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maybe it's time to take a breath on gase

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New jets hire, universally regarded as being smart: “We’ve identified several areas of systemic and foundational malpractice in this franchise that hasn’t won anything for fifty years and we’re implementing a multi-year plan to fix those areas and provide for long-term sustainable success.”


Savvy Jets fan: “Just throw moar slant passes u dummy”

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1 hour ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Gase is the next bellichek.  Who knew?

Lol, this is as hysterical of a comparison as when I read some guy over at another message board comparing Todd Bowles to Bill Belichick. Both Bowles (Jets 2015-17) and Belichick (Browns 1991-93) had identical records of  20-28 at the conclusion of their first 3 seasons as a head coach. 

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7 minutes ago, jgb said:

They're just venting. Everyone knows the Johnson Brothers are not going to fire Gase until at earliest after the 2020 season, when they stop paying Bowles. 

Nonsense.  Everyone knows CJ or JD won't fire Gase THIS year because it would be stupid to do and shouldn't happen.  No one and where outside of this forum has even come close to contemplating this.  They're smart enough and know enough about the game to see what he's been up against.  Making it about money, pulling that out of nowhere without any reason is more smoke added to a ridiculous argument, as if he should be fired.  

This 

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14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

+Infinity

I am so incredibly sick and tired of arguments that boil down to "this one rare guy did this one rare thing in a totally different situation for a totally different organization with literally every other variable different.....so you should keep on with your sucky guy".

Geno Smith sucks?  Hey, Peyton Manning sucked  early too!  Because those are the same? :-k

Adam Gase (or Bowles, or whomever) sucks?  Hey, Bill Bellichek sucked at first too!  Because those are the same? :-k

It is literally the least logical or supported argument one could possibly make.  These two things being compared usually have nothing whatsoever to do with one another OTHER Than playing or working in the same job.  Nothing else would logically warrant suck a comparison or such a presumption that B could be like A.

If this idea worked, we would need to draft nothing but 6th round QB's and pair them with nothing but failed ex-Coaches, and definitely not judge them at all early on.  Bonkers.

Yet every year, especially here, we get threads making this very argument.  It's embarrassing.

JUST BECAUSE A THING IS POSSIBLE IN A TINY FRACTION OF CASES DOESN'T MAKE THAT THING LIKELY!!!!

If you don't understand that Belichick proves you can't win without talent, even he didn't as opposed because to any loser can become a Belichick this makes sense.

poblem is some of us understand the logic and don't go off on a long winded response twisting it into he ridiculous idea that anyone who sucks as a HC can become Belichick think they're right when they're dead wrong and then start criticizing people

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17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

+Infinity

I am so incredibly sick and tired of arguments that boil down to "this one rare guy did this one rare thing in a totally different situation for a totally different organization with literally every other variable different.....so you should keep on with your sucky guy".

Geno Smith sucks?  Hey, Peyton Manning sucked  early too!  Because those are the same? :-k

Adam Gase (or Bowles, or whomever) sucks?  Hey, Bill Bellichek sucked at first too!  Because those are the same? :-k

It is literally the least logical or supported argument one could possibly make.  These two things being compared usually have nothing whatsoever to do with one another OTHER Than playing or working in the same job.  Nothing else would logically warrant suck a comparison or such a presumption that B could be like A.

If this idea worked, we would need to draft nothing but 6th round QB's and pair them with nothing but failed ex-Coaches, and definitely not judge them at all early on.  Bonkers.

Yet every year, especially here, we get threads making this very argument.  It's embarrassing.

JUST BECAUSE A THING IS POSSIBLE IN A TINY FRACTION OF CASES DOESN'T MAKE THAT THING LIKELY!!!!

My personal favorite is the argument that good teams don't hire and fire their HCs and GMs often so we should keep what we have. Uh, maybe they are good because they made the right hiring choices in the first place, not because they don't have turnover. Talk about confusing correlation with causation.

16 minutes ago, SpankyJohnson said:

BB wouldn’t be able to win with this team under the same circumstances. This organization has been ran poorly for years and it’s going to take time to fix it right. There’s no magic wand that can turn this team into a Super Bowl contentender overnight. I’m not saying Gase and Douglas is or isn’t the answer but people are delusional if they think they can determine that after 4 games with the hand that was dealt. Be patient. Unfortunately it’s going to take more time than 1/4 of a season to get the real results. And also unfortunate is the fact that most fans have no patience. Lose one game and they want everyone fired. Let it play out. 

You're making a lot of sense but Jets fans have the patience of a river or a mountain. 

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1 minute ago, SR24 said:

We’re 0-4 with any HC. We just went through years of a rebuild to start a new rebuild it’s sad and it sucks but years of poor drafting and talent evaluation have left us with few stars and a ton of holes. Sam and Herndon are back which will help greatly but this team needs an entire Oline, it’s going to be hard to be competitive until the Oline is improved. This new regime needs time to undo what Mac did 

Don't we HAVE a mostly entire new O-line, an O-Line Gase himself had a hand in putting together and choosing to start?

Lets see:

Gase was hired on Jan. 11, 2019.

We signed Osemele, drafted Edoga, signed Khalil after that.  You're fooling yourself if you think Gase had no hand in those decisions, especially Khalil.  The decision of who to start is also made by Gase alone, he is the one playing Khalil over Harrison at current.

The entire O-line is playing materially worse than those same players have ever played before Adam Gase got here.  Osemele was an all-pro, remember.  Khalil may in fact be too old, but then why sign him?  Why play him over Harrison was was at least competent last year late (same as Darnold, whose better play mirrored Harrison's better play).  Shell was at least average last year, he's not this year.  Winters was always meh, but this year, dear lord he's been awful.

This isn't Macc's O-line.  This is Gase's O-line.  It's exactly this perennial deflection of accountability by Jets Fans that drive me nuts.  Gase was well known for mismanaging his O-line in Miami.  Now he is here doing the same thing so far.  But right, it's ALWAYS some other guys fault in Jets Fan land.   

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27 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Lol, this is as hysterical of a comparison as when I read some guy over at another message board comparing Todd Bowles to Bill Belichick. Both Bowles (Jets 2015-17) and Belichick (Browns 1991-93) had identical records of  20-28 at the conclusion of their first 3 seasons as a head coach. 

Probably why no one other than those twisting any narrative into anyone is the next Belichick are actually saying this

Theyre twisting words and use it as a comeback.  Cute

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"I’m not arguing that Gase has done a good job. He needs to solve the team’s offensive line problems. He should have been more conservative with his hope for Darnold to return last week. There are things he can do better. "
 
We hired an offensive coach who was not new to the league or the division to avoid these problems.
We hired an offensive coach who could elevate the offense despite talent issues.
The article sounds like we hired a college coach which we did not.  We have a veteran laden group of coaches all through the org.  There is no excuse for not being prepared and not doing things you need to do to win.
 
The complaining would be much less if the offense had a pulse at all and if we were losing close hard fought games.
 
 
 
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29 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Nonsense.  Everyone knows CJ or JD won't fire Gase THIS year because it would be stupid to do and shouldn't happen.  No one and where outside of this forum has even come close to contemplating this.  They're smart enough and know enough about the game to see what he's been up against.  Making it about money, pulling that out of nowhere without any reason is more smoke added to a ridiculous argument, as if he should be fired.  

This 

T’was a bit of snark, although we are actually both correct.

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2 hours ago, cbudiarjo said:

multiple years? how about give him one year? some want gase fired 3 days ago.

Luke Faulk is not even a good Division 1 College QB.  There was no opportunity to win any of the last 3 games.  Day One.

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1 hour ago, kmnj said:

the team has not been competitive at all and the terrible qb he has been saddled with was his hand picked guy that he brought in to not one but two teams

He brought him here, Falk, to be on the damn PS after he spent all last year on injured reserve with the Dolphins. It’s not like the guy had even taken a regular season NFL snap.  Geez

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19 minutes ago, SR24 said:

We’re 0-4 with any HC. We just went through years of a rebuild to start a new rebuild it’s sad and it sucks but years of poor drafting and talent evaluation have left us with few stars and a ton of holes. Sam and Herndon are back which will help greatly but this team needs an entire Oline, it’s going to be hard to be competitive until the Oline is improved. This new regime needs time to undo what Mac did 

and we had a GM who though OL was a minor concern for years.

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3 minutes ago, jgb said:

T’was a bit of snark, although we are actually both correct.

Was purposely snark, all of this is getting ti

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What happens if nothing changes Sunday?  What if the offense was as inept as it has been with or without Sam?  

Are we allowed to start to criticize a coach we have 3+ years of data on or no? 

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Just now, JiF said:

Jeremy Bates who the Jets found living in a tent off the appalachian trail ran 1000000x more competent offense. 

Seriously.

The article is talking as if this guy is a neophyte college coach coming to the pros like a kingsbury etc. who needs time to learn how to coach at this level.

That is a total non relevant excuse to me. 

 

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2 minutes ago, JiF said:

What happens if nothing changes Sunday?  What if the offense was as inept as it has been with or without Sam?  

Are we allowed to start to criticize a coach we have 3+ years of data on or no? 

Well when we call the Bills game inept, not giving the Bills credit what's the point?  That D did the same, more actually against the Pats.  And that was with a Darnold who was sick.  But F it, who cares, it's just an excuse. 

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12 minutes ago, jack48 said:

Luke Faulk is not even a good Division 1 College QB.  There was no opportunity to win any of the last 3 games.  Day One.

Well, we can all be glad that excuse is now off the table.

We have Darnold back now.  A QB who all of us like and believe in.  A QB many here at JN think is already elite in many ways.

Surely the Gase Offense can be productive with Darnold + Bell + Herndon back + Crowder and Anderson, can't it?

Surely Gase can scheme that much talent to work around the weak O-line he helped put together.  Right?

I'm not even asking for top 10.  How about starting with "better than 32nd in the NFL"?

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9 minutes ago, JiF said:

Jeremy Bates who the Jets found living in a tent off the appalachian trail ran 1000000x more competent offense. 

And everyone who understands what they're watching would expect Bates offense to hum along unevfected by Falk too.

More of the same

 

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Well when we call the Bills game inept, not giving the Bills credit what's the point?  That D did the same, more actually against the Pats.  And that was with a Darnold who was sick.  But F it, who cares, it's just an excuse. 

Is this english?  lol

 

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1 minute ago, JiF said:

Is this english?  lol

 

Please don't quote him.  Single best use of the ignore feature in my lifetime on Jets Forums tbqh.  

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2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And everyone who understands what they're watching would expect Bates offense to hum along unevfected by Falk too.

More of the same

 

Sam Darnold, Trevor Siemain, Luke Falk - it's all been the same trash.  Guess what? Miami was no different.  Why is everyone acting like Luke Falk has started more than 2 games and this is the first offense Gase has run? 

Nobody expected humming along but competence?  Is that asking too much?  I dont think you understand how low my expectations are and Gase cant even get us there.  At one point last game, the Jets were 0-42 steak on 3rd down conversions.....bro, you cant put that all on your QB.  lol

 

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41 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Don't we HAVE a mostly entire new O-line, an O-Line Gase himself had a hand in putting together and choosing to start?

Lets see:

Gase was hired on Jan. 11, 2019.

We signed Osemele, drafted Edoga, signed Khalil after that.  You're fooling yourself if you think Gase had no hand in those decisions, especially Khalil.  The decision of who to start is also made by Gase alone, he is the one playing Khalil over Harrison at current.

The entire O-line is playing materially worse than those same players have ever played before Adam Gase got here.  Osemele was an all-pro, remember.  Khalil may in fact be too old, but then why sign him?  Why play him over Harrison was was at least competent last year late (same as Darnold, whose better play mirrored Harrison's better play).  Shell was at least average last year, he's not this year.  Winters was always meh, but this year, dear lord he's been awful.

This isn't Macc's O-line.  This is Gase's O-line.  It's exactly this perennial deflection of accountability by Jets Fans that drive me nuts.  Gase was well known for mismanaging his O-line in Miami.  Now he is here doing the same thing so far.  But right, it's ALWAYS some other guys fault in Jets Fan land.   

Yes we should fire Gase because he didn’t rebuild the Oline in one offseason with 2 different GMs and a draft he apparently didn’t have much say in (dude literally left the war room) Our offense has been terrible and I agree Gase hasn’t looked great idk why Kalil is still playing I’m with you there  but I’m saving my judgement for when he gets Sam back if he doesn’t improve after this then I’ll entertain a conversation about making our 2nd year qb learn his 3rd new offense in his 3rd year 

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37 minutes ago, JiF said:

What happens if nothing changes Sunday?  What if the offense was as inept as it has been with or without Sam?  

Are we allowed to start to criticize a coach we have 3+ years of data on or no? 

You're not allowed to criticize when he is the HC. Once he is fired, then you're not allowed to bring up irrelevant past employees because real fans look toward the future.

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4 minutes ago, SR24 said:

Yes we should fire Gase because he didn’t rebuild the Oline in one offseason with 2 different GMs and a draft he apparently didn’t have much say in (dude literally left the war room) Our offense has been terrible and I agree Gase hasn’t looked great but I’m saving my judgement for when he gets Sam back if he doesn’t improve after this then I’ll entertain a conversation about making our 2nd year qb learn his 3rd new offense in his 3rd year 

Also, Frank Pollack is a well-respected OL coach, it's not like we have a first-year newb coaching them -- sadly we've seen worse case scenario with the OL as KO and Kalil are essentially done, and Beachum, Winters, Shell are who we thought they were. The worst part to me is Shell because I really thought we had a solid contributor in him.  

It's been said many times but the negligence with drafting OL has been criminal. Would love nothing more than a Brick-Mangold type investment in the next draft. Nothing else matters. 

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37 minutes ago, JiF said:

Is this english?  lol

 

Pretty easy to understand and not the point

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36 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Please don't quote him.  Single best use of the ignore feature in my lifetime on Jets Forums tbqh.  

Why don’t you stfu, just write posts that make little sense instead of trying to recruit people into the Nancy zone that you’re in.  Putting people smarter than you on ignore because you’re sensitive to someone who doesn’t agree with your nonsense 

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

This isnt about wins and losses.  This team sucks and was never winning anything.  A +.500 season would be considered a huge success.  I had us in the 6-7 win range but I thought it would be a season of shootouts.  The people talking playoffs with this team were delusional and it was never about that, it was about the progression of our offense and Sam Darnold.  The hate for Gase isnt about being 0-4, it's all about hiring a failed coach with a terrible offense but called an offensive guru.  And now he's currently running the worst offensive unit I've ever seen in the history of watching Football, Qb be damned.  They cant do a single thing right.  They're inept at literally every single aspect of playing offense.  This was no different when Sam started.   2 TD's in 4 games and 1 was gift wrapped in garbage time.  That's what this is about, wins and losses be damned.  Nobody would be upset at 0-4 with a competent looking offense.  People want him fired because the offense is trash and that's supposedly his speciality despite years of incompetence. 

 

 

This sums it up for me as well

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38 minutes ago, JiF said:

Sam Darnold, Trevor Siemain, Luke Falk - it's all been the same trash.  Guess what? Miami was no different.  Why is everyone acting like Luke Falk has started more than 2 games and this is the first offense Gase has run? 

Nobody expected humming along but competence?  Is that asking too much?  I dont think you understand how low my expectations are and Gase cant even get us there.  At one point last game, the Jets were 0-42 steak on 3rd down conversions.....bro, you cant put that all on your QB.  lol

 

If you didn’t see a difference between the 3 QBs im sorry for you and there’s no point to reading anything else.  It not only wrong it doesn’t give credit to the Bills D or the fact that Darnold had to be effected by the mono he was dealing with.  
 

iAgain the narrative that the offenses issues are a coaching issue, thyroid someone else would have fixed the issues is so simplistic that it’s funny

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The problem is quite simply that Gase was a failure of a first-time head coach, and then was given absolutely no time to learn or grow in any way whatsoever.  It was the reason I absolutely despised this hire back in January, and is holding true today. 

Even if we forget the ridiculous concept of comparing him (or anyone career-wise) to Belichick, they are still totally different situations.  The one thing Gase never had, which every first time failure and second time success of a head coach has had before him, is any opportunity to step back and learn from all of their failures, as opposed to being inexplicably rewarded for them (in BB's case, it was 4 years between HC jobs).

The problem is that none of these are new issues, but rather a continuation of the same constant failures that have followed him throughout his entire career when he didn't have Peyton Manning by his side.

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9 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Pretty easy to understand and not the point

I've read it multiple times, no clue what you're trying to say.  Are you saying that scoring 8 points while being gifted 4 turnovers and the D still outscored you on the day is excusable display of incompetence because Darnold was 85% and the Bills D is good?  

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Gase is breaking the trend of recent Jets coaches, who did well their first year, then sucked badly after.  Mangini (10-6 in 2006), Rex (did well his first two years, then fell off a cliff), Bowles (10-6 in 2015).

Maybe Gase will flip that script. Give him a chance.

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33 minutes ago, SR24 said:

Yes we should fire Gase

I haven't neither asked for nor suggested firing Gase.  

I am evaluating Gase on what he has done so far.  And I will continue to do so.  

33 minutes ago, SR24 said:

....because he didn’t rebuild the Oline in one offseason with 2 different GMs and a draft he apparently didn’t have much say in (dude literally left the war room)

Except as noted, we did "rebuild" the line, and Gase was here for every step of that Rebuild.  We can speculate on how much control he had before Macc was fired, yes.  There is no debate how much control he had after that point or in who he chooses to start.  

33 minutes ago, SR24 said:

Our offense has been terrible and I agree Gase hasn’t looked great idk why Kalil is still playing I’m with you there

Nice to see we can find an area of agreement.

33 minutes ago, SR24 said:

....but I’m saving my judgement....

Let me be clear, every single action taken by any coach or player can and should be evaluated.  There is no such thing as delayed evaluation.

"Judgement", on the other hand, is a very different thing.  Judgement aims to make yay/nay calls on continued employment.

I am evaluating Gase.  I am not judging Gase.  Judgement (from me, in my opinion) will come at seasons end.

33 minutes ago, SR24 said:

for when he gets Sam back if he doesn’t improve after this then I’ll entertain a conversation about making our 2nd year qb learn his 3rd new offense in his 3rd year 

Making Darnold learn a 3rd system may be a better option that wasting Darnold's rookie contract under an ineffective Coach with a career of nothing but bottom 10 ranked Offenses as a Head Coach.  That's a call for the offseason.

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