Is bad coaching or player injuries the bigger reason Jets are losing? Do you agree with Bob Wischusen?

[sec101row23]

5 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

I mean look, there are issues at depth, at the playmaker positions, at CB... If people want to throw Gase under the bus I get that too.

But for me it all filters down to the OL. I think a lot of the things that are killing the Jets (and us as fans) stem from a horrendous line. We have no time to let a play develop, we have QBs who are running scared on every play, there are no holes opening for Bell, opponents are rushing 3 or 4 and getting pressure, allowing them to sit 7 or 8 guys in coverage...

Robby said it in his post game. "It all starts upfront"... And he's right. Everything trickles down from there.

I don't think the Jets offense is this bad... With a half-way decent line I think we'd be in most of these games. But the talent just isn't there. They look both over-matched and lost out there. It's a bad combination. 

Agreed.  When you are giving up sacks against a 3 man rush, there isn’t much you can do.  

[Charlie Brown]

52 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

And not to point out the obvious, but we have a portion of the board now believing its time to move on from Joe Douglas because his kicker he picked up off the side of the road with a free sign hanging around his neck missed a field goal that would have made us 1-2.

Can't make this stuff up.

This much is true.....

And yet we still have posters out here DEFENDING Mac and some these same folk are saying JD has done a poor job when he hasn't been here long enough for the paint to dry in his office yet!

Jet fandom...Catch the Magic!!  

[fullblast]

40 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Really? When Mosley went out in the Buffalo game that defense instantly tanked. 

Every team deals with injuries, it's football. The defense generally hasn't been the problem so far this year and Cashman has done a respectable job filling in for Mosley. For crying out loud, they've outscored the offense so far this year! The biggest issue with this team is the offense's inability to sustain drives due to terrible OL play.

[freestater]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

"Caffeine Mike" - LMAO!

Your joke gets 5 cups of coffee out of 5.

Lol. There should be an icon for this right next to the buttfumble one. ?

[Philc1]

It’s both

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, fullblast said:

Every team deals with injuries, it's football. The defense generally hasn't been the problem so far this year and Cashman has done a respectable job filling in for Mosley. For crying out loud, they've outscored the offense so far this year! The biggest issue with this team is the offense's inability to sustain drives due to terrible OL play.

defense has some surprising young talent and they're playing pretty good football even w/o mosley and Q.  the offense is bereft of talent besides darnold, crowder, bell and herndon.

[MaxAF]

9 hours ago, fusionCA said:

Cleveland played tonight without the entire secondary 

all the starting corners and safeties were injured.

they signed players off the street to play( including Justin Burris) and yer were able to put a decent showing including an INT that almost gave them the win

coaching , it matters 

I watched that game and was thinking the same thing

[Bugg]

9 minutes ago, MaxAF said:

I watched that game and was thinking the same thing

Takeway should be rather than signing Tru Johnson or drafting safeties Jets should have so invested in the OL. Alas, there's a thread advocating for trading for Jags CB Jalen Ramsey. DBs are filler, overhead, fungible. Guy you sign off the street or pick in the 5th to 7th round is little worse than the high end. This is not true of OL guys; unless you like seeing your QB crushed again after your LT gets bullrushed. Can we drug test some posters? 

[Snell41]

Every team deals with injuries, it's football. The defense generally hasn't been the problem so far this year and Cashman has done a respectable job filling in for Mosley. For crying out loud, they've outscored the offense so far this year! The biggest issue with this team is the offense's inability to sustain drives due to terrible OL play.

We weren’t a great team to begin with. At full strength we’re at best a .500 team. We went into the season with Enunwa and Anderson as our wideouts. Neither are valid #1’s, both are even questionably good enough to settle for them being a quality #2. Our OL is a sieve. A complete sieve. Defenses are pinning their ears and blowing through our OL with 8/9 in the box. Bell is trying to run through a brick wall and Falk has guys in his face immediately. Fact is Falk isn’t good enough to be a quality starter even if he has time to process the field. Our first 3 games have shown us exactly what the preseason proved, we have the worst depth in the league. It’s atrocious. I can’t tell you Gase is a good coach, but it’s ridiculous to condemn him with what he is fielding.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[The Crusher]

26 minutes ago, fullblast said:

Every team deals with injuries, it's football. The defense generally hasn't been the problem so far this year and Cashman has done a respectable job filling in for Mosley. For crying out loud, they've outscored the offense so far this year! The biggest issue with this team is the offense's inability to sustain drives due to terrible OL play.

Did you watch The Buffalo game. My point was that defense was vastly different after Mosley went out. Yes, Cashman is doing a nice job but losing Mosley was huge. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

 

We weren’t a great team to begin with. At full strength we’re at best a .500 team. We went into the season with Enunwa and Anderson as our wideouts. Neither are valid #1’s, both are even questionably good enough to settle for them being a quality #2. Our OL is a sieve. A complete sieve. Defenses are pinning their ears and blowing through our OL with 8/9 in the box. Bell is trying to run through a brick wall and Falk has guys in his face immediately. Fact is Falk isn’t good enough to be a quality starter even if he has time to process the field. Our first 3 games have shown us exactly what the preseason proved, we have the worst depth in the league. It’s atrocious. I can’t tell you Gase is a good coach, but it’s ridiculous to condemn him with what he is fielding.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

hard to blame gase, he's working with nothing and trying to not get another qb killed.  forget about having the worst depth.  they have the worst starters on offense.

[fullblast]

12 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Did you watch The Buffalo game. My point was that defense was vastly different after Mosley went out. Yes, Cashman is doing a nice job but losing Mosley was huge. 

Yeah I agree, I argued the same point after the game. The D fell apart after he left, mostly due to communication issues. I just don't think this team would be any good even with him in the lineup. There are too many other problems. It's great that we have Bell, but if the OL can't block it doesn't really matter who the RB is. It will be great to get Herndon back, but if the QB doesn't have time to throw, how do they get the ball to him? Tru and Darryl Roberts will continue to be liabilities on the outside, we still don't have a reliable pass rusher, our receivers can't get separation, etc. The team will get healthy but I don't expect that to result in many wins. We lack talent in too many key areas.

[SammySweetheart]

Anyone remember when Matt Moore came in against the Jets in 2016 and went 12 of 18 for 236 a TD and beat the Jets? Or the time that Matt Moore started his first game in 2017 and went 13-21 for 188 and a TD and beat the Jets? Gase had his backup QB in but still was able to beat the Jets.  Not sure if that falls more on Bowles being terrible or that Gase has just forgotten how to coach and move the ball downfield.  I would argue that Siemian is just as good if not better than Matt Moore and he had negative passing yards with Gase before he got hurt vs the Browns.

[Savage69]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Please, Enunwa is one of the most overrated jet players of the last 5 years.

This team is healthy enough to not stink out he joint.

Good coaches do things to at least look good losing.

The offense looks worse than the gailey, morton and bates offenses all of those with terrible o talent as well.

This guy is supposed to be a good offensive coach.  Is he yet another one of these guys that will be good if you are 100% healthy and have he team stocked with pro bowlers?

When Brady went down in the 1st game of 2008 how did the 1-15 Fins with the addition of Chad win the East?? Was first year HC Sparano that good?? The Pats were in the Bowl the year before..

[Gibby]

It’s bad right now- real bad! I will reserve judgement until we’re whole. 

I hate what I am seeing as much as all of you- the talk of firing Case now is ridiculous. Yes I know he was sold to us as an “offense guy” and there are definitely things that it’s certainly fair to question when we see the poop we are seeing on the field so far. However we need to see what happens the rest of this year at the very least before we can form an honest opinion.

To be perfectly honest, I frankly have my doubts even if Sam does in fact come back after the bye as some are speculating that we see a complete 180. 

This roster has a ton more of warts. My hope is they will at the very least be competitive and watchable real soon.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm not sure - but I'm not being paid millions of dollars to do it.   That's the job -

If he can't keep his team motivated to play - even when things are bad - then he shouldn't be a HC in NFL.  Find some other work.

Disagree.  The job is to get 11 athletes to all choreograph together on not just one, but many different play calls.  Motivation is intrinsic, if anything the coach and GM's job is to find those that aren't motivated and not give them a roster spot.  Speeches, yelling, etc. don't actually work, despite what happens in movies.

[CTM]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Yes but isn't 3 losses more than the season before a "big drop off"?  

Yes of course. But 1) they would've went 14-2 or better and 2) it's a biggger drop off to go from #1 seed to no playoffs than from #1 seed to #1 seed

[jetstream23]

3 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Having key players out is certainly contributing to the problem but it's not like Gase has exactly done anything to earn our trust yet either. 

Can we at least agree on that?

Btw, I'm not criticizing him but I am saying that the jury is still out.  I feel like many people are giving Gase credit for being a good HC ("if he had his players back we'd be winning games!") when he's done nothing to earn it.

Absolutely agree with that.

[rex-n-effect]

The problem is both. Gase seems to keep running the exact same offensive scheme despite not having the players to execute it well so it is exposing the poor quality of OL performance. Gas wouldn't have to adjust as much if the roster was better but it's also his job to adjust the playbook to maximize the roster. His system is built to work with a playoff-bound team and a HOF QB who can do all the adjustments at the LOS and did not have the strength to throw bombs all day. Peyton isn't our QB and this roster is not playoff quality. It was just like Sexy Rexy and his defense. Killed teams when he had elite talent everywhere but fell apart when he didn't and needed to adjust to the roster.

[heymangold]

The panthers just won a game with an UDFA at QB. Just sayin.

[JetsLife]

12 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I almost never agree with Bob because he can be an insufferable homer, but there's nothing I can disagree with here.

This will be the fifth time I've asked this forum to give me the name of a coach that can work with the circumstances and roster blows that Gase has had to deal with, while also playing 2 of the 3 best defenses in the league and a 3rd defense that is, also, very good.  I haven't gotten a single name.

If we still look this bad against the softer part of our schedule, with Sam, Mosely, Quinnen, and DT healthy, then we can have a further discussion on where the team goes next at HC.  Until then, it's pointless because no one can succeed under these conditions.

Belichick, Andy Reid, McVay, Payton, Doug Pederson, Arians, others I'm not thinking of.

If you've asked your question 5 times they probably stretch back to Week 2 and maybe week 1. So: I'd bet my house these coaches would have had the Jets offense produce much more with Darnold & Siemian at QB. Because that's the major pivotal position among any slew of injuries - QB.

Otherwise we've all seen teams like the Pats and others absolutely decimated by injury yet still put up enough offense to attain 11-5 and 12-4 type seasons. 

The fact is the Jets offense was historically inept at home through almost 6 quarters of Darnold and Siemian. During that period, a competent head coach-OC has his o-line playing much better as a unit, utilizes the weapon that is arguably the best all-around RB to the advantage of the entire offense, and bottom line finds ways to put up some points.   

Good, competent coaches get their teams to perform in spite of "circumstances." With bad, incompetent coaches there's always excuses until there aren't anymore. 

Now, I will grant basically no offense succeeds over time with a 3rd-string QB. So Gase and his putrid offense gets a partial pass the past 6 quarters with Falk at the helm. But as you say once Darnold returns, the bullseye is ever more on Gase's back.

In football and life, we all know underachievers who don't produce with an always ready excuse. Whereas the winners simply win no matter what circumstances they're faced with.

[JetsLife]

12 hours ago, Mogglez said:

True, but the Buffalo defense has shown through three games that they are better than last year, which is pretty damn impressive. We, also, needed our kicker to make one of the missed kicks and we're not even discussing week one as a loss.

Conjecture. If the kicker makes the extra point it's a tie score. Even if he makes all his kicks the Jets are up 3 points - possible Buffalo still surmounts that deficit.

[jetsyrup]

I didn't really know where to post this, but it certainly seems relevant to the Gase discussion:

https://operations.nfl.com/stats-central/stats-articles/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1. There's nobody in charge, and if anybody is in charge, nobody knows who it is.

2. Finding a franchise quarterback is not adequately prioritized.

3. There has never been an honest effort to build via the draft.

Same as every year.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, T0mShane said:

No it’s the need for better plays 

Why, oh why, do we still call the bad ones?

[Sperm Edwards]

On 9/23/2019 at 12:15 AM, jetstream23 said:

The Jets aren't built to sustain injuries to starters.  Very little depth.

 

They had depth at ILB and Gase traded it away for a 6th rounder he can't use until next year.

I never liked the Lee pick, and never liked him as a player, and for all the "Gase is setting the tone" knob-slobbering at the time, that was still an empty-headed move to cut a healthy player he hadn't yet coached 1 second on the practice field.

Fast forward to preseason:

#1 he couldn't trade Lee to a more needy team after injuries set in (nor let him move back into the starter's role if it was the Jets' own ILB injury) 

#2 there's every likelihood starter Avery W wouldn't have been on the field to get injured that game, since Lee already had experience running the defense (including the prior season). Perhaps if Avery W is still on the field then Mosely doesn't get injured week 1 as he might have been in a different position (unlikely everything - every play to that point, including the game situation at the time of the injury - would have unfolded exactly as it did with a different starter on defense). 

It looks like Gase was in over his head, as thankful as I am for his role in getting Maccagnan fired.

It also looks like almost every HC in the game would be coaching a losing team (possibly an 0-3 team) with this many injuries. People take for granted that the 16-0 lead they got out to would have happened just that same way with any other coach, so he gets blame for the 17 unanswered Bills points and no credit for the first 16 unanswered Jets points (never mind missed FGs). People did this with Bowles as well, where the starting point of comparison always effectively began with, "Well it can be taken for granted that every game they won with Bowles as HC would have also been a win with any other HC, and we can start counting the additional wins from there." It's nonsense.

I'm not optimistic about Gase, who seems like an immature douchebag who belongs as an offensive assistant (maybe an OC, if a competent HC was there to overrule his mishaps), not as a HC. Even still, I'll give him time to coach some games with a healthier roster than this one before my pitchfork comes out. He's not instilling any confidence in fans, but there's little that would with this starting lineup. 

[Savage69]

8 hours ago, JiF said:

It's strange how Jets fans always feel this need to point the finger at one person or put the blame one thing or event.  

News flash; it's both coaching and injuries that are preventing the Jets from winning Football games. 

The injuries are killings us but the coaching is to inept to do anything about it.  Every team deal with injuries, many teams are playing with their back up QB, but there is 1 team in the NFL that has 1 TD over 3 games of Football. 

The team sucks, the injuries are bad but the coaching sucks too!

It's the perfect storm of sh*t. 

In 1999 we were one of the Bowl favorites but Vinny went down in game 1. We went 1-6 before the Tuna took out former second pick in the 1st round Rick Mirer and gave Lucas a chance.. We didn't have injuries we just lost Vinny.. So it was fair to say we had bad coaching until Ray Lucas went in..

[long suffering jets fan]

17 hours ago, Mogglez said:

And sometimes you hit on backup QBs.  Minshew has proven, through three games, that he belongs.

Kyle Allen, going into today, had a career rating of 113.1 with two pretty damn good games under his belt.  Then, for his 3rd game, he gets the Cardinals, who are, quite literally, the polar opposite of  the defending Super Bowl champs

Most of the times, you get Luke Falk.  A back up that you never imagined would be starting but knows the system in case of emergency (like right now).

Falk started over Minshew at Washington State I think.

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

In 1999 we were one of the Bowl favorites but Vinny went down in game 1. We went 1-6 before the Tuna took out former second pick in the 1st round Rick Mirer and gave Lucas a chance.. We didn't have injuries we just lost Vinny.. So it was fair to say we had bad coaching until Ray Lucas went in..

This isnt about wins and losses.  It's about being able to execute a single play on offense.  The offense has scored 1 TD in 12 quarters of play.  That is pathetic.  If I recall correctly, the team didnt suddenly look completely incompetent in 99.  They scored points in a few of those games and were competitive in a few games..  Not the mess we've witnessed over the past few weeks.  This is abysmal. 

[TNJet]

20 hours ago, Guilhermezmc said:

This is the worst offense i have seen since i started following the Jets 

But but Gase is an offensive genius!

[TNJet]

I'll never blame players on offense when its 3rd and 24 and Gase calls a run up the middle with the worst oline in football. There's no logic behind that except rolling over Bowles style. No team can convert that, not even the Patriots its a lose lose play call. Absolutely absurd. And totally on the Coach.