In hindsight, how awesome was that Jets/Colts trade for Darnold?

[slimjasi]

17 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

 It’s mostly a Jets problem.

Lol no

[Losmeister]

3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Dont get me wrong. That was one of the three most enjoyable seasons, "just as a Jets fan" I had of the 2000's. 

I still have to keep in mind who this guy is though. 

It's Fitzmagic, and that magic will play tricks on you. 

i feel ya. my hope was that they just signed him sright away...  i think the fact that they waited to the last made all the difference, or, maybe it didnt matter...  that he'd do his thing as per the diagram.

still bettern mclown, imho.

 

[TuscanyTile2]

6 hours ago, Dcat said:

Hindsight is pointless, except to learn from one's mistakes.  Had the giants selected darnold and mac took rosen or even Allen, how good would it have looked? Too bad for Colts, but "This is the business we have chosen" -Hyman Roth 

When Luck told the Colts' owner that he was considering retirement, the owner laid the money for the rest of Luck's contract on the table and said "I'm going to take a nap. When I wake up, if the money is off the table, I'll know I have a partner. If it isn't, I'll know I don't."

[Villain The Foe]

12 hours ago, Losmeister said:

i feel ya. my hope was that they just signed him sright away...  i think the fact that they waited to the last made all the difference, or, maybe it didnt matter...  that he'd do his thing as per the diagram.

still bettern mclown, imho.

 

I was just as pissed when Macc paid McCown 10 million to be a mentor. Just hire him as a coach. What's the point of paying 10 million to a back up that will not compete to make the starter better? 

And the "Sam can learn watching McCown play" is a farce as well. When Darnold was injured, I doubt Darnold learned anything substantial from the 10 million dollar man who completed less than 55% of his passes, threw 1TD and was picked 4 times over a 3 game stretch. 

It upsets me that Macc was able to run this team into the ground like that. Sure, he's gone, but I've dedicated more than 20 years to this team and I know that's a walk in the park for some folks here. There are folks who actually seen Namath play. 

It just frustrates me to watch a guy pay Fitz like that in 2016 which immediately tells you that this guy is not the correct person for the job and you still have to wait 3 years before he's finally out of the door. 

[More Cowbell]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Based on what exactly?

The guy is an athletic beast. He can throw the ball a mile and runs like a gazelle.  He just needs to figure it out and work on what he needs to to be a success.  

[Integrity28]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

If you cant just watch Darnold and see the gigantic chasm of talent and ability over Geno and Sanchz I dont know what to say. Let's think about it

Arm strength Darnold >=Geno>Sanchez

Footwork Darnold > Sanchez >>Geno

Short Accuracy (swing passes/screens) Darnold (see TD pass last night)>>>Geno>>Sanchez (maybe worst screen passer of a Jets starter ever)

Release speed Darnold > Sanchez > Geno

Movement in pocket Darnold >> Sanchez >> Geno

Ball Security Darnold > Sanchez .=Geno

Scrambling Geno>Darnold>=Sanchez

Deep Ball Sanchez > Darnold >Geno

Work Ethic Darnold>>>Geno/Sanchez

Leadership Darnold=Sanchez>>>Geno

Throwing on the run Darnold=Mahomes=Rodgers>>>>Sanchez>>Geno (Genos worst attribute, Darnold's best)

Football intelligence Darnold >Sanchez>>Geno

Medium Accuracy Darnold>Sanchez=Geno

Creativity/Improvization Darnold>>Sanchez>>>>Geno (behind the back fumble anyone)

 

So again  Sanchez and Geno were competent QBs and Darnold is essentially better to MUCH better than them in pretty much every QB metric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of words, but you’re missing my point.

[Integrity28]

4 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Lol no

How many QBs three for over 4,000 yards last year? 3,500? 20+ TDs.

It used to be hard to find QBs that hit these benchmarks. Now it’s table stakes. The new rules have made it far easier to find a QB.

Look at it like this. If the Cowboys cut Dak, how many teams are realistically bringing him in? Probably about 5 teams.

[Patriot Killa]

3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Look at it like this. If the Cowboys cut Dak, how many teams are realistically bringing him in? Probably about 5 teams.

I’d say definitely the Colts lmao.

[Rangers9]

5 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I don’t dispute that he looks the part. Never said he didn’t. The moral of the story here is that I’d rather have a great roster with the resources to go after a prospect better than Sam next year, than Sam surrounded by mostly trash and a roster that will require a couple years worth of work.

You don’t have to agree. Jets fans over-index on the impossible nature of finding a QB because the Jets haven’t, but look around the league. It’s mostly a Jets problem.

Well there's plenty of other good transactions by Macc like Herndon, Bell could be another A+ signing (and at a good price) , Henry Anderson, Crowder, Harrison, Luvu, Mosley, Shell, Jason Myers, Andre Roberts, Lachlan Edwards, etc. And you can't not give Macc credit and say it was someone else under him. Is that enough good players. The answer is NO. But it's not a zero. His grade is probably a C. 

[Billsfan64]

11 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I think Allen still has the highest ceiling of anyone in that class but the Bill's are just such a bad team at this point. 

What makes you think the Bills are such a bad team. I’m guessing after cuts next week you would swap the Bills 53 for the Jets 53 in a New York minute.

[Greenseed4]

1 minute ago, Billsfan64 said:

What makes you think the Bills are such a bad team. I’m guessing after cuts next week you would swap the Bills 53 for the Jets 53 in a New York minute.

Who is your starting RB?

(For FF purposes)

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

How many QBs three for over 4,000 yards last year? 3,500? 20+ TDs.

It used to be hard to find QBs that hit these benchmarks. Now it’s table stakes. The new rules have made it far easier to find a QB.

It’s not about hitting mundane/routine statistical benchmarks. The new rules haven’t made it easier to find a QB, they have made throwing for 4,000 yards a much less impressive accomplishment than it used to be.

It’s about having a guy you can build a perennial contender around. It’s about having a guy who gives you a chance to win every game you play, and ideally, is a big reason why you win most of the games you play.

I’m sorry, but those guys are not easy to come by. Darnold has a legit chance to be one of those guys.

 

[MCGAHEE2121]

its not semantics. They two completely different parts of being a qb. One is actual throwing. The other is decision making

 

Farve early in his career was not inaccurate. He was wild and inefficient.

 

Allen is farve but 6'5 260lbs and runs like a db

 

 

[Villain The Foe]

6 minutes ago, MCGAHEE2121 said:

its not semantics. They two completely different parts of being a qb. One is actual throwing. The other is decision making

 

Farve early in his career was not inaccurate. He was wild and inefficient.

 

Allen is farve but 6'5 260lbs and runs like a db

 

 

 

Yes, Farve was never inaccurate, but had a gun slinger mentality which got him in trouble from time to time. 

I've never seen Favre throw a 10 yard pass to a wide open receiver in the dirt as Ive seen Allen do. 

Allen is inaccurate and inefficient. 

[Scoop24]

10 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I was just as pissed when Macc paid McCown 10 million to be a mentor. Just hire him as a coach. What's the point of paying 10 million to a back up that will not compete to make the starter better? 

And the "Same can learn watching McCown play" is a farce as well. When Darnold was injured, I doubt Darnold learned anything substantial from the 10 million dollar man who completed less than 55% of his passes, threw 1TD and was picked 4 times over a 3 game stretch. 

It upsets me that Macc was able to run this team into the ground like that. Sure, he's gone, but I've dedicated more than 20 years to this team and I know that's a walk in the park for some folks here. There are folks who actually seen Namath play. 

It just frustrates me to watch a guy pay Fitz like that in 2016 which immediately tells you that this guy is not the correct person for the job and you still have to wait 3 years before he's finally out of the door. 

if you think Sam didn’t learn anything from McCown you clearly weren’t paying attention which is easy considering our season was over pretty early last year. But Just look at the difference in how Sam used Robby before injury and after he came back .

Furthermore Sam even said watching McCown for that little stretch was huge for him in interviews. 

Agree about fitz tho .. 

[Scoop24]

7 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

Who is your starting RB?

(For FF purposes)

Josh Allen lol

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, Scoop24 said:

if you think Sam didn’t learn anything from McCown you clearly weren’t paying attention which is easy considering our season was over pretty early last year. But Just look at the difference in how Sam used Robby before injury and after he came back .

Furthermore Sam even said watching McCown for that little stretch was huge for him in interviews. 

Agree about fitz tho .. 

Or maybe Sam was more comfortable in a new league, new team, new offensive scheme from new coaches and new players. 

You cannot provide examples that McCown played any direct major part in Sam's ability to play better, but there are endless examples of players playing better with  more time in the league and around a system and players in order to establish a chemistry. 

Was Sam reallly going to say that watching McCown complete less than 55% of his passes while throwing 4 INT's to 1TD was not huge for him? Of course he's going to keep it professional. 

[JetsLife]

13 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I don’t dispute that he looks the part. Never said he didn’t. The moral of the story here is that I’d rather have a great roster with the resources to go after a prospect better than Sam next year, than Sam surrounded by mostly trash and a roster that will require a couple years worth of work.

You don’t have to agree. Jets fans over-index on the impossible nature of finding a QB because the Jets haven’t, but look around the league. It’s mostly a Jets problem.

Unsure if that’s the case. Legit perennial/new contenders have one rare attribute in common: a truly elite franchise QB. And there are what, roughly 6ish of those going around at any time? In a 32 team league that’s a very low percentage. And by definition means it’s very difficult hitting on a franchise QB in the draft. 

And without an elite franchise QB, you’re not a perennial SB contender. And obviously that’s always the only thing that matters. Otherwise you’re KC pre Mahomes: perennial very good roster, only to bow out in the WC or divisional round year after year for what seemed liked forever. Now with an elite talent like Mahomes: they came within a hair of getting over the AFC hump last year.  

There are teams with ‘serviceable franchise QBs’ such as Carolina, Houston, Dallas to name a few off the top. But are they viewed as legit perennial SB threats? Otherwise its teams anchored by elite franchise QBs Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Brees, Wilson, Ryan, Wentz, Goff & Trubisky - and one could argue you with the latter two - far more likely to be the last one standing. 

 

[Philc1]

19 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Yes. The Jets have 5-6 legit NFL players. The Colts have a roster. I’d make the best of it this year, then since I have a roster I’d throw whatever draft capital I have to at getting a QB next year.

Colts have a good situation, all things considered.

It was a good trade for both teams

 

Even after the Luck debacle the colts can still draft a qb next spring whoever it is will have a top 5 O-line

 

[Integrity28]

7 hours ago, slimjasi said:

It’s not about hitting mundane/routine statistical benchmarks. The new rules haven’t made it easier to find a QB, they have made throwing for 4,000 yards a much less impressive accomplishment than it used to be.

It’s about having a guy you can build a perennial contender around. It’s about having a guy who gives you a chance to win every game you play, and ideally, is a big reason why you win most of the games you play.

I’m sorry, but those guys are not easy to come by. Darnold has a legit chance to be one of those guys.

 

So do the top 3 QBs in next years draft, except the ‘build around’ part is already done. Hence my point. Colts have a plug-n-play situation for a top QB prospect, because of their roster. Jets have the QB prospect, but minimal assets around him = it’s going to take longer to build around him. You’re kind of solidifying my point.

Its cool if you don’t agree because your a fan of Sam (I am too), but that doesn’t invalidate facts.

[Integrity28]

41 minutes ago, JetsLife said:

Unsure if that’s the case. Legit perennial/new contenders have one rare attribute in common: a truly elite franchise QB. And there are what, roughly 6ish of those going around at any time? In a 32 team league that’s a very low percentage. And by definition means it’s very difficult hitting on a franchise QB in the draft. 

And without an elite franchise QB, you’re not a perennial SB contender. And obviously that’s always the only thing that matters. Otherwise you’re KC pre Mahomes: perennial very good roster, only to bow out in the WC or divisional round year after year for what seemed liked forever. Now with an elite talent like Mahomes: they came within a hair of getting over the AFC hump last year.  

There are teams with ‘serviceable franchise QBs’ such as Carolina, Houston, Dallas to name a few off the top. But are they viewed as legit perennial SB threats? Otherwise its teams anchored by elite franchise QBs Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, Brees, Wilson, Ryan, Wentz, Goff & Trubisky - and one could argue you with the latter two - far more likely to be the last one standing. 

 

WUT

[Scoop24]

48 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Or maybe Sam was more comfortable in a new league, new team, new offensive scheme from new coaches and new players. 

You cannot provide examples that McCown played any direct major part in Sam's ability to play better, but there are endless examples of players playing better with  more time in the league and around a system and players in order to establish a chemistry. 

Was Sam reallly going to say that watching McCown complete less than 55% of his passes while throwing 4 INT's to 1TD not huge for him? Of course he's going to keep it professional. 

You say I cant provide examples . I clearly listed  they way he used Robby before the injury using him mostly as a deep threat to after injury where he used him in variety Ways. the same way McCown used him the year prior to last and when he had to start The few games he did last year . It’s not all about stats . Just seeing how McCown used his weapons , handled certain defenses, protections etc . I forget which one of the 100 interviews I watched but there was one he went pretty in depth on what he got to learn from watching McCown play for that small stretch of games and how he felt just being able to step back and watch helped him a lot.. he literally car pooled with McCown all year last year . 

[Villain The Foe]

26 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

WUT

You heard him. Trubisky is "Elite" 

???

[Villain The Foe]

17 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

You say I cant provide examples . I clearly listed  they way he used Robby before the injury using him mostly as a deep threat to after injury where he used him in variety Ways. 

Yes, you clearly listed how Sam used Robby before and after the injury. But what you didnt provide is the example of how McCown had any direct influence on that. You're assuming, in otherwords. 

Stating Sam's better chemistry with Robby doesnt immediately make McCown the reason for the chemistry. There's a better reason that can be deduced by using the same situation, such as "experience". 

Experience can literally be used for the progression. 

[nyjunc]

It was a great trade for both teams at the time, a trade we will look back on as the greatest in team history of Sam turns out to be great.

[Scoop24]

23 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Yes, you clearly listed how Sam used Robby before and after the injury. But what you didnt provide is the example of how McCown had any direct influence on that. You're assuming, in otherwords. 

Stating Sam's better chemistry with Robby doesnt immediately make McCown the reason for the chemistry. There's a better reason that can be deduced by using the same situation, such as "experience". 

Experience can literally be used for the progression. 

You got it bro .. I’m sure you know more what McCown did for Sam. That what Sam is telling us.. 

[JetsLife]

49 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

WUT

Serviceable franchise QB was in quotations - I meant to indicate they're franchise-type QBs, they're QBs many including their own organizations probably view as franchise QBs - but they're not in the category of the truly elite franchise QBs I mentioned.

I said Goff & Trubisky are arguably in that group - meaning maybe not, jury is out. Too small sample size. But Goff certainly looked pretty good last year. And with the raw talent he possesses, his very good 2018 season culminating in a Super Bowl berth - there's a legit chance he may become one of the elite. Trubisky - also looks very promising. But overall I concede on second thought I shouldn't have included those two in there.

Otherwise you cherry picked those two points, completely avoiding my broader points and the hole in your logic. Unless, that is, you're satisfied with being a KC pre Mahomes: your very good roster with no elite QB to bring you to the Promised Land. Me, all I care about is the Jets winning the Super Bowl. And the best odds to achieve that is having an elite franchise QB. Perennial Super Bowl threats have that kind of QB. The remaining teams don't and aren't perennial SB threats.

 

[JetsLife]

1 minute ago, JetsLife said:

Serviceable franchise QB was in quotations - I meant to indicate they're franchise-type QBs, they're QBs many including their own organizations probably view as franchise QBs - but they're not in the category of the truly elite franchise QBs I mentioned.

I said Goff & Trubisky are arguably in that group - meaning maybe not, jury is out. Too small sample size. But Goff certainly looked pretty good last year. And with the raw talent he possesses, his very good 2018 season culminating in a Super Bowl berth - there's a legit chance he may become one of the elite. Trubisky - also looks very promising. But overall I concede on second thought I shouldn't have included those two in there.

Otherwise you cherry picked those two points, completely avoiding my broader points and the hole in your logic. Unless, that is, you're satisfied with being a KC pre Mahomes: your very good roster with no elite QB to bring you to the Promised Land. Me, all I care about is the Jets winning the Super Bowl. And the best odds to achieve that is having an elite franchise QB. Perennial Super Bowl threats have that kind of QB. The remaining teams don't and aren't perennial SB threats.

 

And mind you are 1000% right the Jets look far from a perennial SB team in terms of their roster; that they're missing various critical pieces. Not to mention an unproven HC. As you accurately pointed the Jets gave up a ton for Darnold, making it all the more difficult to win big this year. We'll see.

[Villain The Foe]

10 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

You got it bro .. I’m sure you know more what McCown did for Sam. That what Sam is telling us.. 

Lets do this, if you can show me an article, interview, anything where Sam is telling us that his newly found (at the time) connection with Robby was due to McCown, I'll accept that. 

I never heard Sam tell us anything like that. 

[Scoop24]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Lets do this, if you can show me an article, interview, anything where Sam is telling us that his newly found (at the time) connection with Robby was due to McCown, I'll accept that. 

I never heard Sam tell us anything like that. 

 I’m not im just gonna leave it at McCown did nothing for Sam . Waste of money 

[Jethead]

9 hours ago, Billsfan64 said:

What makes you think the Bills are such a bad team. I’m guessing after cuts next week you would swap the Bills 53 for the Jets 53 in a New York minute.

Uh, no thanks. No more than I’d swap Buffalo for NYC. 

[Jethead]

Get the QB. Figure out the rest. It’s a complete no brainer. At any cost.

New England and New Orleans are the perfect examples.

[Villain The Foe]

1 hour ago, Scoop24 said:

 I’m not im just gonna leave it at McCown did nothing for Sam . Waste of money 

Your choice, though no one said that McCown did nothing for Sam.

No need to be so extreme. 

[slimjasi]

4 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

So do the top 3 QBs in next years draft, except the ‘build around’ part is already done. Hence my point. Colts have a plug-n-play situation for a top QB prospect, because of their roster. Jets have the QB prospect, but minimal assets around him = it’s going to take longer to build around him. You’re kind of solidifying my point

Again, the colts are going to be competing with a bunch of teams (dolphins,  broncos, bengals, redskins, etc.) for the right to even draft one of those guys

And, if their roster is as good as you are making it out to be, they will not be at the very top of the draft.

We already have Sam - a guy who has already gotten through the rookie wall and looks a lot stronger after hurdling it.

 

 

 

[Integrity28]

4 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Again, the colts are going to be competing with a bunch of teams (dolphins,  broncos, bengals, redskins, etc.) for the right to even draft one of those guys

And, if their roster is as good as you are making it out to be, they will not be at the very top of the draft.

We already have Sam - a guy who has already gotten through the rookie wall and looks a lot stronger after hurdling it.

 

 

 

We’ve come to the point where you are saying back to me things I’ve acknowledged, and considered, in my initial opinion. Like I said, I’m not trying to change minds here. I stated an opinion and a handful of people with rose colored glasses have offered rebuttals that just don’t stand up. No biggie. Don’t agree? No problem, but stop countering the fact that the Colts have a better roster that is primed for inserting the QB next year with hyperbole about Sam being a franchise QB before he truly proves it. In a year, I hope you are right. Right now, the pragmatist in me says the Colts feels like the safer bet than accepting that after 50 years the Jets found a QB.