Elite QBs make their own weaponz, not the other way around

[jgb]

After Tyreek Hill went out Q1, Week 1 with a clavicle, KC has had 4 players with at least one 100-yard game in the first five weeks of the season.

 

Receivers with at least one 100-yard game for KC this year:

-Byron Pringle

-Sammy Watkins

-Demarcus Robinson

-Travis Kelce

Honorable mention:

-Mecole Hardman had a 97-yard, 1 TD game.

 

Pringle, Robinson and Hardman would be considered replacement-level players on a team with even a merely-good (rather than elite) QB. Obviously Mahomes is an extreme elite outlier, but if you have a franchise QB, lack o'dem weaponz does not make him play like a bum. An elite player will show it regardless of his supporting cast, although obviously a better supporting cast is better. It's actually relatively easy to see if a QB has "it" or not and if you find yourself excusing bad QB play due to weaponz... you don't have an elite QB.

Let's hope Darnold gets healthy and shows he can be The Man for a decade or more here. 

[The Crusher]

Can they make lineman too?

[nyjunc]

There are very few elite QBs, his like Brady, Rodgers and now mahomes can win with anyone (still early on mahomes but so far other than last night it appears to be true).  Most still need quality weapons around them.

[nyjunc]

Just now, The Crusher said:

Can they make lineman too?

Absolutely, they can't make a bad one a great one but they can make their OLs look much better than they are.  There's no way we have 10 sacks yesterday with Sam and Sam isn't an elite QB.  Good QBs make their OLs look better than they are.

[Integrity28]

Idealism and absurd comparisons are fun!

[nico002]

Mahomes put up 13 points against the Colts Swiss cheese defense.

[JustInFudge]

You haven’t heard?  Those guys are all elite and would be the best player in the history of this franchise! 

[Warfish]

So we’re saying QB just needs time, and weapons?

How new and novel.

[The Voice of Reason]

43 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Mahomes put up 13 points against the Colts Swiss cheese defense.

Colts defense is one of the fastest in the league... hence why they were a good match against the track meet of a KC team... teams that have bigger personnel make colts look bad with missed tackles... that is not KC's game.

[ScarletKnight89]

It's not the weapons I worry about for Darnold. We have players who can get open and catch the ball. The problem is the O-Line. With that said, our offense should be very much improved with Darnold. I just hope they can protect him to it least some degree. 

[The Voice of Reason]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So we’re saying QB just needs time, and weapons?

How new and novel.

No, he is saying that Elite QBs elevate the play of the players around them to make them stars... average QBs need weapons around them to make things happen.

[Grandy]

46 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Mahomes put up 13 points against the Colts Swiss cheese defense.

Didn't we put up 42 on that same team?

[JimJaime]

45 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Mahomes put up 13 points against the Colts Swiss cheese defense.

He was also playing injured and wasn’t as Mobil. That said the Chiefs have been playing with Fire for weeks. They needed Detroit to fumble the game away to them to win and also had to hang on against Baltimore.. they could easily have a losing record.

[ChuckkieB]

We are dealing with the worst O line I've seen in 45+ years of watching football.  Even the most elite of QB's would be unproductive under these circumstances.  That being said, Luke Falk is a 3rd string QB and not legit NFL quality so what can we possibly expect from him?  Pretty much what we are getting.  This is the perfect storm of terrible players all working together to create the abomination we are witnessing.  I'm actually in awe of the level of putridness.  

[The Voice of Reason]

1 minute ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

It's not the weapons I worry about for Darnold. We have players who can get open and catch the ball. The problem is the O-Line. With that said, our offense should be very much improved with Darnold. I just hope they can protect him to it least some degree. 

Falk and Siemian (known both for holding onto the ball too long) are the bigger problem for the Oline... Darnold's mobility will stop the bleeding... Right now the defenses pile the box with up to 10 players at times because they had no shot for a deep pass. Its easy for defenses to pass rush when the back half of the field is non-existent... If Darnold can put a defense on its heels a bit, it will naturally open holes for Bell... now with the fear of Bell or a deep pass the pass rushers may need to hesitate a quick second before coming in. 

Darnold just needs to show that he is the truth... until then this team is going to look like crap.

[bealeb319]

If you have time in the pocket to wait for guys to get open alot of decent qbs can look elite.

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

Idealism and absurd comparisons are fun!

It's almost like this is a discussion board or somethin

[slats]

I'd like some weaponz, please. They don't hurt. It's not like Joe Montana was hamstrung by Jerry Rice. 

[jgb]

52 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So we’re saying QB just needs time, and weapons?

How new and novel.

The opposite

44 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

No, he is saying that Elite QBs elevate the play of the players around them to make them stars... average QBs need weapons around them to make things happen.

Thank you

39 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

We are dealing with the worst O line I've seen in 45+ years of watching football.  Even the most elite of QB's would be unproductive under these circumstances.  That being said, Luke Falk is a 3rd string QB and not legit NFL quality so what can we possibly expect from him?  Pretty much what we are getting.  This is the perfect storm of terrible players all working together to create the abomination we are witnessing.  I'm actually in awe of the level of putridness.  

One does not make pre-excuses for a franchise QB. Sam with either pass the eye test or he will not. He looked pretty good against Buffalo all things considered before he got completely exhausted. His 2-pt conversion was the best play I've seen from a Jets QB since the Monday Night Miracle.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

I'd like some weaponz, please. They don't hurt. It's not like Joe Montana was hamstrung by Jerry Rice. 

Me too. Just saying this notion that we can't evaluate Sam in the current environment is wrong. That same thinking had us stuck in the Sanchez/Geno brain warp for like eight combined years.

 

 

[dbatesman]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

One does not make pre-excuses for a franchise QB. 

"A guy you don't have to make excuses for" is actually a pretty good working definition of the term.

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

The opposite

You?  Yes.  Most other, no.

 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

One does not make pre-excuses for a franchise QB. Sam with either pass the eye test or he will not. He looked pretty good against Buffalo all things considered before he got completely exhausted. His 2-pt conversion was the best play I've seen from a Jets QB since the Monday Night Miracle.

Was talking about this play yesterday watching the game. Agree. It was a fantastic individual effort. I think (hope?) that we'll continue to see those flashes, but we won't see the consistency until the OL and WRs improve. Jets are bottom of the league at both of those position groups. Darnold can maybe make them look better, but we can't expect them to look like stars. I'm hoping Darnold, Bell, Crowder and Herndon is enough to win a few games and maybe get the fanbase off the ledge. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

"A guy you don't have to make excuses for" is actually a pretty good working definition of the term.

I agree completely.  The term "franchise QB" is probably my #1 pet peeve around here.  IMO there are few franchise guys.  Rodgers, Brady, Brees.  There are some guys that are studs you can build around and I can see using the term on - Wilson, Ryan, etc.  OTOH, every starting level QB is not a franchise guy.  Cousins is fine and he solves the problem for a dozen teams, but that does not make him a "franchise" player.  Sanchez was obviously never one, and the fact that numbskulls need to anoint every QB drafted as a "Franchise guy" is maddening.

[Integrity28]

25 minutes ago, jgb said:

It's almost like this is a discussion board or somethin

Then why do you use it like a perpetual tampon?

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Was talking about this play yesterday watching the game. Agree. It was a fantastic individual effort. I think (hope?) that we'll continue to see those flashes, but we won't see the consistency until the OL and WRs improve. Jets are bottom of the league at both of those position groups. Darnold can maybe make them look better, but we can't expect them to look like stars. I'm hoping Darnold, Bell, Crowder and Herndon is enough to win a few games and maybe get the fanbase off the ledge. 

I know it will reduce posts, but let them jump.  

[The Crusher]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

The opposite

Thank you

One does not make pre-excuses for a franchise QB. Sam with either pass the eye test or he will not. He looked pretty good against Buffalo all things considered before he got completely exhausted. His 2-pt conversion was the best play I've seen from a Jets QB since the Monday Night Miracle.

Good post now that I understand what your saying. It's up to Gase to let Sam get out of the pocket and avoid the pressure up the gut. I think Sam will elevate the guys around him as soon as he has any sort of space to play. In my opinion we win that first game if the kicker could kick and if CJ Mosley had a more durable groin. 

[dbatesman]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I agree completely.  The term "franchise QB" is probably my #1 pet peeve around here.  IMO there are few franchise guys.  Rodgers, Brady, Brees.  There are some guys that are studs you can build around and I can see using the term on - Wilson, Ryan, etc.  OTOH, every starting level QB is not a franchise guy.  Cousins is fine and he solves the problem for a dozen teams, but that does not make him a "franchise" player.  Sanchez was obviously never one, and the fact that numbskulls need to anoint every QB drafted as a "Franchise guy" is maddening.

The best is during the draft, when any QB taken in the top 50 is met with declarations of "well, [team] just found their next franchise quarterback!" Really? Did they?

[PepPep]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

Absolutely, they can't make a bad one a great one but they can make their OLs look much better than they are.  There's no way we have 10 sacks yesterday with Sam and Sam isn't an elite QB.  Good QBs make their OLs look better than they are.

This is exactly correct. Sam makes this offense look a lot better despite the oline. You could argue him getting mono was a silver lining b/c it exposed how bad this o-line really is and how desperately we need turnover there. However, coaching also matters. And even this oline would be better with better, more creative playcalling.   

[The Crusher]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree completely.  The term "franchise QB" is probably my #1 pet peeve around here.  IMO there are few franchise guys.  Rodgers, Brady, Brees.  There are some guys that are studs you can build around and I can see using the term on - Wilson, Ryan, etc.  OTOH, every starting level QB is not a franchise guy.  Cousins is fine and he solves the problem for a dozen teams, but that does not make him a "franchise" player.  Sanchez was obviously never one, and the fact that numbskulls need to anoint every QB drafted as a "Franchise guy" is maddening.

The term Mangenius made me more crazy. I can still hear Tony Soprano saying it. RIP James.

[JetFaninMI]

50 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

We are dealing with the worst O line I've seen in 45+ years of watching football.  Even the most elite of QB's would be unproductive under these circumstances.  That being said, Luke Falk is a 3rd string QB and not legit NFL quality so what can we possibly expect from him?  Pretty much what we are getting.  This is the perfect storm of terrible players all working together to create the abomination we are witnessing.  I'm actually in awe of the level of putridness.  

Summed up perfectly. I watched the whole game yesterday and it was so bad it was comedic. I kept expecting the Keystone Kops to come out of the huddle and mug for the camera on the next Jet possession.

[FireTheJohnsons]

To be successful in the NFL, you need, guys who can get off the line, enough time to let the QB find the guys off the line, and a guy who can find and deliver more times than not to the guys off the line when he has time. If you have those things, you can be a good offense. The better those things are done, the better the offense. If two of those things are missing, you will have an atrocious offense. If you have 2 of those things, you can cover some warts on the third. For example, if you have really good WR's who get off the line, and the line gives enough time, just about any QB who has gotten to the NFL should make it work at least decent enough to be competitive. The top flight QB's, the truly elite can overcome one of the two gaps if they exist, but cannot overcome both gaps if they exist. 

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

After Tyreek Hill went out Q1, Week 1 with a clavicle, KC has had 4 players with at least one 100-yard game in the first five weeks of the season.

 

Receivers with at least one 100-yard game for KC this year:

-Byron Pringle

-Sammy Watkins

-Demarcus Robinson

-Travis Kelce

Honorable mention:

-Mecole Hardman had a 97-yard, 1 TD game.

 

Pringle, Robinson and Hardman would be considered replacement-level players on a team with even a merely-good (rather than elite) QB. Obviously Mahomes is an extreme elite outlier, but if you have a franchise QB, lack o'dem weaponz does not make him play like a bum. An elite player will show it regardless of his supporting cast, although obviously a better supporting cast is better. It's actually relatively easy to see if a QB has "it" or not and if you find yourself excusing bad QB play due to weaponz... you don't have an elite QB.

Let's hope Darnold gets healthy and shows he can be The Man for a decade or more here. 

Did you watch the game last night? Which of these players you mentioned were elite. Mahomes was limping around, Watkins was out. Kelce should have blown up and didn't.  As a matter of fact it looked like his QB forgot he was playing for most of the game. Pringle had one good series, the one where he scored. Then he disappeared.  You basically saw what happens when when Mahones is not 100% and is missi g his best two WR's. 

[Beerfish]

I partially agree with the op.

A franchise QB is no guarantee that you will win it all and a team can win without one but a 'franchise' QB gets you to the playoffs more often than not and gives you a chance.

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

The best is during the draft, when any QB taken in the top 50 is met with declarations of "well, [team] just found their next franchise quarterback!" Really? Did they?

Mason Rudolph? Davis Webb? Kyle Lauleta?  Hope springs eternal.