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Bellichek puts edelman out there tonight who re-injured his thumb.


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11 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Why you would put edelman in a preseason week 4 game is beyond me.  Bellichek will get heat for this one.  Looks like he re-injured the same thumb that kept him out most of the preseason.

Also, this Stidham guy is the next tom brady and him and bellichek will torment us for the next 10 years.  Unbelievable.

Better off finding out now. 

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I don't wish injury on any player, but if it happens to anyone on the Pats so be it. 16 games. Edelman is going on 34, Thomas is going on 32 & a good safety can cover him & Gordon is always one step out the door. 

What are the odds that all 3 last all season? 

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13 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Darnold is better, but in NE its the system, not the qb.

Brady is not the GOAT if he didnt fall into the perfect system.  Brady is all work ethic, toughness, accuracy and obsession with the sport.  As an athlete, hes not talented at all.

If brady was drafted by the lions, we wouldnt even know his name.

If Stidham can master the system, watch out.

Ok whatever

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3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Not really.  What proof can anyone show that Elway, Montana, Brady, Brees any of the best of the best are/were the best because of a system?  

If you hate Brady, are sick of his success and his annoying ways you try to take credit away from him as if at the end of the day anyone would agree with you.

They won't.  

This just reads like a very odd perspective.  My point was simply that some QBs are more system dependent than others.  I believe that to be 100% true.  I'm not taking anything away from Brady, he has raised the level of play of the guys around him for years, has played for close to 20 years now with probably over 100 pass catchers, but there's a system that he works best in and there's been continuity with that system over years even as the OCs have changed.  Joe Montana is a great QB, no doubt about it, but he thrived in a revolutionary system that tilted the field in his favor for years until the league caught up with it.

The statement you made that, "you try to take credit away from him as if at the end of the day anyone would agree with you," is very odd.  Is this an attack on me or my opinion?  You seem to indicate that not a single person would agree with what I wrote (even as at least two people gave positive feedback to my reply).  I'm sorry if my opinion offended your feelings for Tom Brady.

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16 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Darnold is better, but in NE its the system, not the qb.

Brady is not the GOAT if he didnt fall into the perfect system.  Brady is all work ethic, toughness, accuracy and obsession with the sport.  As an athlete, hes not talented at all.

If brady was drafted by the lions, we wouldnt even know his name.

If Stidham can master the system, watch out.

Joe W Namath afraid of Stidham...

thats a rather sacless take....

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16 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Darnold is better, but in NE its the system, not the qb.

Brady is not the GOAT if he didnt fall into the perfect system.  Brady is all work ethic, toughness, accuracy and obsession with the sport.  As an athlete, hes not talented at all.

If brady was drafted by the lions, we wouldnt even know his name.

If Stidham can master the system, watch out.

Without Tom Brady:

Bill belichick 5 losing seasons in 7 years, 54-63 record, 1 playoff appearance as a WC team, 1 playoff win in WC Rd as home team (back when WC teams could host)

His coaching tree as HCs without Brady:

Romeo Crennell: 5+ seasons, 28-55 record, zero playoff apps

Josh McDaniels: 1+ season, 11-17 record. Fired after just 28 games, zero playoff apps

Eric Mangini: 5 seasons, 33-47, 1 WC playoff app, zero playoff wins

Jim Schwartz: 5 seasons, 29-51 record, zero playoff apps

Bill O'brien: 5 seasons, 42-38 record, 1-2 playoff record(home WC playoff win)

Matt Patricia: 1 season so far, 6-10 record

 

Bill belichick with Tom Brady: 17 seasons, 16 division titles, 6 SB titles, 9 conference titles, 207-60 record, 30-10 postseason

 

Yeah, it's the "system"??

 

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17 hours ago, jgb said:

Wow. Not an athlete? Can’t run fast ok but he throws one of the best YAC balls in NFL history.

easy to throw yac balls when the receivers are so open.  not to take anything away from tommy boy but he has benefitted greatly from a system that has players who are disciplined and run good routes.  and he's able to make his oline look pretty darn good because he's able to throw the ball so quickly.

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39 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Without Tom Brady:

Bill belichick 5 losing seasons in 7 years, 54-63 record, 1 playoff appearance as a WC team, 1 playoff win in WC Rd as home team (back when WC teams could host)

His coaching tree as HCs without Brady:

Romeo Crennell: 5+ seasons, 28-55 record, zero playoff apps

Josh McDaniels: 1+ season, 11-17 record. Fired after just 28 games, zero playoff apps

Eric Mangini: 5 seasons, 33-47, 1 WC playoff app, zero playoff wins

Jim Schwartz: 5 seasons, 29-51 record, zero playoff apps

Bill O'brien: 5 seasons, 42-38 record, 1-2 playoff record(home WC playoff win)

Matt Patricia: 1 season so far, 6-10 record

 

Bill belichick with Tom Brady: 17 seasons, 16 division titles, 6 SB titles, 9 conference titles, 207-60 record, 30-10 postseason

 

Yeah, it's the "system"??

 

uh, that coaching tree is also without the bellichicken.  give brady his due for being able to perform at a top level for so many years but it's still the system that makes it all work.

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18 minutes ago, rangerous said:

uh, that coaching tree is also without the bellichicken.  give brady his due for being able to perform at a top level for so many years but it's still the system that makes it all work.

If it was the system it would work without Brady.

 

BB without Brady(7+ seasons):

54-63, 46%

5 losing seasons

1 WC playoff app

1 WC playoff win (home)

Zero div titles

Zero conf title apps

Zero SBs

 

BB with Brady (almost 17 full seasons):

207-60, 78%

16 playoff apps

16 division titles

13 conf title apps

9 conference titles

6 SB wins

 

Yeah, it's the "system"?

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8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

If it was the system it would work without Brady.

 

BB without Brady(7+ seasons):

54-63, 46%

5 losing seasons

1 WC playoff app

1 WC playoff win (home)

Zero div titles

Zero conf title apps

Zero SBs

 

BB with Brady (almost 17 full seasons):

207-60, 78%

16 playoff apps

16 division titles

13 conf title apps

9 conference titles

6 SB wins

 

Yeah, it's the "system"?

the bellichicken in cleveland was more of a case, imo, of a guy being in a bad position.  he started out with a sore armed kosar at qb and ended with vinnie. and then had a moron for an owner in modell.  then he goes to the patsies with bledsoe and wins 5 and then mo lewis knocks bledsoe into the other world and brady comes on.  but lets not forget the cheating plus matt cassel going 10-6 in that same system.  it's not fair to give brady all of the credit.

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56 minutes ago, rangerous said:

easy to throw yac balls when the receivers are so open.  not to take anything away from tommy boy but he has benefitted greatly from a system that has players who are disciplined and run good routes.  and he's able to make his oline look pretty darn good because he's able to throw the ball so quickly.

Sometimes it’s best not to overthink it. A QB doesn’t win 6 SBs unless he is historically elite.

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37 minutes ago, rangerous said:

the bellichicken in cleveland was more of a case, imo, of a guy being in a bad position.  he started out with a sore armed kosar at qb and ended with vinnie. and then had a moron for an owner in modell.  then he goes to the patsies with bledsoe and wins 5 and then mo lewis knocks bledsoe into the other world and brady comes on.  but lets not forget the cheating plus matt cassel going 10-6 in that same system.  it's not fair to give brady all of the credit.

Parcells won 12 games and a division title with Vinny, Herm won 10 games with Vinny.

Cleveland had just been to 3 AFC championship games in 5 years before BB got there and Kosar was 28.

In NE it was more of the same until Brady came in.  They were 5-13(with a QB that was 93-82 with all either HCs) then magically a dynasty was born the moment Brady became the starter.  All because of the "system"?

Matt Cassell lost FIVE more games than the year before and they missed the playoffs.  The same Matt Cassell who would win a division title just 2 years later in KC.

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3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

This just reads like a very odd perspective.  My point was simply that some QBs are more system dependent than others.  I believe that to be 100% true.  I'm not taking anything away from Brady, he has raised the level of play of the guys around him for years, has played for close to 20 years now with probably over 100 pass catchers, but there's a system that he works best in and there's been continuity with that system over years even as the OCs have changed.  Joe Montana is a great QB, no doubt about it, but he thrived in a revolutionary system that tilted the field in his favor for years until the league caught up with it.

 

Yea I don't buy that.  Every qb is to a certain extent, but I don't get why you single out Montana and Brady as system qbs given that they are the clear GOATs and have ridiculous skillsets that straddle multiple categories?  I mean it doesn't really make sense... Marino or Manning certainly couldn't play in as many offenses as someone like Joe Montana.  Certainly not the west coast offense, or anything that requires qb mobility (which is at least half of modern offenses and more than that in college).

Meanwhile the notion that qbs like Carson Palmer have offenses where they would thrive more than Brady is suspect at best.  Please tell me a single thing Carson Palmer does better than Brady other than having a faster 40 time (which makes absolutely zero difference, given that Palmer banged up his knees early in his career and was dirt slow from then on).

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3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

This just reads like a very odd perspective.  My point was simply that some QBs are more system dependent than others.  I believe that to be 100% true.  I'm not taking anything away from Brady, he has raised the level of play of the guys around him for years, has played for close to 20 years now with probably over 100 pass catchers, but there's a system that he works best in and there's been continuity with that system over years even as the OCs have changed.  Joe Montana is a great QB, no doubt about it, but he thrived in a revolutionary system that tilted the field in his favor for years until the league caught up with it.

The statement you made that, "you try to take credit away from him as if at the end of the day anyone would agree with you," is very odd.  Is this an attack on me or my opinion?  You seem to indicate that not a single person would agree with what I wrote (even as at least two people gave positive feedback to my reply).  I'm sorry if my opinion offended your feelings for Tom Brady.

Not an attack on you or your opinion.

Just kind of hoping that you look back and realize what you're saying.

QBs who are elite are elite because they have elite talent, not because of their HC's system

 

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33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Not an attack on you or your opinion.

Just kind of hoping that you look back and realize what you're saying.

QBs who are elite are elite because they have elite talent, not because of their HC's system

 

 

56 minutes ago, Hael said:

Yea I don't buy that.  Every qb is to a certain extent, but I don't get why you single out Montana and Brady as system qbs given that they are the clear GOATs and have ridiculous skillsets that straddle multiple categories?  I mean it doesn't really make sense... Marino or Manning certainly couldn't play in as many offenses as someone like Joe Montana.  Certainly not the west coast offense, or anything that requires qb mobility (which is at least half of modern offenses and more than that in college).

Meanwhile the notion that qbs like Carson Palmer have offenses where they would thrive more than Brady is suspect at best.  Please tell me a single thing Carson Palmer does better than Brady other than having a faster 40 time (which makes absolutely zero difference, given that Palmer banged up his knees early in his career and was dirt slow from then on).

 

I'm not falling on a sword over my opinion.  I'm simply trying to say that some QBs will be great regardless of their HC or system, others may not.  Nick Foles was bad as an LA Ram, he was great under Chip Kelly with the Eagles, then great again when Doug Pederson tailored the Eagles offense and pulled a lot of the Chip Kelly stuff into the scheme.  Foles is one of the guys who I'm very interested to see how he performs in a new environment.

As I said above, the last thing I'm doing is saying that Tom Brady or Joe Montana aren't great QBs.  They're two of the best to ever play the game.  But there are some things that stick out.  I think Brady is heavily reliant on a talented slot receiver.  He's benefited from what Wes Welker and now Edelman have done in the slot, to the tune of turning Edelman into a Super Bowl MVP.  Edelman was suspended for 4 games last year.  The Patriots record in those games?  2-2.  Brady was out for the entire 2008 NFL season.  The Patriots record that year?  11-5 with Matt Cassel.  Cassel did great under those coaches.  How well did he do other places?

@Hael mentioned Carson Palmer.  Carson was an excellent QB (and he's an acquaintance of mine) but he was limited.  He made two Pro Bowls early in his career then suffered under some poor coaching IMO in Cincy and then with the Raiders.  He was somewhat reborn under Bruce Arians here in Arizona, but again, Bruce is the Quarterback Whisperer and has that effect on lots of guys.  (Hint:  Take a shot on Jameis Winston in fantasy this year).  The problem with Carson is that he didn't get into the right situation sooner.  It was at the end of his career when he still had the arm but was aging and his mobility was horrible after several leg injuries.  I'd put Carson's arm up against Brady any day when they were both in their primes.

Again, not crapping on Brady here, but I've made some valid points about the environment in which he's been successful.  I'm not talking about deflated footballs or stealing defensive signals, I'm just saying that he's been placed in a somewhat ideal situation that he's succeeded in.  Cassel succeeded as well there...and we'll see if the Patriots turn yet another under-the-radar QB in Jarrett Stidham into something productive with that coaching.

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They don't have a system. They adapt to their personnel that's their "system."

They weren't using Slot receivers and TEs the first half of brady's career. Alot of times they would use Vrabel to catch goal line passes..

Moss and Welker come along-along with Josh McDaniels and they adapted to their skill sets

Gronk and  Hernandez comes along - along with Billy o'Brien and they change the way they approach their offensive sets again..

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6 hours ago, nyjunc said:

If it was the system it would work without Brady.

 

BB without Brady(7+ seasons):

54-63, 46%

5 losing seasons

1 WC playoff app

1 WC playoff win (home)

Zero div titles

Zero conf title apps

Zero SBs

 

BB with Brady (almost 17 full seasons):

207-60, 78%

16 playoff apps

16 division titles

13 conf title apps

9 conference titles

6 SB wins

 

Yeah, it's the "system"?

You're including his Cleveland years.  Interesting.  I see how this works.  Let me try.

Le'Veon Bell is horrible.  Zero yards rushing last year.  Am I doing this right?

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Having lived New England for 35 years & being surrounded by Pats fans these discussions on Brady & Belichick arose all the time.

The bottom line is both have contributed to the others success, but there ain't no way in hell the Patriots win that many division titles, conference championships & 6 Super Bowls WITHOUT BRADY. 

Bill Belichick can scheme up whatever game plan they have but what they can't do is be ON THE FIELD in crunch time. Tom Brady has more comeback wins than any QB in history. The coaches aren't completing pinpoint passes on 3rd & 15, they aren't deftly moving around in the pocket to get 2 more seconds for that WR to get open, they aren't out their reading defenses. 

If Belichick didn't have Brady he'd still be a great coach & his teams would be tough to play based on his preparation. But there is NO WAY IN HELL there'd be as successful in those clutch moments when the need a 1st down to extend the game is that happening as frequently with some other QB. Tom Brady is a surgeon, knows where everyone is at all times, always puts the ball CLOSE to where it should go & made the plays he needed to make to have 8 Super Bowls. Hell, he gave the Pats the lead in both Giants losses. 

Belichick can say what he wants to happen, but only Brady can PHYSICALLY MAKE IT HAPPEN. Sean Payton is a great coach also, but he ain't winning all those games without Drew Brees throwing dimes. 

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10 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

You're including his Cleveland years.  Interesting.  I see how this works.  Let me try.

Le'Veon Bell is horrible.  Zero yards rushing last year.  Am I doing this right?

No, you aren't doing it right.  Even in NE he has a losing record without Brady starting.  The evidence is everywhere, you are just choosing to ignore it.  

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8 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Having lived New England for 35 years & being surrounded by Pats fans these discussions on Brady & Belichick arose all the time.

The bottom line is both have contributed to the others success, but there ain't no way in hell the Patriots win that many division titles, conference championships & 6 Super Bowls WITHOUT BRADY. 

Bill Belichick can scheme up whatever game plan they have but what they can't do is be ON THE FIELD in crunch time. Tom Brady has more comeback wins than any QB in history. The coaches aren't completing pinpoint passes on 3rd & 15, they aren't deftly moving around in the pocket to get 2 more seconds for that WR to get open, they aren't out their reading defenses. 

If Belichick didn't have Brady he'd still be a great coach & his teams would be tough to play based on his preparation. But there is NO WAY IN HELL there'd be as successful in those clutch moments when the need a 1st down to extend the game is that happening as frequently with some other QB. Tom Brady is a surgeon, knows where everyone is at all times, always puts the ball CLOSE to where it should go & made the plays he needed to make to have 8 Super Bowls. Hell, he gave the Pats the lead in both Giants losses. 

Belichick can say what he wants to happen, but only Brady can PHYSICALLY MAKE IT HAPPEN. Sean Payton is a great coach also, but he ain't winning all those games without Drew Brees throwing dimes. 

I mostly agree with your post but I don't think BB would be a great coach if he never had Brady.  I believe he developed into a great coach but he never would have had that time if not for Brady coming in and winning.  I think he could succeed without him now (not a dynasty level but I think he could be a playoff coach without him) but not back in the early 00s and there were already rumblings about his job early in 2001.  He never would have made it.

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They both needed each other. That's it. Brady doesn't become Brady without BB and BB doesnt become BB without Brady. They both can separate and win because they are both elite in what they do but they probably dont win as much without each other.

 

As there's cases to show how Brady has helped BB. There's cases for BB as well.

 

Most recent this past superbowl. It was more on BB defense than brady doing much to win the superbowl.

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18 hours ago, Drums said:

One day, when Brady finally retires, we will see. If Belli stays, we can judge by the success he has. If he leaves, that’ll tell us as well. 

Belichick will suddenly retire “due to health concerns” coincidentally after Brady retires

 

 

Belichick is the Phil Jackson of football.  Actually, Jackson had more success the year Jordan was retired in 1994 than Belichick ever did without Brady 

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2 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

When the Pats go 12-4 with Sidham next year this question will be answered.

Finally watched the game.  Not surprisingly youre overselling him and apparently werent paying attention

He had ok stats throwing to his starting offense. 

Edelman played. 

Demaryius Thomas played. 

Josh Gordon played

Against supermarket baggers from the Giants.  

Shocking he completed a pass

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2 hours ago, ghost_in_pads02 said:

They both needed each other. That's it. Brady doesn't become Brady without BB and BB doesnt become BB without Brady. They both can separate and win because they are both elite in what they do but they probably dont win as much without each other.

 

As there's cases to show how Brady has helped BB. There's cases for BB as well.

 

Most recent this past superbowl. It was more on BB defense than brady doing much to win the superbowl.

The pats D definitely won the SB vs LA last year but let's not forget they don't get there without a spectacular offensive Performance led by Brady.  They had to outscore KC.

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