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Will Mahomes pass Montana as the best QB ever?

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22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Peyton's rosters were actually pretty terrible, with the exception of Marvin Harrison.  The Colts were incredibly lucky to be propped up by Peyton for as long as they were.  Their owner is a drunk, drug addict, and awful person.  

Peyton’s pedigree, work ethic, and brilliance on and off the field created insane expectations for him before he even stepped foot on an NFL field. That he not only met, but exceeded those expectations speaks to his mastery of the sport. His playoff losses are blown out of proportion by simpletons. Anyone who was paying attention could easily see what you posted above. 

The only QB to break all of the single season passing records twice on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

Broke all of the career passing records at an incredibly fast pace. Some of his records have already been broken by Brady and Brees, but you look at the number of games that it took them to break his, and he’s far outpaced them. Number 1 in efficiency measures tied to winning: sack %age, first down %age, TD %age, effective yards %age.

He had to go against a 20 year dynasty for almost his entire career, and came out of it with a 3-2 record in AFCCG including 3-0 after spygate. In other words, in the 5 most important games of his life against the dynasty (obviously they couldn’t meet in the SB), he went 3-2, and didn’t lose to them after 2005. That’s absolutely insane. After Peyton retired, the dynasty went to 4 straight SBs. 

The only QB to play in 4 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB to win 2 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap; speaks to the false narrative that he played on “stacked teams”) and reach a SB. He did it 4 times. 

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap) and win a SB. He did it 2 times. 

Accomplished all this in 16 years, and the only hint of ever doing anything wrong came from a since redacted al-jazeera article.

I’m not one to say that Brady’s cheating is why Peyton is the G.O.A.T., because that takes away from what Peyton’s accomplished. Peyton is the G.O.A.T. on merit and merit only.

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1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Bonds before steroids was the best player I ever saw

That was the argument.  Bonds vs. Junior, who was the best.

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23 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Peyton's rosters were actually pretty terrible, with the exception of Marvin Harrison.  The Colts were incredibly lucky to be propped up by Peyton for as long as they were.  Their owner is a drunk, drug addict, and awful person.  

Peyton came into the league with Harrison and Marshall Faulk.  Having 2 HOF players around you is nice.

After Faulk they had edgerrin James, who, to me, is borderline HOF.  Then they added Reggie Wayne.

Throw in Dallas Clark and Pierre Garcon (as the #3), he had some people to work with.

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1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Peyton’s pedigree, work ethic, and brilliance on and off the field created insane expectations for him before he even stepped foot on an NFL field. That he not only met, but exceeded those expectations speaks to his mastery of the sport. His playoff losses are blown out of proportion by simpletons. Anyone who was paying attention could easily see what you posted above. 

The only QB to break all of the single season passing records twice on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

Broke all of the career passing records at an incredibly fast pace. Some of his records have already been broken by Brady and Brees, but you look at the number of games that it took them to break his, and he’s far outpaced them. Number 1 in efficiency measures tied to winning: sack %age, first down %age, TD %age, effective yards %age.

He had to go against a 20 year dynasty for almost his entire career, and came out of it with a 3-2 record in AFCCG including 3-0 after spygate. In other words, in the 5 most important games of his life against the dynasty (obviously they couldn’t meet in the SB), he went 3-2, and didn’t lose to them after 2005. That’s absolutely insane. After Peyton retired, the dynasty went to 4 straight SBs. 

The only QB to play in 4 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB to win 2 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap; speaks to the false narrative that he played on “stacked teams”) and reach a SB. He did it 4 times. 

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap) and win a SB. He did it 2 times. 

Accomplished all this in 16 years, and the only hint of ever doing anything wrong came from a since redacted al-jazeera article.

I’m not one to say that Brady’s cheating is why Peyton is the G.O.A.T., because that takes away from what Peyton’s accomplished. Peyton is the G.O.A.T. on merit and merit only.

How many times did Manning NOT get to face the Patriots in the playoffs because his #1 or 2 seeded team was beaten in the first or second round?

Nobody is saying Manning wasn't a great QB, he's just not the GOAT.

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2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Peyton’s pedigree, work ethic, and brilliance on and off the field created insane expectations for him before he even stepped foot on an NFL field. That he not only met, but exceeded those expectations speaks to his mastery of the sport. His playoff losses are blown out of proportion by simpletons. Anyone who was paying attention could easily see what you posted above. 

The only QB to break all of the single season passing records twice on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

Broke all of the career passing records at an incredibly fast pace. Some of his records have already been broken by Brady and Brees, but you look at the number of games that it took them to break his, and he’s far outpaced them. Number 1 in efficiency measures tied to winning: sack %age, first down %age, TD %age, effective yards %age.

He had to go against a 20 year dynasty for almost his entire career, and came out of it with a 3-2 record in AFCCG including 3-0 after spygate. In other words, in the 5 most important games of his life against the dynasty (obviously they couldn’t meet in the SB), he went 3-2, and didn’t lose to them after 2005. That’s absolutely insane. After Peyton retired, the dynasty went to 4 straight SBs. 

The only QB to play in 4 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB to win 2 SBs on different franchises with different teammates and different coaches.

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap; speaks to the false narrative that he played on “stacked teams”) and reach a SB. He did it 4 times. 

The only QB in the modern era to take a max contract (eating up the largest %age of his team’s cap) and win a SB. He did it 2 times. 

Accomplished all this in 16 years, and the only hint of ever doing anything wrong came from a since redacted al-jazeera article.

I’m not one to say that Brady’s cheating is why Peyton is the G.O.A.T., because that takes away from what Peyton’s accomplished. Peyton is the G.O.A.T. on merit and merit only.

 

1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

How many times did Manning NOT get to face the Patriots in the playoffs because his #1 or 2 seeded team was beaten in the first or second round?

Nobody is saying Manning wasn't a great QB, he's just not the GOAT.

 Just because I had a few minutes before my tee time, I googled Manning's playoff record. I'll quote the answer verbatim.

Q. What is Peyton Manning's playoff record?

A. Brady (22-8) has the most playoff wins in NFL history. Manning (12-13) has the most playoff losses in NFL history, INCLUDING NINE ONE-AND-DONE POSTSEASONS.

*NOTE* This answer was dated January 16, 2016 which was just prior to Manning and the Broncos playing the Panthers in the Super Bowl, so obviously both Manning and Brady's playoff records improved from that date. This did answer my question though of how many times Manning was one and done in his career in the playoffs.

So it validated for me my feeling that Manning, while a great REGULAR SEASON QB, wasn't the GOAT.

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1. Montana is not the greatest QB of all time.

2. I don't think Mahomes will finish his career as the greatest QB of all time. 

3. With that said, he is extremely good and has an excellent chance, perhaps the best of any recent QB, to be a HOF'er.

4. The variable we cannot yet foresee is durability over time and title winning.  Greatest requires elite play over a long duration, so great teams and great health.  

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1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

How many times did Manning NOT get to face the Patriots in the playoffs because his #1 or 2 seeded team was beaten in the first or second round?

Nobody is saying Manning wasn't a great QB, he's just not the GOAT.

28 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

 

 Just because I had a few minutes before my tee time, I googled Manning's playoff record. I'll quote the answer verbatim.

Q. What is Peyton Manning's playoff record?

A. Brady (22-8) has the most playoff wins in NFL history. Manning (12-13) has the most playoff losses in NFL history, INCLUDING NINE ONE-AND-DONE POSTSEASONS.

*NOTE* This answer was dated January 16, 2016 which was just prior to Manning and the Broncos playing the Panthers in the Super Bowl, so obviously both Manning and Brady's playoff records improved from that date. This did answer my question though of how many times Manning was one and done in his career in the playoffs.

So it validated for me my feeling that Manning, while a great REGULAR SEASON QB, wasn't the GOAT.

Thank you so much for doing this. It further proves mine and @Jetsfan80's points that Peyton was propping up pretty terrible teams which got revealed come playoff time. How do you reconcile that Peyton had 9 one-and-done playoff seasons, whereas the dynasty only has 3, but:

- The defenses behind Peyton averaged 14th in points against over the course of his career. The defenses behind Brady averaged 7th in points against over the course of his career

- Peyton is only .1 AY/A below Brady in career postseason games (full data below per PFR)

image.thumb.png.4d254b854156769be8f3026de43c2cc7.png

By the numbers, looks like Peyton was every bit as good as Brady even in the playoffs, but because he was taking max contracts and because the Colts were a dumpster fire from the owner to the GM to the coaches for a majority of his time there, he didn't have the same benefits Brady had.

Consider that when he went to a team with a real owner and GM and coaches, he re-broke all of the single season records and went to two super bowls and won one...all in a 5 year span in his mid to late 30s. 

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2 hours ago, chirorob said:

Peyton came into the league with Harrison and Marshall Faulk.  Having 2 HOF players around you is nice.

After Faulk they had edgerrin James, who, to me, is borderline HOF.  Then they added Reggie Wayne.

Throw in Dallas Clark and Pierre Garcon (as the #3), he had some people to work with.

The idea that Manning didn't have offensive talent around him is absurd.

Plus he played in a dome which props his stats.

He's an all time great for sure, but all of these guys have knocks if you look for them

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Peyton 3-1 vs the Cheatriots in the AFC Championship game. Even while cheating Brady still was Peyton's bitch in 3 of their 4 AFC Championship games. 

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12 minutes ago, CTM said:

The idea that Manning didn't have offensive talent around him is absurd.

Plus he played in a dome which props his stats.

He's an all time great for sure, but all of these guys have knocks if you look for them

Or are inclined to look for them

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27 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Thank you so much for doing this. It further proves mine and @Jetsfan80's points that Peyton was propping up pretty terrible teams which got revealed come playoff time. How do you reconcile that Peyton had 9 one-and-done playoff seasons, whereas the dynasty only has 3, but:

- The defenses behind Peyton averaged 14th in points against over the course of his career. The defenses behind Brady averaged 7th in points against over the course of his career

- Peyton is only .1 AY/A below Brady in career postseason games (full data below per PFR)

image.thumb.png.4d254b854156769be8f3026de43c2cc7.png

By the numbers, looks like Peyton was every bit as good as Brady even in the playoffs, but because he was taking max contracts and because the Colts were a dumpster fire from the owner to the GM to the coaches for a majority of his time there, he didn't have the same benefits Brady had.

Consider that when he went to a team with a real owner and GM and coaches, he re-broke all of the single season records and went to two super bowls and won one...all in a 5 year span in his mid to late 30s. 

I keep telling you the same thing. Peyton Manning was a great QB.

You think he was the GOAT, that's fine. I'm sure quite a few people agree with you. I don't, and quite a few people agree with me.

These type of conversations are fun, but in the end it all just comes down to opinion.

Mantle, Mays or Snider

Chamberlin or Russell

Gretsky or Lemieux

Brady, Montana, Manning ( heck, some people go Marino)

Sports fans have been having these discussions for years and years. Always have, always will.

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32 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I keep telling you the same thing. Peyton Manning was a great QB.

You think he was the GOAT, that's fine. I'm sure quite a few people agree with you. I don't, and quite a few people agree with me.

These type of conversations are fun, but in the end it all just comes down to opinion.

Mantle, Mays or Snider

Chamberlin or Russell

Gretsky or Lemieux

Brady, Montana, Manning ( heck, some people go Marino)

Sports fans have been having these discussions for years and years. Always have, always will.

I disagree on Brady and Montana, but that’s the fun of it!

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40 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I keep telling you the same thing. Peyton Manning was a great QB.

You think he was the GOAT, that's fine. I'm sure quite a few people agree with you. I don't, and quite a few people agree with me.

These type of conversations are fun, but in the end it all just comes down to opinion.

Mantle, Mays or Snider

Chamberlin or Russell

Gretsky or Lemieux

Brady, Montana, Manning ( heck, some people go Marino)

Sports fans have been having these discussions for years and years. Always have, always will.

dont mess with Gretzky!!

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4 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

dont mess with Gretzky!!

Don't worry. I never will!!!

Although as a Ranger fan, I've got to say, Messier=Messiah

I don't collect sports memorabilia, but one item I cherish is a framed, glass encased photo of Mark and Wayne on the Rangers bench. It was signed for me by both of them.  

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:51 AM, Jetsfan80 said:

1) Why not?

2) Even if you're correct, see my above post.  75 % of what Mahomes is right now for the rest of his career + a couple rings would make him a GOAT candidate.  

Not really true that he has to do it forever.  He didnt do this season what he did in 2018

He didnt lead in any category in 2019.  

Injuries and need can curb what kind of numbers he puts up.

But as with many of these comparisons you have to look past numbers.  Montanas numbers will pale given the changes to the game but still what he accomplished cant be discounted,  

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1 hour ago, CTM said:

The idea that Manning didn't have offensive talent around him is absurd.

Plus he played in a dome which props his stats.

He's an all time great for sure, but all of these guys have knocks if you look for them

Laughable argument coming from the guy who still says Brady is the GOAT.

The Manning case has "knocks" in them.  The Brady case has been closed for a long time.  Verdict:  Not in GOAT consideration.

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Not really true that he has to do it forever.  He didnt do this season what he did in 2018

He didnt lead in any category in 2019.  

Injuries and need can curb what kind of numbers he puts up.

In 1 to 2 years, his cap number is going to skyrocket (depending on how they structure the extension).

He will be the same player, the team will lose 30 million in assets to put around him.  He is still amazing, but he will not have the same caliber around him.

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3 hours ago, chirorob said:

Peyton came into the league with Harrison and Marshall Faulk.  Having 2 HOF players around you is nice.

After Faulk they had edgerrin James, who, to me, is borderline HOF.  Then they added Reggie Wayne.

Throw in Dallas Clark and Pierre Garcon (as the #3), he had some people to work with.

Reggie Wayne was not special.  Nor were Clark and Garcon.  Peyton made them special.  

Harrison and Faulk were special.  No doubt.  So was Edgerrin James.  But he didn't have superstars surrounding him his whole career like some are saying.  His RB when he won his first title was Joseph friggin Addai.  And Marvin Harrison was 34 by then.

Furthermore, his defenses were awful. and he was constantly having to battle the cheating Pats for AFC dominance.  

History will look kinder on Peyton once its clearly revealed for the world to see that not one of Brady's titles were legitimate.  Not one.  

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 The Brady case has been closed for a long time.  Verdict:  Not in GOAT consideration.

:character42:

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3 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

:character42:

When a golfer is caught cheating once, the other golfers who witnessed it happen refuse to play a round with him going forward. Clearly demonstrate you're willing to cheat once and you're likely to do it a lot more.

The Pats get caught egregiously cheating 3x, and are lauded as the greatest dynasty of all-time.  

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Problem with Brady is there is no defense to the claims over what was him and what was the Pats and whatever advantages they had due to cheating.  Real or imagined.

On the surface hes the GOAT.  

Throw in cheating and the fact that we all hate the Pats and what shouldn't be debatable is debatable. 

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

When a golfer is caught cheating once, the other golfers who witnessed it happen refuse to play a round with him going forward. 

The Pats get caught egregiously cheating 3x, and are lauded as the greatest dynasty of all-time.  

Golf is a game of honor, 80. Players police themselves, or at least most of them do.

Other professional sports, not so much. Teams and players are always looking for an edge. The old saying, "it's only cheating if you get caught" applies here. I understand your feelings on this, and if the Pats were the only team I thought cheated, I'd agree with you.

Look at the news in MLB yesterday. The Astros got nailed by Manfred, and what was the first response from their GM? "we were playing defense when we did what we did." He's right. The Red Sox will be next, we know that, but what makes that different then the 2003 juiced up Yankees, or the McGwire Sosa bs?

Getting back to Brady, most fans just don't care about that stuff. He's going down as the GOAT, and will be until the next one comes along.

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1 minute ago, 14 in Green said:

Golf is a game of honor, 80. Players police themselves, or at least most of them do.

Other professional sports, not so much. Teams and players are always looking for an edge. The old saying, "it's only cheating if you get caught" applies here. I understand your feelings on this, and if the Pats were the only team I thought cheated, I'd agree with you.

Look at the news in MLB yesterday. The Astros got nailed by Manfred, and what was the first response from their GM? "we were playing defense when we did what we did." He's right. The Red Sox will be next, we know that, but what makes that different then the 2003 juiced up Yankees, or the McGwire Sosa bs?

 

Unlike the NFL, the MLB punished the Astros severely for their crime.  The GM and Manager were fired as a result. 

Guess who's still around in New England?  Belichick and Ernie Adams, the architects of 20 years of cheating.

Other teams cheat in the NFL, yes.  But not as egregiously and arrogantly as the Pats.  They get warned not to cheat in a certain way, then SpyGate happens.  Then they get caught cheating the same way AGAIN.  That means they had at least 3 strikes against them on the same brand of cheating.  Who else is anywhere close to that category?

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15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Reggie Wayne was not special.  Nor were Clark and Garcon.  Peyton made them special.  

Harrison and Faulk were special.  No doubt.  So was Edgerrin James.  But he didn't have superstars surrounding him his whole career like some are saying.  His RB when he won his first title was Joseph friggin Addai.  And Marvin Harrison was 34 by then.

Furthermore, his defenses were awful. and he was constantly having to battle the cheating Pats for AFC dominance.  

History will look kinder on Peyton once its clearly revealed for the world to see that not one of Brady's titles were legitimate.  Not one.  

I don't dislike Peyton, but he had some people around him

Reggie Wayne had over 1000 catches, and 14000 yards.   That does not suck.   Garcon was a hell of a #3 option to throw to. 

The year they won the SB, the defense caught fire at the end of the season.  Peyton never really had a good Super Bowl game.  Compare his SB games vs. Montana.   Again, it's a great bar argument, that can't really be won.  If I had 1 game I HAD to win, I take Joe.

 

Peyton.JPG

Joe M.JPG

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3 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Reggie Wayne had over 1000 catches, and 14000 yards.   That does not suck.  

Playing with Peyton almost his entire career, yes.

Wayne was a very good WR1.  You have to be when playing with Peyton, because so many routes are based on timing and relationship with the QB.

I never said he "sucked".  But a "special" receiver he was not. 

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4 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Again, it's a great bar argument, that can't really be won.  If I had 1 game I HAD to win, I take Joe.

I'd take Joe too in that situation.  Doesn't take Peyton out of GOAT consideration.

The most important takeaway is Manning >>> Brady.  That's all I care about in this case, really.  

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30 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Laughable argument coming from the guy who still says Brady is the GOAT.

The Manning case has "knocks" in them.  The Brady case has been closed for a long time.  Verdict:  Not in GOAT consideration.

Yes to middle aged virgins everywhere 

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Just now, CTM said:

Yes to middle aged virgins everywhere 

I'm married now so there's a "knock" in that argument too!

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12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Unlike the NFL, the MLB punished the Astros severely for their crime.  The GM and Manager were fired as a result. 

Guess who's still around in New England?  Belichick and Ernie Adams, the architects of 20 years of cheating.

Other teams cheat in the NFL, yes.  But not as egregiously and arrogantly as the Pats.  They get warned not to cheat in a certain way, then SpyGate happens.  Then they get caught cheating the same way AGAIN.  That means they had at least 3 strikes against them on the same brand of cheating.  Who else is anywhere close to that category?

I have no idea, my friend, but if you think one team is a villain amonst 29 heroes, and they just agree to let the Pats get away with anything they want, why bother being a fan?

I'm not arguing your points, you have the moral high ground here, but in the money grubbing world of pro sports, what does that matter?

Sure, the Astros got nailed, so will the Red Sox. But so what? They didn't lose their WS titles, nor the mega millions they made off them.

Just like the players who roid up, sign huge deals, then get hit with a 90 day suspension when they're caught. What do they care? They got paid.

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4 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

How many times did Manning NOT get to face the Patriots in the playoffs because his #1 or 2 seeded team was beaten in the first or second round by the likes of the lowly JETS

Nobody is saying Manning wasn't a great QB, he's just not the GOAT.

fixed

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17 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I have no idea, my friend, but if you think one team is a villain amonst 29 heroes, and they just agree to let the Pats get away with anything they want, why bother being a fan?

Deal with it psychologcially/emotionally however you want, it's pretty clear the league let them get away with a lot in an effort to "protect the shield".

It was well reported that the 31 other owners were pissed at Goodell for not punishing the Pats enough for SpyGate.  Hence why he went heavy on punishment to Brady for Deflategate, which was a far less egregious form of cheating.  

It's also a running joke in league circles about how the Pats cheat.  They expect when they go into Foxboro that their QB headset will stop working at inopportune times, playbooks will disappear, and just generally shady stuff will happen.  

The Pats' home record the last 20 years is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE without cheating.  Impossible.  Like, the chances of the Pats not cheating constantly for decades (particularly during home games) and getting away with it are less than you winning the Powerball twice.  

And yes, the Pats' cheating has had an impact on my fandom.  The Pats, in many ways, very much helped ruin the NFL.  Dealing with their sketchy sh*t in the AFC East for 20 years pisses me off.  The integrity of the league is barren.  Too bad I can't stop rooting for the Jets, mostly because they're tied to my identity since I was a kid, and also because of the community of posters here at JN that I like shooting the sh*t with.  

Again, Brady is Lance Armstrong, without the millions of dollars raised for cancer research.  

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On 9/15/2019 at 4:55 PM, nico002 said:

Was wide open so it was a TD

bad throw though right? Inaccurate deep ball thrower right?

Am I doing it right? 

LITTLE early for that kind of talk.

Like, 10 years too early.

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17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Deal with it psychologcially/emotionally however you want, it's pretty clear the league let them get away with a lot in an effort to "protect the shield".

It was well reported that the 31 other owners were pissed at Goodell for not punishing the Pats enough for SpyGate.  Hence why he went heavy on punishment to Brady for Deflategate, which was a far less egregious form of cheating.  

It's also a running joke in league circles about how the Pats cheat.  They expect when they go into Foxboro that their QB headset will stop working at inopportune times, playbooks will disappear, and just generally shady stuff will happen.  

The Pats' home record the last 20 years is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE without cheating.  Impossible.  Like, the chances of the Pats not cheating constantly for decades (particularly during home games) and getting away with it are less than you winning the Powerball twice.  

I'm reading this, and I think you believe everything you've said 100%.

That brings us back full circle to the first question I asked you, but you never answered...

If you believe that the NFL office, and all the other owners, GMs and HCs are aware of this, yet for whatever reason have allowed Kraft, Belichek and the Patriots to continue to pummel them for 20 years without taking them down once and for all, "How can you have stayed a fan throughout those 20 long years?"

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12 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I'm reading this, and I think you believe everything you've said 100%.

That brings us back full circle to the first question I asked you, but you never answered...

If you believe that the NFL office, and all the other owners, GMs and HCs are aware of this, yet for whatever reason have allowed Kraft, Belichek and the Patriots to continue to pummel them for 20 years without taking them down once and for all, "How can you have stayed a fan throughout those 20 long years?"

 

I realized prior to your response that I hadn't responded to your question, and edited my response a few minutes ago.  Read it again.  The added part, for your convenience:

 

Quote

And yes, the Pats' cheating has had an impact on my fandom.  The Pats, in many ways, very much helped ruin the NFL.  Dealing with their sketchy sh*t in the AFC East for 20 years pisses me off.  The integrity of the league is barren.  Too bad I can't stop rooting for the Jets, mostly because they're tied to my identity since I was a kid, and also because of the community of posters here at JN that I like shooting the sh*t with.  

 

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