Could Leo have played TOO MANY snaps?

[jgb]

Even if Leonard Williams is “merely” “solid” or even “average,” teams need a ton of those kind of players.

[genot]

2 minutes ago, RobR said:

You should of held out for odds. 

[genot]

3 minutes ago, RobR said:

You should of held out for odds. 

Ye, of little faith!!!

[RobR]

1 minute ago, genot said:

Ye, of little faith!!!

It's called sanity, although I hope you end up winning the bet. 

[genot]

4 minutes ago, RobR said:

It's called sanity, although I hope you end up winning the bet. 

If you look at where leo's ranked with regards to pressures and QB, hits. I don't think it's far fetched to believe that with one, possibly two impact players being added to the front 7, those sack numbers will go up. How much. We'll see.

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

@bitonti has been saying this about Leonard Williams for well over a year. 

what if you played a defensive tackle with the agility numbers of a fire hydrant for more snaps than he’s earned? Would he make more plays? 

[Jetsfan80]

Wilkerson was a dog. he played at half speed most of the time.

Leonard has some dog-like characteristics. He also isn’t nearly as talented as Richardson or Wilkerson were.

[Larz]

So Leo is “it “ now?

[Greenbloodblitz]

5 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Jet fans excuses for Leonard williams being terrible:

1- he gets double teamed

2- todd bowles 

3- he gets too much playing time(this is the most hysterical imo)

What other lame excuses am I missing?

He has too much hair! He's too much of a nice guy! He's incredibly tradable as he would be more valuable someplace else. He should have more sacks right?

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Yet somehow this wasn't an issue for the extraordinarily less costly Henry Anderson in that same lineup last year.  Let's just call it what it is.  Leo is by no means a bad player, but in the end he's simply a solid starter who hasn't come close to living up to his billing.  It's not magically everyone else's fault but his own that he's not what we had all hoped he would be.  If he steps up his game this year, then the credit certainly belongs to him in the end, just as any disappointment has him to blame.

 

 

[The Crusher]

5 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Jet fans excuses for Leonard williams being terrible:

1- he gets double teamed

2- todd bowles 

3- he gets too much playing time(this is the most hysterical imo)

What other lame excuses am I missing?

Stupid commercial were he puts a fish tank on his head.

[Joe W. Namath]

40 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Stupid commercial were he puts a fish tank on his head.

Hahahahahaha.

The best thing hes done as a jet is carry darren lee out of the club so he didnt get in trouble.

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

A run-stuffing DT as the #6 overall pick (that some even attempted to laud as the draft's best player at the time) in the current day passing-centric league is still in fact a failure to live up to the billing.  Particularly when some are trying to make such a ridiculous argument as to why his shortcomings as a pass rusher should be considered the fault of everyone but himself, including other players who have outperformed him in that area at the same time.

Bottom line, there's still plenty of room for his improvement, and he may very well show that this year, but the fault of still needing that 4 years in is only his own.

[BurnleyJet]

7 hours ago, genot said:

Wikerson had his best year when Williams was a rookie. Williams in his 2nd year had better numbers than Wilkerson. The only stat that Mo trumped Williams, was in sack numbers. All the the other metrics were basically the same. Exept in 2016. Mo had 4 sacks, Leo had 7.

I’ve said before about this, the obvious stat analysis and concern is the year on year decline in tackles. 

63 and 68 tackles in years one and two, down to lows of 47 and 42, despite playing all 16 games, and apparently to many snaps.

He’s neither disruptive, nor a game changer. He’s a good solid pro.

He’s not worth 18 mill per, or the 14 per we are paying him for his 5th year option.

Anyone who thinks he’s turning into JJ Watt, Aaron Donald all of a sudden is going to be disappointed. He’s averaged just over 4 sacks per year.

 

[Jetster]

15 hours ago, Spoot-Face said:

If only Nathan Shepherd had more starts last season, Leo would've had more sacks.

Everyone knows that you want your best players to play as little as possible.

I posted this thread after listening to Gregg Williams press conference. Unlike past coaches here, these guys are using tape to determine who stays & who goes. Williams made it VERY CLEAR it's much easier for an Olineman to play every snap than an inside DT. If you watch a lot of NFL football you'll rarely see teams that can generate inside pressure. Aaron Donald is the best in the league & that combo of him & Suh held the Pats down in the Super Bowl but still lost. Obviously Williams noticed the snap count for Leo & determined it was too high. Now you can argue with GW & tell a guy that's been coaching defensive football for 40 years that he doesn't know what he's talking about but Leo did seem to wear down & in some instances appeared to not play to the whistle. Jet fans including myself last year called it being lazy, it appears GW thinks its exhaustion from too many reps. 

If he doesn't get traded we'll get our answer starting in a few weeks.

[BurnleyJet]

10 minutes ago, Jetster said:

I posted this thread after listening to Gregg Williams press conference. Unlike past coaches here, these guys are using tape to determine who stays & who goes. Williams made it VERY CLEAR it's much easier for an Olineman to play every snap than an inside DT. If you watch a lot of NFL football you'll rarely see teams that can generate inside pressure. Aaron Donald is the best in the league & that combo of him & Suh held the Pats down in the Super Bowl but still lost. Obviously Williams noticed the snap count for Leo & determined it was too high. Now you can argue with GW & tell a guy that's been coaching defensive football for 40 years that he doesn't know what he's talking about but Leo did seem to wear down & in some instances appeared to not play to the whistle. Jet fans including myself last year called it being lazy, it appears GW thinks its exhaustion from too many reps. 

If he doesn't get traded we'll get our answer starting in a few weeks.

Some truth, but I also saw him take plenty of plays off. 

[Apache 51]

Leo is soft.

[Jetster]

5 minutes ago, Apache 51 said:

Leo is soft.

I'd love to be a witness of you telling him to his face that he's soft. That would be fun.

[Apache 51]

Just now, Jetster said:

I'd love to be a witness of you telling him him to his face. 

Why? He is, he's not a killer.

[#27TheDominator]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

what if you played a defensive tackle with the agility numbers of a fire hydrant for more snaps than he’s earned? Would he make more plays? 

I thought his agility numbers were okay, it was his burst score that sucked.  The story from Pepper Johnson is they were obsessed with his length. 

*On edit, his 3 cone time blew goats.  For some reason one of the sites listed him at 65% in agility and 52% in burst.  His speed score is good, but that is no shock since it is mostly size and 40.  Grady Jarrett is the guy Pepper Johnson wanted and they have him at 80& agility and 74% in burst.  I'm not sure how that makes Leonard Williams "the perfect prospect."   

[PepPep]

17 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Jet fans excuses for Leonard williams being terrible:

1- he gets double teamed

2- todd bowles 

3- he gets too much playing time(this is the most hysterical imo)

What other lame excuses am I missing?

Oh, now he's terrible? Really? Leo is a terrible player? 

[Bleedin Green]

30 minutes ago, Jetster said:

I'd love to be a witness of you telling him to his face that he's soft. That would be fun.

Yeah, I mean can you imagine fans ever daring to criticize any professional athlete on a message board?

[PepPep]

11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

 

 

AND HE'S NEVER MISSED A GAME! 

[kmnj]

jet fans year after year hype guys that dont deserve it -when you draft a guy where Leo was drafted you expect a dominant force a game changer a guy other teams fear-Leo has been decent at best. I dont know if he is not in shape or lacks the fire he needs to succeed- I would never extend him for any kind of big money based on what he has shown on the field.

[Jetsfan80]

16 hours ago, jgb said:

Even if Leonard Williams is “merely” “solid” or even “average,” teams need a ton of those kind of players.

Agreed, but hopefully Douglas can find those guys in the middle rounds as opposed to # 6 overall.  

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Agreed, but hopefully Douglas can find those guys in the middle rounds as opposed to # 6 overall.  

Absolutely, I’m mainly directing my comments at people saying he is expendable because he’s an average-plus player (which may be underestimating him). 

Let’s see what his contract demands are before assuming he will demand elite money.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Absolutely, I’m mainly directing my comments at people saying he is expendable because he’s an average-plus player (which may be underestimating him). 

Let’s see what his contract demands are before assuming he will demand elite money.

I'd rather not wait that long.  I hope he has a hot start to the season and then we can move him at the trade deadline.  

[jgb]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

I'd rather not wait that long.  I hope he has a hot start to the season and then we can move him at the trade deadline.  

Also not a bad move

[Jetsfan80]

Even if Leo wants less than market value we should be looking to move on from him after the season.  We drafted Quinnen Williams and have Henry Anderson under contract thru 2021.  Do we really need to have 3 DT's signed long-term? 

Trade Leo when you can and let Nathan Shepherd (under contract thru 2021) absorb his snaps for the remainder of the season and see what he can bring to the table.  

[Joe W. Namath]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Even if Leo wants less than market value we should be looking to move on from him after the season.  We drafted Quinnen Williams and have Henry Anderson under contract thru 2021.  Do we really need to have 3 DT's signed long-term? 

Trade Leo when you can and let Nathan Shepherd (under contract thru 2021) absorb his snaps for the remainder of the season and see what he can bring to the table.  

This makes perfect sense.  The problem is you are not going to get much for him.  A 5th sounds about right.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Joe W. Namath said:

This makes perfect sense.  The problem is you are not going to get much for him.  A 5th sounds about right.

That's why I'm advocating waiting until the trade deadline.  Hopefully he produces and can net us a 4th rounder.  Some contending team with injuries on the DL will be more willing to pay that price.  

[Jet Nut]

11 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

A run-stuffing DT as the #6 overall pick (that some even attempted to laud as the draft's best player at the time) in the current day passing-centric league is still in fact a failure to live up to the billing.  Particularly when some are trying to make such a ridiculous argument as to why his shortcomings as a pass rusher should be considered the fault of everyone but himself, including other players who have outperformed him in that area at the same time.

Bottom line, there's still plenty of room for his improvement, and he may very well show that this year, but the fault of still needing that 4 years in is only his own.

 

Nothing in that tweet says hes just a run stuffing DL.

It says hes a lot better than some fans who expect him to be JJ Watt sacking QBs in a 3-4 complain about.

Sure he can improve, hes 25 and a 4 year player.  And yes, hes doubled every time.  Not seeing that as anything other than fact, not an excuse for him.  

 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Joe W. Namath said:

This makes perfect sense.  The problem is you are not going to get much for him.  A 5th sounds about right.

LOL.

 

[Joe W. Namath]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That's why I'm advocating waiting until the trade deadline.  Hopefully he produces and can net us a 4th rounder.  Some contending team with injuries on the DL will be more willing to pay that price.  

Thats not a bad idea.  If a team is desparate enough maybe they do it.  Would be an absolute steal for us.

[Bleedin Green]

9 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

 

Nothing in that tweet says hes just a run stuffing DL.

It says hes a lot better than some fans who expect him to be JJ Watt sacking QBs in a 3-4 complain about.

Sure he can improve, hes 25 and a 4 year player.  And yes, hes doubled every time.  Not seeing that as anything other than fact, not an excuse for him.  

 

The tweet specifically cites his top statistics as his individual rankings in run defense, mentioning run stops and tackles for loss/no gain (which, by the way, the latter is simply a subset of the former, not a completely different accomplishment).  The only reference to anything passing related mentions QB "hits" (not sacks), and is curiously enough the one that fails to provide any context in how that rates league-wide, so doesn't mean much in attempting to determine relative value.  So yes, in fact, Leo's Mehta-claimed "difference maker" categorization is based on his abilities against the run.

The idea of him being "doubled every time" is also by no measure a fact, considering it's completely false.  While he certainly gets them regularly, that is a circumstance DL players leage-wide have to deal with, including his own teammates who have outperformed him, which absolutely makes it an excuse.

The funny thing is I don't think Leo is at all a bad player, and had no issues with him as much as with Macc's mind-numbingly stupid tripling down on the team's greatest position of strength, but the level of excuse-making and unearned overrating of him around here is a tad excessive.