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KC & Baltimore - How It's Done


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On 9/24/2019 at 10:52 AM, JetsLife said:

Watched the full highlights from Sunday. Two young, gifted QBs going at it. Too bad you can't be a fan of more than one team; of course that's sacrilege.

But one can appreciate watching teams properly utilize their gifted young QBs. Tailoring game plans to their skill sets. Imaginative play calling, looking to push the ball down field, keeping the opposing defense off balance, virtually zero throwaway wasted play calls. And so on. As the Pats & other cutting-edge offenses run by competent modern-day OCs do virtually every week. Other than the Pats truly a joy to watch, if a bit disheartening as a Jets fan.

 

Both teams:

  • invest in the OL
  • understand that speed wins, and draft for it
  • have defenses that prioritize getting turnovers, more than stops
  • have defenses that can usually get off the field on 3rd down
  • spend money on FAs whose best seasons are likely still to come
  • have HCs that own the whole operation, have done so through multiple coordinator and QB changes, and still find success

Summary: we have nothing in common with these teams.

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10 hours ago, rammagen said:

he jhad the the starting offensive line since they signed kalil the decision to sit him was on the Gase and the staff. they should have played them earlier

The guy came out of retirement so I'm not sure that the ceiling is much higher than the current level of play.

But, to be clear, the statement was that he had the team since the beginning of the offseason and, in this case, that statement simply isn't true. And, again, it's Year One, Game 4. I'm not a big fan of his but even I would have to say the sample size is very small so far.

That said, the sample size for the OL is about a decade of suck!!

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On 9/24/2019 at 3:25 PM, talisaynon said:

Organizations matter. Top to bottom. Competent org structure and accountability with a clear hierarchy of who is reporting to whom. A group of people in the organization focused on analytics with a highly developed and elite scouting team. 

Jets don't have any of that. This org is the Johnson's plaything.

The Jets Real Problem is this @sshole

9E75EDCE-7068-4EF2-ADB6-8E904023FFE1.thumb.jpeg.57efaf7fa6f4ad4c20763444679bbb2b.jpeg

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13 hours ago, phill1c said:

The guy came out of retirement so I'm not sure that the ceiling is much higher than the current level of play.

But, to be clear, the statement was that he had the team since the beginning of the offseason and, in this case, that statement simply isn't true. And, again, it's Year One, Game 4. I'm not a big fan of his but even I would have to say the sample size is very small so far.

That said, the sample size for the OL is about a decade of suck!!

he had the oline since the beginning of training camp why did he not play together sooner as a unit. most of the rest of the group he had all off season

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6 hours ago, rammagen said:

he had the oline since the beginning of training camp why did he not play together sooner as a unit. most of the rest of the group he had all off season

The starting center came out of retirement and was not able to play until the last preseason game, so that's not "since the beginning of training camp" that he has had them. He's had MOST of them. And they did practice and play together, better than they are now, that's for sure.

But the MAIN issue is that these guys are scrubs individually and collectively. Nothing has changed in the middle of the OL for the last three years: the center position sucks. The OG position sucks. The only difference is that the LT and RT now suck too.

The Jets are bottom feeders on the OL. And they play like it.

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6 hours ago, phill1c said:

The starting center came out of retirement and was not able to play until the last preseason game, so that's not "since the beginning of training camp" that he has had them. He's had MOST of them. And they did practice and play together, better than they are now, that's for sure.

But the MAIN issue is that these guys are scrubs individually and collectively. Nothing has changed in the middle of the OL for the last three years: the center position sucks. The OG position sucks. The only difference is that the LT and RT now suck too.

The Jets are bottom feeders on the OL. And they play like it.

It’s not going to get any better Douglas so far looks like a clown 

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On 9/24/2019 at 5:28 PM, JiF said:

Balt. brought in RG3 in clean up duty and he went 6/6 with 1 TD and they have 1 WR on the team with more than 6 receptions and he's a rookie.

Coaching matters. 

 

I was hoping last season that Baltimore was stupid enough to let Harbaugh walk and the Jets would have a shot at him.

The Jets csn never have nice things. 

 

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Woody Johnson is not the problem. The happy fappy homer fans are the problem. There is a not small number of people who spent five months on some everyting gonna be alright bullsh*t and now faced with an 0-3 start are actually patting themselves on the back for it. Stop wanting stupid things and they'll stop doing stupid things and until then we all get the product SAR wants.

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19 hours ago, phill1c said:

The starting center came out of retirement and was not able to play until the last preseason game, so that's not "since the beginning of training camp" that he has had them. He's had MOST of them. And they did practice and play together, better than they are now, that's for sure.

But the MAIN issue is that these guys are scrubs individually and collectively. Nothing has changed in the middle of the OL for the last three years: the center position sucks. The OG position sucks. The only difference is that the LT and RT now suck too.

The Jets are bottom feeders on the OL. And they play like it.

they sat Kalil that is not ready to play that was a choice not an issue. they felt he wasn't ready they should have got him more game time. 

This line was better last yr and this was supposed to be an upgrade they are worse now, that should be the biggest question

https://www.sny.tv/jets/news/jets-ryan-kalil-to-sit-vs-saints/310263156

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On 9/24/2019 at 11:47 AM, BornJetsFan1983 said:

I have never agreed with anyone more so than you right now.

Fire Gase now. First time in years the jets actually get some off talent and we hire a guy who refuses to call plays that can actually work.

What offensive talent besides bell and crowder?

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On 9/24/2019 at 10:58 AM, shawn306 said:

Just think you have to give it time. What you saw from Darnold late in the season gives you hope. Right now with a very bad OL and QB down with Mono it is kind of hard to generate any kind of an imaginative offense.

Let's not go out and start making Jackson to be this great QB just yet. While I like what the Ravens have done on offense to push what he does well righrt now, his two good games were against Miami and Arizona. His game against the Chiefs his completion percentage went down to like 50 percent.

You hope that when Darnold gets healthy and they can get the OL in some kind of order that we will start the see the Darnold we saw towards the end of last season.

 

He will get rapped eventually. The league needs successful Qb's though.

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On 9/25/2019 at 7:54 PM, Integrity28 said:

Both teams:

  • invest in the OL
  • understand that speed wins, and draft for it
  • have defenses that prioritize getting turnovers, more than stops
  • have defenses that can usually get off the field on 3rd down
  • spend money on FAs whose best seasons are likely still to come
  • have HCs that own the whole operation, have done so through multiple coordinator and QB changes, and still find success

Summary: we have nothing in common with these teams.

Interesting Take

  • Both KC and Baltimore let pro-bowl centers walk in free agency
  • Baltimore let Mosley - a free agent with his best seasons to come, walk and actually come to the team you are criticizing
  • The KC defense is terrible and they actually traded FOR a Jet player that the whole board hated
  • The Jets have 7 takeaways this year while Balt has 3 and KC has 4

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of your point.

The reason those teams are doing better then the jets is 

1.  Coaching - Harbough and Reid are infinitely better then anyone who has coached here in decades

2. Mahomes - KC landed a true generational QB

Thats why those teams are winning and we aren't.

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On 9/24/2019 at 10:52 AM, JetsLife said:

Watched the full highlights from Sunday. Two young, gifted QBs going at it. Too bad you can't be a fan of more than one team; of course that's sacrilege.

But one can appreciate watching teams properly utilize their gifted young QBs. Tailoring game plans to their skill sets. Imaginative play calling, looking to push the ball down field, keeping the opposing defense off balance, virtually zero throwaway wasted play calls. And so on. As the Pats & other cutting-edge offenses run by competent modern-day OCs do virtually every week. Other than the Pats truly a joy to watch, if a bit disheartening as a Jets fan.

 

Because when I think young and gifted QBs running an offense tailored to their skill set Falk comes to mind.  

Seriously?  We're now comparing the KC O lineup to the Jets, Mahomes to Falk? 

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12 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Interesting Take

  • Both KC and Baltimore let pro-bowl centers walk in free agency
  • Baltimore let Mosley - a free agent with his best seasons to come, walk and actually come to the team you are criticizing
  • The KC defense is terrible and they actually traded FOR a Jet player that the whole board hated
  • The Jets have 7 takeaways this year while Balt has 3 and KC has 4

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of your point.

The reason those teams are doing better then the jets is 

1.  Coaching - Harbough and Reid are infinitely better then anyone who has coached here in decades

2. Mahomes - KC landed a true generational QB

Thats why those teams are winning and we aren't.

So, what you’re saying is that 4-5 negative moves over-shadow the comprehensive bodies of work that I was referring to. Got it. Always good to build arguments around the anomalies.

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19 hours ago, rammagen said:

they sat Kalil that is not ready to play that was a choice not an issue. they felt he wasn't ready they should have got him more game time. 

This line was better last yr and this was supposed to be an upgrade they are worse now, that should be the biggest question

https://www.sny.tv/jets/news/jets-ryan-kalil-to-sit-vs-saints/310263156

Khalil came out of retirement, needed to get into shape having not one day of OTAs or camp.  Sitting at home and working out to get back to your playing weight doesn't say walk right in and start playing preseasons games.  No one sat him when he should have been playing.

Shell was coming off of knee surgery and rehabbing slowly.

KO was injured and missed the preseason.

Winters was hurt and missed the preseason.  

Osemele was hurt and couldn't play.

Not saying how much better the OL would be if the had the chance to develop as a unit, which every OL has to do.  But if your going to moan and groan about Gase and what he didn't do, get the facts straight, it wasn't a choice to keep them from playing together, it was a necessity 

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5 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

So, what you’re saying is that 4-5 negative moves over-shadow the comprehensive bodies of work that I was referring to. Got it. Always good to build arguments around the anomalies.

What Free Agents has Baltimore signed who have their best years ahead of them?

They not only let Mosley go, but also Zadarius  Smith - another ascending young player.

As for KC, were Andrew Wiley and Austin Reiter high draft picks, where KC invested in their OLine?

My points aren't anomalies and the sad truth is that Baltimore has a very similar philosophy to what Mac had - the difference is their mid round Oline pick turned out to be a better player then Shell and their mid round OLBs are all starters who can rush the passer as opposed to Mac's OLB picks who are out of the league.

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13 minutes ago, BCJet said:

What Free Agents has Baltimore signed who have their best years ahead of them?

They not only let Mosley go, but also Zadarius  Smith - another ascending young player.

As for KC, were Andrew Wiley and Austin Reiter high draft picks, where KC invested in their OLine?

My points aren't anomalies and the sad truth is that Baltimore has a very similar philosophy to what Mac had - the difference is their mid round Oline pick turned out to be a better player then Shell and their mid round OLBs are all starters who can rush the passer as opposed to Mac's OLB picks who are out of the league.

They’ve had one of the best rosters in football for l0+ years or whatever. The Jets one of the worst. I don’t even get the point of this being a debate. What are you even talking about?

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On 9/27/2019 at 1:56 PM, rammagen said:

This line was better last yr and this was supposed to be an upgrade they are worse now, that should be the biggest question

Was it?! I remember the same inability to pass protect and to generate any push in the running game. What Jets season did you watch?

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17 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

They’ve had one of the best rosters in football for l0+ years or whatever. The Jets one of the worst. I don’t even get the point of this being a debate. What are you even talking about?

You said Baltimore "spends money on free agents whose best seasons are yet to come" and I was curious who you meant.

Then you referenced the Baltimore and KC offensive lines, as areas where those organizations invested heavily and thats just not the case.

These organizations, both have a better roster, front office and coaching staff then the Jets, I really dont think thats a question.  

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On 9/28/2019 at 7:48 PM, phill1c said:

Was it?! I remember the same inability to pass protect and to generate any push in the running game. What Jets season did you watch?

yes it was last yr they graded out somewhere in the late teens low 20s believe it or not by pff  this yr I thihnk we are 29 or 30. I dont get how you improve talent supposedly and get worse

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On 10/1/2019 at 2:15 PM, rammagen said:

yes it was last yr they graded out somewhere in the late teens low 20s believe it or not by pff  this yr I thihnk we are 29 or 30. I dont get how you improve talent supposedly and get worse

Kalil isn't much of an improvement. Osellem is barely an improvement. Beachum a year later is not an improvement. Winters as a starter is not an improvement. Shell at RT is not an improvement.

You gained one player who is a physical improvement. And you start two--Kalil and Winters--who are not even playing as physical as they have in the past.

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On 9/28/2019 at 1:32 PM, BornJetsFan1983 said:

You think other teams don't have bad lines? The point is. We don't have any semblance of a NFL off

Other teams are winning with backup QBs and mediocre O-lines

 

Gase is a debacle.  After we go 0-7 his defenders will be very quiet

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Just now, Philc1 said:

Other teams are winning with backup QBs and mediocre O-lines

 

Gase is a debacle.  After we go 0-7 his defenders will be very quiet

But we have to get to 7 losses first. You're acting like we're already 0-7.

And our OL would have to improve at two positions to be considered mediocre. Our OL is horrible. You're just used to seeing it year after year and think it's mediocre. It sucks!! and has sucked since 2010.

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On 10/2/2019 at 10:39 PM, phill1c said:

Kalil isn't much of an improvement. Osellem is barely an improvement. Beachum a year later is not an improvement. Winters as a starter is not an improvement. Shell at RT is not an improvement.

You gained one player who is a physical improvement. And you start two--Kalil and Winters--who are not even playing as physical as they have in the past.

Phill this is where i disagree kalil is a big step from our starting center last yr who could not hike the ball. Harrision is acareer back up he is what he is. Osellem is a upgrade and half over Carpenter. This to me makes it look like our scheme some players do not adjust well to different schemes Carpenter is a prime example the guy is not a zone blocker. so instead of try to adjust schemes and assignments we keep rolling the same oline scheme and hopes something sticks.

That is bad coaching

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On 10/2/2019 at 10:44 PM, phill1c said:

But we have to get to 7 losses first. You're acting like we're already 0-7.

And our OL would have to improve at two positions to be considered mediocre. Our OL is horrible. You're just used to seeing it year after year and think it's mediocre. It sucks!! and has sucked since 2010.

do you think we beat dallas and the eagles in the next two weeks? if the answer is no then blame needs to placed on the coach.  I agree everything starts with blocking but when you coach does nothing to help the line adjust  then the coach sucks

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On 9/24/2019 at 1:27 PM, Embrace the Suck said:

Other teams have young talented players to step up. That relies on something called drafting, maybe you heard of it. It works even better when teams do a good job drafting in most of the rounds more years than not. Has Gase been in charge of the draft the past decade? Which by the way isn't an excuse it's a simple fact, disguised as a rhetorical question, which you should be able to understand. Gase may end up sucking, but stop acting like he assembled this team over the past few years.  What you're seeing now is the culmination of more than a decade of crap drafts and no plan other than surviving another year in the front office.

Eh, its not ALL about the draft. Most of those BAD draft picks are gone anyway. FAs have been picked up, including veteran depth guys. The Jets had plenty of money to bring in players that could contribute- and did so. If you are trying to tell me that the roster is so devoid of talent on offense that they can't generate a few TDs that's nonsense. I get it., Darnold is out and the offense is struggling. The Jets are dealing with injuries. But cmon man, I'm asking for a few good drives, a few TDs. I'm not blind. I see the play calls. A LOT of this is on Gase and when Darnold comes back he better turn it around or they will continue to lose and he will get canned.  

Even the O-line. As a coach, there are ways you can move the pocket and create protection for your QB. He did very little of that when both Darnold (vs the Bills) and Falk were getting killed sitting in the pocket. That's on the coach not being ale to adjust. How about pulling some of these guys who are underperforming? I get that people say- well how do you know the backups will be any better. well, because the backups looked pretty darn good in pre-season- they looked like a functional unit that communicated well and sometimes its more about the statement that anything else- or trying something different. Edoga looked great and hasn't gotten any playing time, Compton and Lewis are both vets and both looked good- neither has gotten a real chance to play. What about Harrison?? If anyone looked in over his head- or I should say over the hill- its been Khalil, and Harrison, who worked his butt off all offseason to EARN the starting job at C all of a sudden lost it when JD went out and sign Khalil off the couch. Gase plugs him in when he was clearly not ready- now its week 5 and the guy is playing terribly and still starting??? Its absurd. THAT is on Gase.  

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On 10/2/2019 at 7:39 PM, phill1c said:

Kalil isn't much of an improvement. Osellem is barely an improvement. Beachum a year later is not an improvement. Winters as a starter is not an improvement. Shell at RT is not an improvement.

You gained one player who is a physical improvement. And you start two--Kalil and Winters--who are not even playing as physical as they have in the past.

 

22 hours ago, rammagen said:

Phill this is where i disagree kalil is a big step from our starting center last yr who could not hike the ball. Harrision is acareer back up he is what he is. Osellem is a upgrade and half over Carpenter. This to me makes it look like our scheme some players do not adjust well to different schemes Carpenter is a prime example the guy is not a zone blocker. so instead of try to adjust schemes and assignments we keep rolling the same oline scheme and hopes something sticks.

That is bad coaching

Osemele is def an upgrade. Even though its clear he has not gotten back to his Pro Bowl form as some were hoping, he has not been as bad as a lot of Jet fans make him out to be. The problem with him has been injuries, once again. But he has EASILY been an upgrade. Beachem has not been as bad as people make him out to be. He has been pretty much the same as last year- struggles against top competition, solid against mediocre talent. Kalil looks like hes done and was just lured out of retirement by the big contract offer from JD. Harrison actually should be the starter. He looked like he improved- got in better shape, looked sharper in pre-season than we saw him last year. He is a better version of himself and could actually be a decent starting Center in the NFL if given the chance. Winters and Shell both have been disappointing which is why one or both of Compton, Edoga and Lewis should be starting instead of them.

Either way, we have the players to have a decent line to protect the QB and generate SOME offense. A LOT of the blame has to go on the coaching.  

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On 10/2/2019 at 10:44 PM, phill1c said:

But we have to get to 7 losses first. You're acting like we're already 0-7.

And our OL would have to improve at two positions to be considered mediocre. Our OL is horrible. You're just used to seeing it year after year and think it's mediocre. It sucks!! and has sucked since 2010.

0-7 is inevitable and what dumb racist comment will you make today to get me in trouble with the mods?

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