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Why the Awful Offensive Line?


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2 hours ago, JiF said:

This team has multiple players that have starting experience in the NFL that play on the OL.  None of them, have been this bad in their entire career.

Kalil and Osemele are former All Pros.

Beachum, Winters, Shell, Compton, Lewis, Harrison - have roughly 250 starts in the NFL between the group.

Suddenly, all of these guys are the worst offensive lineman in all of Football.

I wonder what's different? 

First, these 5 guys have never played together before as a unit, not even in the preaseason.

Second, emphasize the word "former" when talking about Kalil and Osemele.  Both are 2 or more years removed from being good OL.  Age and/or injuries have diminished both, apparently significantly.

Then, last year's three holdovers have always been JAGs at best, and just generally crappy in the case of Winters. Beachum and Shell have both been repeatedly manhandled by defenders this year.  Maybe some of that is the coincidence of facing three pretty good DLs so far.  Maybe not.

Time erodes all things, esp. the performance of athletes.

 

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The players are either over the hill or just plain bad. I am not ready to blame coaching, yet. Not when you see guys looking around and not touching anybody. You need a Coach to tell you; "When you see a guy in a different jersey, block him.  Oh and try not to get the QB killed"

It will probably not get really fixed until next year, which sux.

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29 minutes ago, TheClashFan said:

First, these 5 guys have never played together before as a unit, not even in the preaseason.

Second, emphasize the word "former" when talking about Kalil and Osemele.  Both are 2 or more years removed from being good OL.  Age and/or injuries have diminished both, apparently significantly.

Then, last year's three holdovers have always been JAGs at best, and just generally crappy in the case of Winters. Beachum and Shell have both been repeatedly manhandled by defenders this year.  Maybe some of that is the coincidence of facing three pretty good DLs so far.  Maybe not.

Time erodes all things, esp. the performance of athletes.

 

Offensive lineman play well into their 30's on the regular in this league.  The Jets currently have 1 offensive lineman over the age of 30 and that was the hand selected Ryan Kalil (who just last year was the C for the Panther who offense was 10th in yards in the league).  

Suddenly, even the holdovers Jags, are all playing their worst Football of their entire careers.

Coincidence?  I dont think so.

 

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2 hours ago, JiF said:

This team has multiple players that have starting experience in the NFL that play on the OL.  None of them, have been this bad in their entire career.

Kalil and Osemele are former All Pros.

Beachum, Winters, Shell, Compton, Lewis, Harrison - have roughly 250 starts in the NFL between the group.

Suddenly, all of these guys are the worst offensive lineman in all of Football.

I wonder what's different? 

I guess they ruined demaryius Thomas too

youre smarter than this

these guys are either washed up or never good to begin with 

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1 minute ago, Obrien2Toon said:

I guess they ruined demaryius Thomas too

youre smarter than this

these guys are either washed up or never good to begin with 

Thomas was shot last year, clear as day.  Also he was coming off a season ending injury.  Him sucking was to be expected because he's the definition of the word shot.   Comparing him and where he is at in his career to the OL is truly apples to oranges. 

The offensive line was supposedly upgraded this offseason with the additions of Osemele, Lewis, Compton and Kalil.  Now, they're washed up?  It's a convenient narrative but that wasnt the voice of popular opinion until week 1 hit.

 

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3 hours ago, JetsLife said:

Please pardon if this has been covered:

Do you think the Jets' awful offensive line is strictly a personnel issue, or is it coaching? Or is it more like 60/40 personnel v coaching ... or what ratio?

My impression entering week 1: o-line was a concern & would demonstrate as much occasionally ... BUT: as a veteran unit would hold up enough for the Jets to score around 20 points per game. My general tendency is to blame coaching first. Which I know isn't a hard & fast rule. My thing is: we've all seen decimated o-lines do just enough for an offense to function. If not at a consistently high-scoring level. That's down to good surrounding talent and good coaching.

I would say mostly a lack of talent, combined with awful coaching. I believe that your question makes perfect sense. So why go for the high priced RB instead of a better than average one combined with a good line? Just like hiring the coach before the GM twice in a row. This is not a matter of the chicken or the egg, this is like saying a child is born before the parents. 

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9 minutes ago, JiF said:

Thomas was shot last year, clear as day.  Also he was coming off a season ending injury.  Him sucking was to be expected because he's the definition of the word shot.   Comparing him and where he is at in his career to the OL is truly apples to oranges. 

The offensive line was supposedly upgraded this offseason with the additions of Osemele, Lewis, Compton and Kalil.  Now, they're washed up?  It's a convenient narrative but that wasnt the voice of popular opinion until week 1 hit.

 

I agree the mess we're in is coaching related. Gase in particular stands out due to playcalling really testing blocking schemes or lack thereof.

We all knew the line would suck but what we've witnessed for 3 games is beyond sucking

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3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

47% Frank Pollack

34% Players

19% Gase

85% players 

15% on Gase for not benching said players.

 

Kahlil, Winters and Osemele are like Matadors out there.  Apparently Osemele has been "done" for two years now, unfortunately nobody told Mac.  Winters was a barely serviceable OL, now he would be  a detriment to a practice squad.  Kahlil never came out of retirement.

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1 hour ago, Losmeister said:

oh, you mean whiffing on blocks, getting beat like drums and looking for someone to block while having blocked no one as your QB gets sacked?

Not sure if that’s a skill set haha. I rambled and started referring to the entire offense with that last part. I hope it all works out but there are some red flags for sure. 

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9 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Not sure if that’s a skill set haha. I rambled and started referring to the entire offense with that last part. I hope it all works out but there are some red flags for sure. 

i mean, peeps was talkin smack ...we needed more cREATIVNESS on O to compete w/ NE.

CReative O likely= more complex O, we cant make simple blocks. more trickery woulda meant more neg plays w/ the THIRD STRING QB...   not just the BACKUp, the 3rd. theres a lovely thread of ignorance that equate our 3rd guy with 2nd guys with better teams.

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4 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I have concerns over the scheme and coaching compounding with the line being pretty old and regressing. Most of the offensive coaching has seemed like it’s not flexible and they are going full in on forcing the system on players regardless of outcome.

If you are going to be inflexible and do that, then you need to build the team from the ground up. This is also why Gase was probably against signing Bell. Gase seems like a rigid system guy which makes the situation very boom or bust. Right now we are seeing the bust end since he doesn’t have “his guys”. 

I’m not making excuses for him and I don’t agree with being inflexible and not trying to work with your players’ skill sets. It’s just interesting and seems to be what’s happening. 

I dont agree with this.  He ran a fast offense with Manning.  He ran a slow offense in Miami.  He ran a pass based offense in Denver.  A more run based in Chicago.

He moved Crowder to the outside for the majority of the snaps against New England and put Berrios in the slot.  It didn't work but he tried something different.

I think the analogy is more like being asked to cook a somewhat difficult meal without the best ingredients, and then find out some of those ingredients have spoiled at the last minute.

He had to put something on the plate by meal time,  and it was rushed and it didnt taste very good.  But that does not mean he cant cook...

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1 hour ago, ChuckkieB said:

In the week 3 post game show, Bart Scott said that Gase's OL blocking schemes are not playing to the lineman's strengths and he should adjust his schemes around his personnel but has not, at least so far.  

For what it's worth, I think Bart Scott is dead on.  

 

I think this is right.  

With Bowles and now Gase, there definitely appears to be a requirement on the Jets coaches to play the players being paid. 

Mac added KO to the line, which everyone thought was a good move.  KO is a man-to-man blocker.  Gase has traditionally used big man-to-man linemen that guys like Jay Ajahi can run behind.   Mac then goes off and signs Bell, a great player but reportedly over Gase’ objection, and now they are trying to make it fit together.  

It could get worse before it gets better.  

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46 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

I dont agree with this.  He ran a fast offense with Manning.  He ran a slow offense in Miami.  He ran a pass based offense in Denver.  A more run based in Chicago.

He moved Crowder to the outside for the majority of the snaps against New England and put Berrios in the slot.  It didn't work but he tried something different.

I think the analogy is more like being asked to cook a somewhat difficult meal without the best ingredients, and then find out some of those ingredients have spoiled at the last minute.

He had to put something on the plate by meal time,  and it was rushed and it didnt taste very good.  But that does not mean he cant cook...

Great points. I didn’t follow Gase much but you are correct about his relationship with Manning. I was just suggesting how things seem now and maybe that’s why there is such a disconnect. It’s tough to pinpoint. 

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6 hours ago, JetsLife said:

Please pardon if this has been covered:

Do you think the Jets' awful offensive line is strictly a personnel issue, or is it coaching? Or is it more like 60/40 personnel v coaching ... or what ratio?

My impression entering week 1: o-line was a concern & would demonstrate as much occasionally ... BUT: as a veteran unit would hold up enough for the Jets to score around 20 points per game. My general tendency is to blame coaching first. Which I know isn't a hard & fast rule. My thing is: we've all seen decimated o-lines do just enough for an offense to function. If not at a consistently high-scoring level. That's down to good surrounding talent and good coaching.

the root cause is poor drafting over the past 7 years by idzik and mac.  after that it's the oline hasn't played together long enough and they are being taught a different blocking scheme.  the players themselves aren't the most talented group in the nfl either. it could be the coaching for not being able to teach the guys what they know.  and gase is in the middle because he's the head guy and should be calling plays that help the team negate the pass rush.

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3 hours ago, DonCorleone said:

I would say mostly a lack of talent, combined with awful coaching. I believe that your question makes perfect sense. So why go for the high priced RB instead of a better than average one combined with a good line? Just like hiring the coach before the GM twice in a row. This is not a matter of the chicken or the egg, this is like saying a child is born before the parents. 

the part about the high priced rb over the oline is a little overblown.  the jets are still under the cap and there weren't a whole lot of good olinemen on the free agent market.  the only way to get one is trade and that means giving up decent draft picks.  imo that would just make things worse.

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Connor Hughes wrote an article for The Athletic today and in there when talking about the OL struggles, he mentions the notion of simplifying things for that unit. Apparently, even though most on here will say otherwise, that’s the first thing Gase and staff tried to do taking it so far as going to NE with only 4 protections. They went as basic as they possibly could for those guys and it still was a disaster. Obviously implying this goes way beyond coaching and scheme.

Later in the article he also implies that he has been told/overheard that a number of guys in the locker room have not fully bought into what the new regime is teaching. 

Its a good read and Connor (unlike another beat reporter) usually has well sourced and accurate info.

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7 hours ago, JetsLife said:

Please pardon if this has been covered:

Do you think the Jets' awful offensive line is strictly a personnel issue, or is it coaching? Or is it more like 60/40 personnel v coaching ... or what ratio?

My impression entering week 1: o-line was a concern & would demonstrate as much occasionally ... BUT: as a veteran unit would hold up enough for the Jets to score around 20 points per game. My general tendency is to blame coaching first. Which I know isn't a hard & fast rule. My thing is: we've all seen decimated o-lines do just enough for an offense to function. If not at a consistently high-scoring level. That's down to good surrounding talent and good coaching.

I think it's coaching. This OL is not very good, but they are NOT as bad as they've played. The communication is so poor free rushers are coming through uncontested. The HC has to work with what he has and get the players on the same page.

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11 hours ago, JiF said:

This team has multiple players that have starting experience in the NFL that play on the OL.  None of them, have been this bad in their entire career.

Kalil and Osemele are former All Pros.

Beachum, Winters, Shell, Compton, Lewis, Harrison - have roughly 250 starts in the NFL between the group.

Suddenly, all of these guys are the worst offensive lineman in all of Football.

I wonder what's different? 

Have you missed the last decade of Jets offense?

  • Winters HAS been this bad.
  • Harrison isn't starting
  • Kalil is coming out of retirement

There's nothing "sudden" about the Jets offensive OL. They suck since 2011...Gase has had them for months so not sure he's made them worse than they are.

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These are grown men and experienced players. There should be no reason to have to "fix" anything. Everyone should know their job, but it appears that the coaches and players either are unaware of what their jobs are or they are incapable of performing them. Either way, the fact remains that the coaching is atrocious, and the players just stink. 

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14 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Brian Winters started last year with Spencer Long next to him most of the season and the o-line somehow looks worse this year. Like - a lot worse. I didn't think it was even possible. It's like how Macagnan somehow was worse than Idzik.

Kalil has been a debacle.  Harrison needs to start over him he’s younger and better

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13 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

Some of it is the players

Some of it is coaching 

But a lot of it is scheme fit.....we have OL built for Gap Blocking and we run a ZBS.....checkmate Macagnan again 🤦🏾‍♂️

The playcalling has been uncreative.  

 

Gase loves 5 step drops from under center singleback even when it’s completely obvious our OL is getting dominated at LOS.

 

Gase also loves completely obvious screen plays that opposing defenses always read 

 

When your OL cannot block you have to go in shotgun 4 wide to spread out the defense then throw quick passes

 

 

That is the only defense of this OL so far that Gase totally sucks

 

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On 9/25/2019 at 1:55 PM, ChuckkieB said:

In the week 3 post game show, Bart Scott said that Gase's OL blocking schemes are not playing to the lineman's strengths and he should adjust his schemes around his personnel but has not, at least so far.  

For what it's worth, I think Bart Scott is dead on.  

 

Beachum couldn’t block Myles Garret — what does Gase do?  Leaves him on an island with Myles Garrett, sh-t there were several plays were no one was even lining up against Garrett

 

Kalil doesn’t know some of the terminology and is not in shape -  why is he playing?

 

And yes Bart is right they are playing zone sh-t when none of these guys are suited for that

 

Gase is a f-cking disaster I admit I was wrong about he’s a worse Mangini much worse

 

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