.

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On 8/15/2019 at 9:31 AM, Jet Nut said:

Ed Oliver:  29 solo tkls.  25 assts.  14.5 TFL.  3 Sacks.  

QW:  45 solo tkls.  26 assts.  19.5 TFL.  8 sacks.  Tougher competition

 

I’m not involved in this discussion, but I didn’t know this. Nice job here, nut.

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35 minutes ago, Bomberjet said:

I think 4 games in would give us a very good indication of what to expect - Bills, Browns Pats and Eagles, without Herndon and a raw crew of backs - but the team may not jell until week 8?

That’s a very valid point. I agree with it.

See what I mean now? Instead of leaving a “fly by bf”, we engaged in a conversation. Nobody’s upset, and we gained a measure of respect for each other and our opinions even though we didn’t agree initially.

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13 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m not involved in this discussion, but I didn’t know this. Nice job here, nut.

Better, that made people, after the combine, claim he's Donaldson.

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15 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m not involved in this discussion, but I didn’t know this. Nice job here, nut.

Except he neglected to point out that Ed Oliver played NT for Houston.  

Oliver will be better than Q.  

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Except he neglected to point out that Ed Oliver played NT for Houston.  

Oliver will be better than Q.  

Or that he played in 7 less games. 

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Except he neglected to point out that Ed Oliver played NT for Houston.  

Oliver will be better than Q.  

 

2 minutes ago, RobR said:

Or that he played in 7 less games. 

I wanted Oliver also guys, and I still think we’re going to regret not taking him.

But Q is who we have. At least @Jet Nut made me feel a little better about that.

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Just now, 14 in Green said:

 

I wanted Oliver also guys, and I still think we’re going to regret not taking him.

But Q is who we have. At least @Jet Nut made me feel a little better about that.

Glad you were comforted by one of JN's biggest homers.  Good on you?

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Glad you were comforted by one of JN's biggest homers.  Good on you?

Play nice, 80... 😘

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On 8/13/2019 at 8:19 AM, Dcat said:

What should he have done?  You accept a trade down (and there were multiple offers) even if it is a bit below chart value.  That way you get both an OL and an Edge rusher.  Stubborn Mac couldn't pull the trigger.  I have no doubt he was concerned about public perception and trade chart value.  

Exactly, the guy is total idiot, and you know what?  He himself KNOWS it.

His Modus Operandi was to ALWAYS go with the safe pick that would first and foremost protect the job he never deserved and if he strayed even slightly from that route he would make sure he had a “built in excuse” ready.  Hackenberg becomes one of the worst 2nd Rd picks in NFL history?  “That’s ok,  at least he wasn’t 1st Rd, John Elway has done plenty of them”, and if he hits that lottery ticket the Idiot now looks like a Genius to all.

I knew he’d never trade down.  Why?  Because I know he doesn’t even trust himself making a pick outside the Top 3.  

I know it’s an impossibility but I would have LOVED to see Maccagnan inside the Jet War Room if Gettleman would have done the smart thing and drafted Darnold, what the hell would Maccagnan have done then? He would have been sweating for sure having probably p*ssed away 3 #2’s, to pick whom?  Can’t take Barkley because he knew either he brings in a Franchise QB or he loses his job.  He had consistently played the SAME weak cards ie making scared, safe roster decisions, over and over until now his back was to the wall.  He didn’t trust himself to draft a QB so he made a play to dump lots of the Jet bank account on Cousins, who might put up numbers against bad teams, but he never wins against good ones, 4-26.

 

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