Rex: Baker Mayfield “overrated as hell”

[greenwichjetfan]

The Browns had the 7th highest SB odds going into the season after acquiring top tier talent on offense and having a strong D including a DPOY candidate (pre-helmet assault). They’re currently 6-8, and as of 12/10 on FO, Baker is 25th in the league in both DVOA and DYAR while having more 3-outs and TOs per drive than TDs and FGs per drive. He’s also the 29th ranked QB by ANY/A on PFR.

[SummerofSam14]

56 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Allen is in a different stratosphere with regard to future potential compared to Sanchez.

The very first thing I thought and later told a friend, from Sanchez’ very first start was “he looks kind of small out there.  Not that crazy about his arm”.

I think it’s more about the fact that the Bills beat the Steelers with Allen completing 13 passes. 

 

[Icer]

Browns would be alot better with Allen out there, maybe even Darnold. Baker stinking up the joint

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

48 minutes ago, SummerofSam14 said:

I think it’s more about the fact that the Bills beat the Steelers with Allen completing 13 passes. 

 

Regardless of his stats tonight, Allen is dangerous from anywhere on the field.  Sanchez never was.  Will that translate into greatness?  Who knows.  I feel the same about Darnold.  Allen is in a much much better situation than Darnold is right now...from coaching to talent..A to Z.

[Villain The Foe]

6 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The Browns had the 7th highest SB odds going into the season after acquiring top tier talent on offense and having a strong D including a DPOY candidate (pre-helmet assault). They’re currently 6-8, and as of 12/10 on FO, Baker is 25th in the league in both DVOA and DYAR while having more 3-outs and TOs per drive than TDs and FGs per drive. He’s also the 29th ranked QB by ANY/A on PFR.

That was Vegas digging in peoples pockets...let's be real.

7th highest SB odds for a team with a losing record the year prior, dont know the last time they had a winning record or made the playoffs and with an unknown head coach? Because of OBJ who's only been on 1 team with a winning record and made the playoffs once himself, no different with Landry? We both know that this was Vegas playing clean up. So much so that you didnt even believe it, and as a Baker fan, I never even reiterated such odds. I thought they had a legit shot at the playoffs though...dont get me wrong, but 7th odds for the SB? Anyone who considered that deserved to hand over their money.

Everything else you typed was valid though, this SB odds mean nothing but profit for folks who put out the odds and selling it to folks who are emotionally attached to their team. 

I said this before...How about the Browns get a winning record first, win their division first, maybe even earn a playoff birth first. 

That's called "hype" because it was based on nothing substantial. 

Baker's stats are his stats. There's no way around that. What makes it bad is that as a talent, he's better than what he's produced this season. Definite regression there. 

The coaching staff needs to go for sure. 

 

[greenwichjetfan]

3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

That was Vegas digging in peoples pockets...let's be real.

7th highest SB odds for a team with a losing record the year prior, dont know the last time they had a winning record or made the playoffs and with an unknown head coach? Because of OBJ who's only been on 1 team with a winning record and made the playoffs once himself, no different with Landry? We both know that this was Vegas playing clean up. So much so that you didnt even believe it, and as a Baker fan, I never even reiterated such odds. I thought they had a legit shot at the playoffs though...dont get me wrong, but 7th odds for the SB? Anyone who considered that deserved to hand over their money.

Everything else you typed was valid though, this SB odds mean nothing but profit for folks who put out the odds and selling it to folks who are emotionally attached to their team. 

I said this before...How about the Browns get a winning record first, win their division first, maybe even earn a playoff birth first. 

That's called "hype" because it was based on nothing substantial. 

Baker's stats are his stats. There's no way around that. What makes it bad is that as a talent, he's better than what he's produced this season. Definite regression there. 

The coaching staff needs to go for sure. 

 

I 100% didn’t believe the SB hype and was quick to say it last offseason.

Still, the odds were what they were because Vegas and enough people voted with their money that the roster was good enough for a SB. Baker’s stats being his stats are a driving force for why they won’t even make the playoffs. 

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I 100% didn’t believe the SB hype and was quick to say it last offseason.

Still, the odds were what they were because Vegas and enough people voted with their money that the roster was good enough for a SB. Baker’s stats being his stats are a driving force for why they won’t even make the playoffs. 

Yeah, but folks vote for the lotto with their money everyday looking to get "lucky" on odds that are clearly not in their favor. And the lotto has proven time, and time....AND TIME again how stupid it is to do that. 

Anyone with common sense, such as yourself, knew better. 

[Villain The Foe]

5 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I 100% didn’t believe the SB hype and was quick to say it last offseason.

Still, the odds were what they were because Vegas and enough people voted with their money that the roster was good enough for a SB. Baker’s stats being his stats are a driving force for why they won’t even make the playoffs. 

Sorry, I forgot to comment on the bolded.

You're absolutely correct in this assessment. Baker's stats are a driving force for why they wont even make the playoffs. The problem with that is that when you're depending on a 2nd year QB to be the driving force, that means that there are plenty of areas lacking in their team building, which are outside of QB or personnel. 

Baker had a much better season his rookie year than this year, correct? He was runner-up for Rookie of the year, yet they still missed the playoffs. Last year he was the driving force on why they changed course mid season. 

 

My point is this, the Pittsburgh steelers are currently in playoff position (currently the 6th seed) despite losing Ben Roethlisberger (A future HOF QB) in week 2. Furthermore, the Steelers also started off the season 0-2. 

Why is the loss of Big Ben not the driving force for them being a 2-12 team, but instead they're sitting at 8-6 with a 4th string QB? 

Probably because they have a better team, with a stable franchise and a stable coaching staff who has never produced a losing season in Pittsburgh. 

 

Sometimes, we put way too much on 2nd year QB's when we know that franchises have histories many players have to overcome. Look at the amount of talent the Steelers lost from Bell to Brown to Ben to Conner being injured this year, etc. 

 

Winning franchises have a driving force at all facets of their franchise. 

[jetstream23]

ESPN loves them some Baker...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28258920/baker-mayfield-beefs-stories-slights-motivate-cleveland-browns-qb

[greenwichjetfan]

41 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Sorry, I forgot to comment on the bolded.

You're absolutely correct in this assessment. Baker's stats are a driving force for why they wont even make the playoffs. The problem with that is that when you're depending on a 2nd year QB to be the driving force, that means that there are plenty of areas lacking in their team building, which are outside of QB or personnel. 

Baker had a much better season his rookie year than this year, correct? He was runner-up for Rookie of the year, yet they still missed the playoffs. Last year he was the driving force on why they changed course mid season. 

 

My point is this, the Pittsburgh steelers are currently in playoff position (currently the 6th seed) despite losing Ben Roethlisberger (A future HOF QB) in week 2. Furthermore, the Steelers also started off the season 0-2. 

Why is the loss of Big Ben not the driving force for them being a 2-12 team, but instead they're sitting at 8-6 with a 4th string QB? 

Probably because they have a better team, with a stable franchise and a stable coaching staff who has never produced a losing season in Pittsburgh. 

 

Sometimes, we put way too much on 2nd year QB's when we know that franchises have histories many players have to overcome. Look at the amount of talent the Steelers lost from Bell to Brown to Ben to Conner being injured this year, etc. 

 

Winning franchises have a driving force at all facets of their franchise. 

Of course coaching matters. Baker's on his third HC in less than 2 years, and is flaunting a losing record and sub-par play even with all of the coaching and personnel changes to get better or to give him the HC he prefers. 

[Villain The Foe]

32 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Of course coaching matters. Baker's on his third HC in less than 2 years, and is flaunting a losing record and sub-par play even with all of the coaching and personnel changes to get better or to give him the HC he prefers. 

Which is why it's best for the GM to provide a HC that the team best needs and not a HC that a player prefers. 

That's how you lose your job and squander talent. John Dorsey has put together a nice team, but he dropped the ball at coaching 100%. 

It's an important thing to get right. Even all-time greats can be negatively impacted. I'm loving the return to greatness of Aaron Rodgers.

 

[greenwichjetfan]

22 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Which is why it's best for the GM to provide a HC that the team best needs and not a HC that a player prefers. 

That's how you lose your job and squander talent. John Dorsey has put together a nice team, but he dropped the ball at coaching 100%. 

It's an important thing to get right. Even all-time greats can be negatively impacted. I'm loving the return to greatness of Aaron Rodgers.

 

First overall draft pick QB who almost won OROY should play better than bottom-fourth in the league when the GM gives him exactly what he wants for coaching and provides strong upgrades to an already talented team. You can spin it to blame Vegas or the HC or now the GM, but ultimately this is exactly how you should build a team around a young QB. 

[Jets723]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

First overall draft pick QB who almost won OROY should play better than bottom-fourth in the league when the GM gives him exactly what he wants for coaching and provides strong upgrades to an already talented team. You can spin it to blame Vegas or the HC or now the GM, but ultimately this is exactly how you should build a team around a young QB. 

That’s fair.  I don’t think it’s fair to blame everything on him because he is still a young QB BUT with all that talent around him there shouldn’t be that big of a drop in play no matter who the coach is.  I would say the same thing if Sam was in that situation.  Now like I said yesterday it’s possible Baker is just having a down year.  He could easily bounce back next year but either way I don’t think it’s fair to blame to coach.  I’m not a Fan of Gase but I’m not gonna blame him when Dam makes a bad decision 

[Villain The Foe]

59 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

First overall draft pick QB who almost won OROY should play better than bottom-fourth in the league when the GM gives him exactly what he wants for coaching and provides strong upgrades to an already talented team. You can spin it to blame Vegas or the HC or now the GM, but ultimately this is exactly how you should build a team around a young QB. 

Or, maybe the GM should have kept the Head Coach in place that was there when Mayfield was playing the way he was and almost won OROTY. 

Giving someone exactly what they wanted doesnt mean that you gave them exactly what they needed. 

 

You can spin it to blame Mayfield for not living up to Vegas odds that you didnt even believe yourself, or for not having as good a season under another HC when the HC that he produced under was let go. This is exactly how not to build a team around a young QB. Jeff Fischer had an absolutely STACKED Rams team, yet couldnt do anything. Getting the right coach changed everything going on with that organization. 

 

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

You can spin it to blame Mayfield

I could but the spin would be unnecessary. 

[Villain The Foe]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I could but the spin would be unnecessary. 

And yet you do so anyway (vegas odds???), so much so that you're willing to delete every fact I presented only to respond with something that provides nothing to the conversation. 

That's pretty unnecessary. 

[Losmeister]

His QBR is almost identical to last year.  2018 QBR =  51.2

As of today...    2019 QBR = 51.8...  (ESPN #s)

difference? All the hype last year, and the overexpectations THIS year. 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Losmeister said:

His QBR is almost identical to last year.  2018 QBR =  51.2

As of today...    2019 QBR = 51.8...  (ESPN #s)

difference? All the hype last year, and the overexpectations THIS year. 

Are you suggesting that he's having a similar year? 

 

[JustInFudge]

16 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

while having more 3-outs and TOs per drive than TDs and FGs per drive

[Losmeister]

9 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Are you suggesting that he's having a similar year? 

 

I didnt design the stats.

yeah, he threw more TDs and fewer INts..     so then why is the QBR so damned similar?

My thought is b/c its WEIGHTED.

All TDs and INts are not created equal. I think...

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

I didnt design the stats.

yeah, he threw more TDs and fewer INts..     so then why is the QBR so damned similar?

My thought is b/c its WEIGHTED.

All TDs and INts are not created equal. I think...

So when you watched him last year vs this year, what did you think? 

[#27TheDominator]

56 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Or, maybe the GM should have kept the Head Coach in place that was there when Mayfield was playing the way he was and almost won OROTY. 

Giving someone exactly what they wanted doesnt mean that you gave them exactly what they needed. 

 

You can spin it to blame Mayfield for not living up to Vegas odds that you didnt even believe yourself, or for not having as good a season under another HC when the HC that he produced under was let go. This is exactly how not to build a team around a young QB. Jeff Fischer had an absolutely STACKED Rams team, yet couldnt do anything. Getting the right coach changed everything going on with that organization. 

 

Are you blaming the GM for giving Baker Mayfield the coach he wanted?  

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Are you blaming the GM for giving Baker Mayfield the coach he wanted?  

Im blaming the GM for not getting the right coach for the team. Absolutely. 

 

Let me quote myself. 

59 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Or, maybe the GM should have kept the Head Coach in place that was there when Mayfield was playing the way he was and almost won OROTY. 

Giving someone exactly what they wanted doesnt mean that you gave them exactly what they needed. 

 

You can spin it to blame Mayfield for not living up to Vegas odds that you didnt even believe yourself, or for not having as good a season under another HC when the HC that he produced under was let go. This is exactly how not to build a team around a young QB. Jeff Fischer had an absolutely STACKED Rams team, yet couldnt do anything. Getting the right coach changed everything going on with that organization. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Which is why it's best for the GM to provide a HC that the team best needs and not a HC that a player prefers. 

That's how you lose your job and squander talent. John Dorsey has put together a nice team, but he dropped the ball at coaching 100%. 

It's an important thing to get right. Even all-time greats can be negatively impacted. I'm loving the return to greatness of Aaron Rodgers.

 

 

[Losmeister]

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

So when you watched him last year vs this year, what did you think? 

Last year :" Pretty decent"

This year "Meh"

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

Last year :" Pretty decent"

This year "Meh"

Are those similar? 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Im blaming the GM for not getting the right coach for the team. Absolutely. 

 

Let me quote myself. 

 

 

Fair enough.  I don't know if you have noticed, but Baker Mayfield has not exactly responded positively to tough love. 

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Fair enough.  I don't know if you have noticed, but Baker Mayfield has not exactly responded positively to tough love. 

Examples?

[Losmeister]

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Are those similar? 

To me...  not that far apart.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

To me...  not that far apart.

Cool 

[#27TheDominator]

17 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Examples?

Every single thing we've ever read about him.  

[Villain The Foe]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Every single thing we've ever read about him.  

Can you provide some specific examples? 
 

I would like to know some examples of Baker ignoring or not handling tough love from his coaches. 

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

And yet you do so anyway (vegas odds???), so much so that you're willing to delete every fact I presented only to respond with something that provides nothing to the conversation. 

That's pretty unnecessary. 

None of what I deleted was facts. They were all feelings. Just like a simple search would produce more of your feelings about how you liked the Kitchens hire and how impressed you were with Dorsey "letting his balls hang" for going for it with Kitchens. Yet over the last 24 hours, you've said Kitchens is not HC material and that Dorsey is at fault for giving the star #1 overall pick what he wants in terms of talent surrounding him and the coach with whom he almost won OROY. So carry on wit ya spinsta self!

[Villain The Foe]

30 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

None of what I deleted was facts. They were all feelings. 

I'll quote myself. 

2 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Or, maybe the GM should have kept the Head Coach in place that was there when Mayfield was playing the way he was and almost won OROTY. 

Giving someone exactly what they wanted doesnt mean that you gave them exactly what they needed. 

 

You can spin it to blame Mayfield for not living up to Vegas odds that you didnt even believe yourself, or for not having as good a season under another HC when the HC that he produced under was let go. This is exactly how not to build a team around a young QB. Jeff Fischer had an absolutely STACKED Rams team, yet couldnt do anything. Getting the right coach changed everything going on with that organization. 

 

#1. It's a fact that Mayfield isnt playing under Greg Williams. 

#2. It's a fact that Jeff Fischer was a coach of a stacked Rams team and couldnt win more than 7 games in a season during his 5 seasons, with his last season winning just 4 games, while producing one of the worst rookie QB season performances in Jared Goff...this is while having Aaron Darnold for 3 seasons as well. McVay took that same team that won 4 games and won 11 games the following season. The next season he won 13 games and went to the SB. A team that Fischer won 4 games with his last year McVay has won no less than 11 games with and has a Superbowl appearance. 

Those are not feelings. Feelings would be deleting comparable scenarios regarding shotty coaching that someone mentions just to make a comment like this below that provides nothing to the conversation being had. 

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I could but the spin would be unnecessary. 

 

Continuing on...

Quote

Just like a simple search would produce more of your feelings about how you liked the Kitchens hire and how impressed you were with Dorsey "letting his balls hang" for going for it with Kitchens. Yet over the last 24 hours, you've said Kitchens is not HC material and that Dorsey is at fault for giving the star #1 overall pick what he wants in terms of talent surrounding him and the coach with whom he almost won OROY. So carry on wit ya spinsta self!

And most of what could be searched is sitting right here in this thread, with me still in it. So I dont run from what I say. I either back up with I say, or say that im wrong. And since this is the first time someone has mentioned my feelings on kitchens at the time, I have no problem saying that I was clearly wrong on the hire. However, 5 months later, the hire has shown to be the wrong one, and the fact that over the past 24 hours I've expressed that shows that im willing to admit when something isnt working and make the right changes. It's one thing to be wrong, it's another thing to be WRONG. And Villain isnt in the building with Kitchens so I get to only experience what's on the outside. Dorsey's vantage point is quite different than mine, so for him to be this wrong, is not the same as me endorsing his initial decision. 

Calling out a wrong, and not running from when Im wrong in my endorsement is something I would consider to be diametrically opposed to something like "spinning". But that's your feelings talking here. 

 

 

[greenwichjetfan]

6 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I'll quote myself. 

#1. It's a fact that Mayfield isnt playing under Greg Williams. 

#2. It's a fact that Jeff Fischer was a coach of a stacked Rams team and couldnt win more than 7 games in a season during his 5 seasons, with his last season winning just 4 games, while producing one of the worst rookie QB season performances in Jared Goff...this is while having Aaron Darnold for 3 seasons as well. McVay took that same team that won 4 games and won 11 games, then the following season won 13 and went to the SB. A team that Fischer won 4 games with his last year McVay has won no less than 11 games with. 

Those are not feelings. Feelings would be deleting comparable scenarios that someone mentions just to make a comment like this below, that provides nothing to the conversation being had. 

 

Continuing on...

And most of what could be searched is sitting right here in this thread, with me still in it. So I dont run from what I say. I either back up with I say, or say that im wrong. And since this is the first time someone has mentioned my feelings on kitchens at the time, I have no problem saying that I was clearly wrong on the hire. However, 5 months later, the hire has shown to be the wrong one, and the fact that over the past 24 hours I've expressed that shows that im willing to admit when something isnt working and make the right changes. It's one thing to be wrong, it's another thing to be WRONG. And Villain isnt in the building with Kitchens so I get to only experience what's on the outside. Dorsey's vantage point is quite different than mine, so for him to be this wrong, is not the same as me endorsing his initial decision. 

Calling out a wrong, and not running from when Im wrong in my endorsement is something I would consider to be diametrically opposed to something like "spinning". But that's your feelings talking here. 

 

 

Yea, I’m done for today. Can’t bring myself to wade through 1000 words on VTFs feelz. I’ve already made my points.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Yea, I’m done for today. Can’t bring myself to wade through 1000 words on VTFs feelz. I’ve already made my points.

You were done the moment you said this...

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I could but the spin would be unnecessary. 

That was a couple hours ago. 

 

The moment you said that, just look at how the convo went. It went from talking about football to now you talking about me. Just look above at the underlined. 

 

How old are you? Probably in your 40's or 50's maybe?