Elite QBs make their own weaponz, not the other way around

[slimjasi]

Totally agree, but Mahomes is a generational talent. 

Even if Darnold ends up being really good (something I suspect will happen), he's extremely unlikely to be Mahomes. 

Also, our WRs still suck and I want better ones

[jgb]

24 minutes ago, slats said:

Was talking about this play yesterday watching the game. Agree. It was a fantastic individual effort. I think (hope?) that we'll continue to see those flashes, but we won't see the consistency until the OL and WRs improve. Jets are bottom of the league at both of those position groups. Darnold can maybe make them look better, but we can't expect them to look like stars. I'm hoping Darnold, Bell, Crowder and Herndon is enough to win a few games and maybe get the fanbase off the ledge. 

I just want to see a guy passing the eye test. Will pray each game for him to stay healthy. He needs reps.

[jgb]

22 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Did you watch the game last night? Which of these players you mentioned were elite. Mahomes was limping around, Watkins was out. Kelce should have blown up and didn't.  As a matter of fact it looked like his QB forgot he was playing for most of the game. Pringle had one good series, the one where he scored. Then he disappeared.  You basically saw what happens when when Mahones is not 100% and is missi g his best two WR's. 

1. It's one game.

2. Kelce and Mahomes are elite. That's it. But that elite QB has produced a different 100 yard receiver who is a JAG each week. That's the point. Elite QB's make their own weaponz not the other way around.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree completely.  The term "franchise QB" is probably my #1 pet peeve around here.  IMO there are few franchise guys.  Rodgers, Brady, Brees.  There are some guys that are studs you can build around and I can see using the term on - Wilson, Ryan, etc.  OTOH, every starting level QB is not a franchise guy.  Cousins is fine and he solves the problem for a dozen teams, but that does not make him a "franchise" player.  Sanchez was obviously never one, and the fact that numbskulls need to anoint every QB drafted as a "Franchise guy" is maddening.

Right... So Sam needs to show he is a Franchise level QB... He took huge strides at the end of last year... We haven't really seen him this year, so its impossible to judge at the moment..

[The Voice of Reason]

14 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Totally agree, but Mahomes is a generational talent. 

Even if Darnold ends up being really good (something I suspect will happen), he's extremely unlikely to be Mahomes. 

Also, our WRs still suck and I want better ones

To justify the praise and place where he was taken in the draft he needs to be Mahomes, Brees, Watson, Wilson, Roidgers, Brady, Peyton, etc. etc... otherwise you are dealing with Alex Smith, Stafford, Goff... or maybe worse like Trubisky. If he isn't one of the elites he is a failure of a pick... Period Stop... 

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

To justify the praise and place where he was taken in the draft he needs to be Mahomes, Brees, Watson, Wilson, Roidgers, Brady, Peyton, etc. etc... otherwise you are dealing with Alex Smith, Stafford, Goff... or maybe worse like Trubisky. If he isn't one of the elites he is a failure of a pick... Period Stop... 

Mahomes is a better physical specimen than anyone on that list, except for Rodgers. 

You are missing the point. He can be great, but he's very unlikely to be Mahomes. 

Also, Watson does not belong on that list yet. 

[The Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Mahomes is a better physical specimen than anyone on that list, except for Rodgers. 

You are missing the point. He can be great, but he's very unlikely to be Mahomes. 

Also, Watson does not belong on that list yet. 

Maybe he is not Mahomes but you can't count that out yet... Mahomes started in his sophomore year of the NFL... We haven't even seen a full game of healthy Sam in year 2... It may be unlikely but it not out of the cards yet either.

[More Cowbell]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

1. It's one game.

2. Kelce and Mahomes are elite. That's it. But that elite QB has produced a different 100 yard receiver who is a JAG each week. That's the point. Elite QB's make their own weaponz not the other way around.

 

Nobody is questioning if Mahomes  or Kelce is elite, I'm questioning calling a guy who has one good game a weapon. Having one good game in 5 doesn't  make you a weapon. It means you had a good game but are still a JAG. 

[DRJETS]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

After Tyreek Hill went out Q1, Week 1 with a clavicle, KC has had 4 players with at least one 100-yard game in the first five weeks of the season.

 

Receivers with at least one 100-yard game for KC this year:

-Byron Pringle

-Sammy Watkins

-Demarcus Robinson

-Travis Kelce

Honorable mention:

-Mecole Hardman had a 97-yard, 1 TD game.

 

Pringle, Robinson and Hardman would be considered replacement-level players on a team with even a merely-good (rather than elite) QB. Obviously Mahomes is an extreme elite outlier, but if you have a franchise QB, lack o'dem weaponz does not make him play like a bum. An elite player will show it regardless of his supporting cast, although obviously a better supporting cast is better. It's actually relatively easy to see if a QB has "it" or not and if you find yourself excusing bad QB play due to weaponz... you don't have an elite QB.

Let's hope Darnold gets healthy and shows he can be The Man for a decade or more here. 

Sam does not control who he play for.  For instance Mahones has a TRUE offensive genius with a REAL track record unlike our own con man who made everyone here believed that he was behind Payton’s success.  But if you haven’t seen the 4 games so far including one by Darnolds to see how he had elevated his players around him when he is playing then there is nothing for you to see since your mind is already set.

[DRJETS]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

After Tyreek Hill went out Q1, Week 1 with a clavicle, KC has had 4 players with at least one 100-yard game in the first five weeks of the season.

 

Receivers with at least one 100-yard game for KC this year:

-Byron Pringle

-Sammy Watkins

-Demarcus Robinson

-Travis Kelce

Honorable mention:

-Mecole Hardman had a 97-yard, 1 TD game.

 

Pringle, Robinson and Hardman would be considered replacement-level players on a team with even a merely-good (rather than elite) QB. Obviously Mahomes is an extreme elite outlier, but if you have a franchise QB, lack o'dem weaponz does not make him play like a bum. An elite player will show it regardless of his supporting cast, although obviously a better supporting cast is better. It's actually relatively easy to see if a QB has "it" or not and if you find yourself excusing bad QB play due to weaponz... you don't have an elite QB.

Let's hope Darnold gets healthy and shows he can be The Man for a decade or more here. 

Sam does not control who he play for.  For instance Mahones has a TRUE offensive genius with a REAL track record unlike our own con man who made everyone here believed that he was behind Payton’s success.  But if you haven’t seen the 4 games so far including one by Darnolds to see how he had elevated his players around him when he is playing then there is nothing for you to see since your mind is already set.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Maybe he is not Mahomes but you can't count that out yet... Mahomes started in his sophomore year of the NFL... We haven't even seen a full game of healthy Sam in year 2... It may be unlikely but it not out of the cards yet either.

I'm a huge Darnold guy. I think he has all of the tools to be very good and I think he has a demeanor that will work well in the long run in this league, especially in this town. 

And you are right, it's not out of the question. All I am saying is that the likelihood of any QB reaching that level is extremely low. 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Nobody is questioning if Mahomes  or Kelce is elite, I'm questioning calling a guy who has one good game a weapon. Having one good game in 5 doesn't  make you a weapon. It means you had a good game but are still a JAG. 

I think his main point is that elite QBs can get by with JAGs and make JAGs look a lot better than they really are. 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I'm a huge Darnold guy. I think he has all of the tools to be very good and I think he has a demeanor that will work well in the long run in this league, especially in this town. 

And you are right, it's not out of the question. All I am saying is that the likelihood of any QB reaching that level is extremely low. 

50 years of Pennington, Todd, Sanchez, Geno, Ken O'Brien, Kellen Clemens, Nagle, Bryce Petty etc. etc.... this franchise deserves needs a star...

[August]

Neither are mutually exclusive from the other 

[jgb]

11 minutes ago, DRJETS said:

Sam does not control who he play for.  For instance Mahones has a TRUE offensive genius with a REAL track record unlike our own con man who made everyone here believed that he was behind Payton’s success.  But if you haven’t seen the 4 games so far including one by Darnolds to see how he had elevated his players around him when he is playing then there is nothing for you to see since your mind is already set.

My mind is decidedly not already set. I'm not ready to crown or crucify Darnold, and neither should you.

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think his main point is that elite QBs can get by with JAGs and make JAGs look a lot better than they really are. 

And the corollary, elite QBs don't need a supporting cast of pro bowlers to flash that eliteness.

[More Cowbell]

9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think his main point is that elite QBs can get by with JAGs and make JAGs look a lot better than they really are. 

Ok, but that isn't  exactly the tone of his post. I agree the great QB's make everyoe better.that isn't  a revelation.  I still wouldn't  call Pringle a weapon

[The Voice of Reason]

11 minutes ago, August said:

Neither are mutually exclusive from the other 

They are... that is the point. Elite QBs... ala Brady, don't even need an Oline... traffic cones would suffice .... He is getting the ball out in less then 2 seconds... that is insane... Any garbage would hold a block for 1/2 a second... which is all he needs... 

Goff and Trubisky look good because they have time... but if they had Brady's line... they would look like Falk did.

[dbatesman]

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Goff and Trubisky look good because they have time

When has Trubisky ever looked good?

[August]

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

They are... that is the point. Elite QBs... ala Brady, don't even need an Oline... traffic cones would suffice .... He is getting the ball out in less then 2 seconds... that is insane... Any garbage would hold a block for 1/2 a second... which is all he needs... 

Goff and Trubisky look good because they have time... but if they had Brady's line... they would look like Falk did.

QB’s need weapons but QB’s are supposed to also elevate the play of their team. Hence why they’re *franchise* quarterbacks. 
 

I don’t know what you’re talking about. 

[Grandy]

This sentiment is true to a certain degree. However no QB would play exceptional if the supporting cast was too bad. I dream of having Mahomes' surrounding talent.

[The Voice of Reason]

2 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

When has Trubisky ever looked good?

Fair point... I agree he is garbage... 

[#27TheDominator]

36 minutes ago, DRJETS said:

Sam does not control who he play for.  For instance Mahones has a TRUE offensive genius with a REAL track record unlike our own con man who made everyone here believed that he was behind Payton’s success.  But if you haven’t seen the 4 games so far including one by Darnolds to see how he had elevated his players around him when he is playing then there is nothing for you to see since your mind is already set.

Everyone here? 

32 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think his main point is that elite QBs can get by with JAGs and make JAGs look a lot better than they really are. 

First step is to get JAGs.  I define JAG as not special, an NFL replacement level player.  I am not sure that most of our offensive line and backup WR group reach that level.

[ChuckkieB]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

 

One does not make pre-excuses for a franchise QB. Sam with either pass the eye test or he will not. He looked pretty good against Buffalo all things considered before he got completely exhausted. His 2-pt conversion was the best play I've seen from a Jets QB since the Monday Night Miracle.

The putrid O line won't disappear simply because a better QB is at the helm.  I'm all for the notion that a better QB can get more out of this offense than Falk, but so far, the combination of a non-competitive O line and horrendous game planning and play calling give me little confidence in any kind of sustained success week to week.  Darnold will be able to avoid the rush more effectively by rolling out and /or scrambling and defenses will not stack the box on every play against him, but that doesn't make a crappy line disappear.  You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.  

[jgb]

24 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

The putrid O line won't disappear simply because a better QB is at the helm.  I'm all for the notion that a better QB can get more out of this offense than Falk, but so far, the combination of a non-competitive O line and horrendous game planning and play calling give me little confidence in any kind of sustained success week to week.  Darnold will be able to avoid the rush more effectively by rolling out and /or scrambling and defenses will not stack the box on every play against him, but that doesn't make a crappy line disappear.  You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.  

I'm asking for an eye-test passing, not pinball numbers.

[FireTheJohnsons]

Whats the point of this thread exactly? Trying to understand. I think everyone feels you should get an Elite QB if you can get one. 

How many elite QB's are there in the league at any one point in time? 5 maybe?

Teams have won SB's without elite QB's. Eli has 2 and was never Elite. Flacco was not Elite.  Look at Eli in the period between Plaxico and ODBJ, he was not so good from a numbers standpoint.

If you can get an elite guy, yeah, get them, if not, get one who you can win with. In either case, putting a good supporting cast around them is highly preferential. 

Not sure the point of this exercise

[Apache 51]

4 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

Whats the point of this thread exactly? Trying to understand. I think everyone feels you should get an Elite QB if you can get one. 

How many elite QB's are there in the league at any one point in time? 5 maybe?

Teams have won SB's without elite QB's. Eli has 2 and was never Elite. Flacco was not Elite.  Look at Eli in the period between Plaxico and ODBJ, he was not so good from a numbers standpoint.

If you can get an elite guy, yeah, get them, if not, get one who you can win with. In either case, putting a good supporting cast around them is highly preferential. 

Not sure the point of this exercise

Right.

[ChuckkieB]

It remains to be seen if Darnold will become a very good QB (I think he will), but every QB mentioned in this thread has something Darnold does not - a legitimate OL.  With just an average OL, Darnold will be able to move the sticks.  Hell, with last year's bad OL he moved the sticks, but the level of incompetence that we have witnessed so far this season makes me think that Darnold will have to be Superman to escape having have brains bashed in every week.   

[jgb]

22 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

Whats the point of this thread exactly? Trying to understand. I think everyone feels you should get an Elite QB if you can get one. 

How many elite QB's are there in the league at any one point in time? 5 maybe?

Teams have won SB's without elite QB's. Eli has 2 and was never Elite. Flacco was not Elite.  Look at Eli in the period between Plaxico and ODBJ, he was not so good from a numbers standpoint.

If you can get an elite guy, yeah, get them, if not, get one who you can win with. In either case, putting a good supporting cast around them is highly preferential. 

Not sure the point of this exercise

The point is elite QBs show they are elite even with supporting casts that would be considered bad with lesser QBs. Mahomes has turned a different JAG into a 100-yard receiver every week this season. These guys wouldn’t have a 100-yard game between them catching balls from 2/3rds of the starting QBs in the league. THAT’S what I mean by elite QBs make their own weapons.

If you need to excuse bad QB performance on his supporting cast, he is by definition not elite.

[GreenFish]

4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Can they make lineman too?

Probably. Remember when Brady came out of the game versus the Jets. All of a sudden our pass rush came alive. If a QB can process pre snap, it probably helps the OL a great deal. 

[Larz]

False 

rice made Montana and young hof QBs 

[derp]

The Chiefs have a surplus of explosive receivers. They stretch the defense vertically, create big chunk plays that allow them to move the ball down the field without needing to consistently hit on shorter patterns, and create space underneath. Plus Mahomes is absurd.

The Jets entered the season with one guy like that (Anderson). Maybe Smith gets there. Defenses don’t have to worry about getting beaten for big plays, except by Anderson. Account for him and play aggressive on the other guys.

Defenses will attack you unless you make them pay for it. Jets don’t have guys capable of making defenses pay. The Chiefs collect them.

[FireTheJohnsons]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

The point is elite QBs show they are elite even with supporting casts that would be considered bad with lesser QBs. Mahomes has turned a different JAG into a 100-yard receiver every week this season. These guys wouldn’t have a 100-yard game between them catching balls from 2/3rds of the starting QBs in the league. THAT’S what I mean by elite QBs make their own weapons.

If you need to excuse bad QB performance on his supporting cast, he is by definition not elite.

OK, great. I think we all hope we can get a top 5 QB someday. But its unlikely we will, so we should probably try to get as good a QB as we can, and then put a good supporting cast around him. If we have a good supporting cast, and we can get an elite guy, we have the ideal situation. 

The problem I see is less worrying about whether or not a guy is Elite, and more about whether the guy is good enough to build around. If you remove the elite guy from the equation, you need a good cast around them. Declaring every QB a bust and drafting a new one every other year until you find the elite guy is probably not the best strategy, particularly in NY, and maybe even more so with a fanbase that has been waiting for 342 years for a SB

[jgb]

 

 

11 minutes ago, Larz said:

False 

rice made Montana and young hof QBs 

Then all defenses would have to do is triple Rice every snap and Montana and Young would’ve been Matt Schaub with the Texans.

No, they were elite QBs.

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

OK, great. I think we all hope we can get a top 5 QB someday. But its unlikely we will, so we should probably try to get as good a QB as we can, and then put a good supporting cast around him. If we have a good supporting cast, and we can get an elite guy, we have the ideal situation. 

The problem I see is less worrying about whether or not a guy is Elite, and more about whether the guy is good enough to build around. If you remove the elite guy from the equation, you need a good cast around them. Declaring every QB a bust and drafting a new one every other year until you find the elite guy is probably not the best strategy, particularly in NY, and maybe even more so with a fanbase that has been waiting for 342 years for a SB

Yep, just not persuaded by the argument “well we don’t know if Sanchez/Geno/Darnold is [BLANK] because weaponz.”

You can tell by year two if a QB has it.