This is why you don't draft safeties with top 10 picks

[Jet Nut]

3 minutes ago, TNJet said:

His PI that damn near lost the game was a beauty. Maye had a near pick too the play before.

Do you think it was PI?  I don’t. 

And that negates the play to break up the game tying 2 pt conversion how exactly?  
 

 

[prime21]

7 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

I know no one will believe this, but I'm not trying to kill Adams. I've never said he's a bad player. He isn't. He's a very good safety.

However at the time, we had no offense to speak of, mainly due to the putrid QB play we had for years. So when you're picking at #6, and you have a QB who gutted a historically good defense in college twice, and another with freakish arm talent staring you in the face, you don't take safety. I don't care if he's Ed Reed, Ronnie Lott, and Sean Taylor rolled into one (which Jamal isn't), you don't overlook the glaring need at the most important position for a safety....any safety.

Watson and Mahomes were not a top 6 pick.  Mac The genius would have had to trade back and that wasn't happening with him.

 

YES, today they are worthy of 1 and 2 but back then they weren't.  If they were then the Jets would have grabbed one or some team would have moved up 

[Jetsfan80]

Moving Adams would be a huge mistake.

 

Period.  

He’s as good a player as you would expect to get at that spot and we act like you snap your fingers and are guaranteed to get equal value from the 14 or whatever pick as we got at 6.  How Jets like would that move be.

Not a GM in the NFL who trades Adams today

 

 

We have 10 wins since Jamal was drafted. Today was the first day he seriously impacted one of those wins.

 

No, we can’t get “equal” value for where we originally took him. and that’s of course because he never should have been the 6th pick in the first place. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take the max of what you CAN get. Douglas didn’t draft Adams and can’t afford to hold out hope we’d get a top 10 pick back just because Macc made that bad pick in the first place.

 

Did you watch the OL today? Do you not see how much greater importance there needs to be in protecting our most valuable asset? It’s worth taking less than stellar compensation for the likes of Adams and Leo. We need 5 new starting OL. 5!

[sourceworx]

8 hours ago, prime21 said:

Watson and Mahomes were not a top 6 pick.  Mac The genius would have had to trade back and that wasn't happening with him.

This is the mentality Mac had as GM. Going BPA on Mel Kiper's board and completely ignoring that some positions carry a higher weighted value than others. That's how you end up with Leonard Williams and Darron Lee.

Nothing in this league is more valuable than a QB. Not a damn thing. And nothing illustrated that better than the Jets did yesterday. For weeks they've been pure trash with Luke Falk at QB. Then Sam returns and suddenly they're a completely different team. Only a QB can change your team's dynamic like that. We had Jamal this entire time while Sam was out. Where did it get us?

That's why a good QB is more valuable than a great safety. When your QBs are Josh McCown and Christian Hackenberg, you take Watson or Mahomes (and yes I was a proponent of taking Mahomes that year). You don't try to get cute and trade back. You take one of them at #6, and let the draftniks make fools of themselves as they bash you for not taking that great safety or defensive tackle that was sitting there to be had. 

[ZachEY]

10 hours ago, sourceworx said:

I know no one will believe this, but I'm not trying to kill Adams. I've never said he's a bad player. He isn't. He's a very good safety.

However at the time, we had no offense to speak of, mainly due to the putrid QB play we had for years. So when you're picking at #6, and you have a QB who gutted a historically good defense in college twice, and another with freakish arm talent staring you in the face, you don't take safety. I don't care if he's Ed Reed, Ronnie Lott, and Sean Taylor rolled into one (which Jamal isn't), you don't overlook the glaring need at the most important position for a safety....any safety.

It was a terrible decision, but today was literally the 1st time I thought he, at least, lived up to his draft position.  The ship has long since sailed on it being the wrong pick over Mahommes/Watson.

[The Crusher]

11 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Not gonna happen you don't trade your best defensive player. 

Nobody suggested trading CJ Mosley Joe. 

[Green DNA]

In Adams I see a guy that gives 100% on every play as opposed to a number of other players on this team.  He was overdrafted but whose fault is that?  Not his.  Only Jets fans could be unhappy with a player that shows up to play every single week.  Of all the problems with this team, he is not one of them.  

[FireTheJohnsons]

IMO, we didn’t draft Adams over Mahomes, but we did draft him over Watson. Outside of a handful of people, the majority of analyst and fans alike felt Mahomes was far too risky. Huge upside, huge downside, and after Hackenberg debacle we needed a higher floor. Huge kudos to Reid and KC for taking him and developing him into what he seems to have become. But let’s not revise history either. The odds of Mahomes being even remotely what he is today with two years of Bowles and zero talent around him Is slim to none. Not saying he wouldn’t be good, but he wouldn’t be putting up Madden numbers either.

Watson on the other hand has been excellent since coming into the league. That said, I’ve seen many analyst say he is a one read QB. He also has the best WR in the NFL who gets great separation constantly, draws double teams consistently. And Hopkins numbers are largely the same before Watson as with him. If Watson goes on to be a true franchise QB, top 5 every year, it will have been a colossal mistake. If not, and Darnold does become that, IMO it was the right move. 
 

no matter what, none of it is Adams fault, and doesn’t make him suck either.

[Jet Nut]

10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

We have 10 wins since Jamal was drafted. Today was the first day he seriously impacted one of those wins.

 

No, we can’t get “equal” value for where we originally took him. and that’s of course because he never should have been the 6th pick in the first place. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take the max of what you CAN get. Douglas didn’t draft Adams and can’t afford to hold out hope we’d get a top 10 pick back just because Macc made that bad pick in the first place.

 

Did you watch the OL today? Do you not see how much greater importance there needs to be in protecting our most valuable asset? It’s worth taking less than stellar compensation for the likes of Adams and Leo. We need 5 new starting OL. 5!

ANd blaming a good player for a lack of talent or coaching on the Jets is wrong.

Nothing about Jamal says picking him at 6 was wrong.  Not in the first place or any place.  Hes a pro bowl player who is damn good.  

We need OL help, yes, I saw the game.  I also saw that they were 100% better with Darnold, exactly what I thought and said the last 4 weeks.  We'll survive until JD replenishes the OL with more talented players via the draft and maybe FA.  

Has nothing to do with Adams.  I'm not trading away a dynamic player for the chance to maybe find a player for the offense at 14 or whatever.

[RutgersJetFan]

18 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

It was a terrible decision, but today was literally the 1st time I thought he, at least, lived up to his draft position.  The ship has long since sailed on it being the wrong pick over Mahommes/Watson.

No, the ship is trying to sail. The problem is every time Adams so much as blows an impressive snot rocket on the sideline you get three to six threads from actual grown adult males along the lines of “Lol take that hateeerrrz.” And we gotta do this all over again. 

[greenwichjetfan]

Why is it so hard to believe that football is a complimentary game? You need a QB, but you also need everyone else. Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers...the Mount Rushmore of 2000s. None of them have a super bowl ring that didn’t come with a top 10 scoring defense. 
 

Jamal was hands down the wrong pick when we took him. That’s on Macc, and Macc is long gone. Meanwhile, JA has 100% lived up to being a star. And Sam has proven that he’s fully capable of making the most with the receivers he has at his disposal, so the best thing they can do for Sam right now aside from providing him an OL is to give him a strong defense. Trading away Jamal for anything less than a haul hurts Sam, and as we know, no one is going to give up a haul for a safety.

[Sonny Werblin]

8 minutes ago, Green DNA said:

In Adams I see a guy that gives 100% on every play as opposed to a number of other players on this team.  He was overdrafted but whose fault is that?  Not his.  Only Jets fans could be unhappy with a player that shows up to play every single week.  Of all the problems with this team, he is not one of them.  

He not only plays hard, he's smart. Both his coaches and opposing coaches laud his ability to read plays. On top of that, not only does he want to be the best player he can be and is willing to put in the work necessary, he would do anything to help his team win. 

Now I see, why in the world would we want a player like that on the team. He is very un-Jet-like. 

[Rhg1084]

Say what you want about when Adams was drafted but right now that Maye and Adams combination is looking really good. Those guys cause mayhem every week. 

[playtowinthegame]

12 hours ago, sourceworx said:

No QB for weeks, and the needle didn't move at all because of Jamal Adams. Sam comes back, and the entire dynamic of the team changes. Suddenly the O-line, receivers, backs and tight ends are better. That is why you only use first round picks on QBs, guys who protect QBs, or guys who harass QBs. You don't waste your time with safeties, defensive tackles, or middle linebackers. You get those guys in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds.

 

[T0mShane]

If the Jets had a passable OL yesterday, they’re able to pound the ball in the second half and they win the game by three TDs. You really wouldn’t trade Jamal Adams for a mid-first pick and use that to draft OL? Even though Dak Prescott—same as Josh Allen did—was able to drive the field for multiple TDs at will against this Jamal Adams defense when he needed to? 

[nycdan]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

If the Jets had a passable OL yesterday, they’re able to pound the ball in the second half and they win the game by three TDs. You really wouldn’t trade Jamal Adams for a mid-first pick and use that to draft OL? Even though Dak Prescott—same as Josh Allen did—was able to drive the field for multiple TDs at will against this Jamal Adams defense when he needed to? 

• Jonathon Cooper
• Chance Warmack
• Robert Gallery

The list of "stone-cold, can't miss" OL draft picks is endless.

If I didn't have a QB, I would trade almost anyone at any position to help get one.  But now that we have one, I would not trade an all-pro level player, even at Safety, to roll the dice.  We have a 1st round pick.  We have salary cap.  We have a GM who appears willing to make player-for-player trades.  What we never had was a GM who was willing to invest in OLine with anything other than yesterday's leftovers.  Let's see if Douglas can make something good happen that way before we unload a guy who beat the 'draft dice' odds for a chance to roll them again.

[JetFaninMI]

12 hours ago, chirorob said:

Darnold made a great hit to stop that 2 point conversion 

Yeah and Adams made a great throw on that bomb to Anderson. See it works both ways. While the timing is bad the Author of this thread is correct.

[RutgersJetFan]

20 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

If the Jets had a passable OL yesterday, they’re able to pound the ball in the second half and they win the game by three TDs. You really wouldn’t trade Jamal Adams for a mid-first pick and use that to draft OL? Even though Dak Prescott—same as Josh Allen did—was able to drive the field for multiple TDs at will against this Jamal Adams defense when he needed to? 

YOU CLEARLY DONT UNDERSTAND THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF A SAFETY IN THE MODERN NFL MR STUPIDPANTS

[ZachEY]

38 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

No, the ship is trying to sail. The problem is every time Adams so much as blows an impressive snot rocket on the sideline you get three to six threads from actual grown adult males along the lines of “Lol take that hateeerrrz.” And we gotta do this all over again. 

Pac’s always gonna Pac.  Do we really need to wait on a unanimous decision to call this one?

[PepPep]

13 hours ago, sourceworx said:

No QB for weeks, and the needle didn't move at all because of Jamal Adams. Sam comes back, and the entire dynamic of the team changes. Suddenly the O-line, receivers, backs and tight ends are better. That is why you only use first round picks on QBs, guys who protect QBs, or guys who harass QBs. You don't waste your time with safeties, defensive tackles, or middle linebackers. You get those guys in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds.

 

Dude, but you also didn't see what this team is like with Jamal out. I mean clearly having your QB out has a much bigger impact, everyone knows that, but if we had Rontez Miles starting at safety instead of Adams I guarantee you that would hurt our secondary AND run game and this defense would be a lot worse than it is right now and we would have lost this game. 

[genot]

Let's trade away our good players in hopes of finding other good players in the draft. Good way to recruit free agents. Good way to build team chemistry, good way to make other players want to bolt.. the JN philosophy on building a winner. But, of course, some JN, posters know so much more than people who've coached and actually played in the league for years.

[Jetsfan80]

52 minutes ago, Green DNA said:

In Adams I see a guy that gives 100% on every play as opposed to a number of other players on this team.  He was overdrafted but whose fault is that?  Not his.  Only Jets fans could be unhappy with a player that shows up to play every single week.  Of all the problems with this team, he is not one of them.  

You can flip that to say only Jets fans are happy with top picks who only end up "good" rather than great.

And to put it another way, no he's not a "problem" for this team.  But yesterday was the ONLY day in his career to this point where he was a solution.  That is why I am unhappy with Jamal's career accomplishments thus far and wonder why people feel the need to defend him all the time.  He can't just be a guy who "isn't a problem".  

[nycdan]

13 hours ago, sourceworx said:

No QB for weeks, and the needle didn't move at all because of Jamal Adams. Sam comes back, and the entire dynamic of the team changes. Suddenly the O-line, receivers, backs and tight ends are better. That is why you only use first round picks on QBs, guys who protect QBs, or guys who harass QBs. You don't waste your time with safeties, defensive tackles, or middle linebackers. You get those guys in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds.

 

Did you happen to catch that 'game-on-the-line' 2pt Conversion play yesterday?  

Tell me who it was who harassed Prescott into throwing the ball at the dirt?  And now that Maye is healthy and can do more in coverage, you may see Adams harassing the QB even more often than he has. 

Your bolded statment is fine.  The mistake was in putting position players into traditional boxes.  That's changed.  There aren't a lot of Aaron Donalds or Ray Lewis type players in the league, but there are some and they are worth every penny.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, genot said:

Let's trade away our good players in hopes of finding other good players in the draft. Good way to recruit free agents. Good way to build team chemistry, good way to make other players want to bolt.. the JN philosophy on building a winner. But, of course, some JN, posters know so much more than people who've coached and actually played in the league for years.

1) Successful teams constantly need to be bringing in young, cheap talent via the draft.  With a new GM in town, he needs picks and a lot of them to fix our many issues.

2) Free agents aren't coming here regardless.  And why do we want to build a team of mercenaries anyways?  That literally has never worked in the history of the NFL.  

3) Who's "bolting" if we trade Jamal Adams?  They understand this is a business.  

4) We definitely know more than some of the regimes we've had here in the past.  There's not one argument to be made that Macc was smarter than the draft experts we have around here.  

5) It's already been reported the Jets will be "sellers" at the trade deadline.  Now, maybe that isn't true.  And maybe yesterday's win will change that somewhat.  But neither you nor I know what Douglas is thinking about doing.  We do know he has a lot of work to do, especially on the Offensive Line.  If Douglas is all about giving Darnold the tools to succeed, defensive players who really don't impact the W/L column much certainly become expendable when it comes to keeping our 22-year old QB upright.  

6) You rip on people for thinking they "know better" than the people in charge.  Yet you constantly make posts like these with a condescending attitude as if you know what you're talking about either.  This is a message board for discussion.  None of us are Joe Douglas.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, nycdan said:

There aren't a lot of Aaron Donalds or Ray Lewis type players in the league, but there are some and they are worth every penny.  

Are you suggesting Adams is one of these types of players? 

And if so, you do realize Jamal will likely command somewhere in the neighborhood of about $14M per year in free agency, right?  I'd like to think "every penny" of that needs to go towards the offense, particularly the OL.  

[nycdan]

Apparently, this is the only place on the planet where Adams' value is questioned.  When you look around the league, they don't seem to have any doubts.

https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/scout-s-eye-how-to-game-plan-for-jamal-adams

 

Quote

 

Weapon: S Jamal Adams

If there is a player on this Jets roster who can wreck your game plan -- Jamal Adams would be that guy.

There is nothing he can’t do on a football field. He physically takes on the run. He’s a fierce tackler that punishes the ball carrier. He’s one of the great finishers in the league. Jets defensive coordinator Gregg Williams will put him in coverage without worry. Adams has the skill to carry running backs or tight ends with ease. The more the staff puts on his plate, the better he responds.

You can tell opposing offenses game plan not to go in his direction. Opponents will attempt to attack other areas instead of the ones he’s focusing on.

I will be interested to see how Williams uses him in this matchup. Williams likes to blitz, which means he will lock his guys up in man coverage across the board. Williams could choose to put Adams on Ezekiel Elliott if he doesn’t feel like Jason Witten can hurt him in the field -- but then he may match him up on Witten in the red zone.

Williams also might be concerned with what he saw from Elliott in the Packers game, where he was making plays in the passing game, and figure out a way to match Adams up there. Regardless what Williams’ plan is, just know that Jamal Adams is going to be in the middle of the action due to his versatility and playmaking ability. He’s a special player.

 

 

[nycdan]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Are you suggesting Adams is one of these types of players? 

And if so, you do realize Jamal will likely command somewhere in the neighborhood of about $14M per year in free agency, right?  I'd like to think "every penny" of that needs to go towards the offense, particularly the OL.  

I'm breaking down Source's original argument that only DEs and OLBs can 'harass' the quarterback.  That's not true.  It never really was but even less so now.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, nycdan said:

I'm breaking down Source's original argument that only DEs and OLBs can 'harass' the quarterback.  That's not true.  It never really was but even less so now.

Dak had a lot of time back there most of the day.  If we want to convert Adams into a pass-rusher, great.  That fills a need.  But his freelancing around the LOS puts a lot of strain on the rest of the secondary (who quietly played well yesterday, albeit against Dallas' "B" receivers).

[JustInFudge]

12 hours ago, T0mShane said:

He lost to DeShaun Watson.

You see, this is what Pac does.  Everyone sucks until they dont and is the reason the Jets really arent that bad becaue they passed on him despite it being an obvious mistake.  When Watson was breaking records and people were like; great we took a SS over the next best QB...Pac was all like, yeah but look at his W/L record and he got injured.  He sucks.  Jamal is better. 

Kyle Shannahan was his favorite toy to use to show that the young an upcoming offensive coaches arent all it's cracked up to be.  Now?  Silence.

Mahomes lost back to back games vs. good teams while throwing 600 yards and 4 TDs and now the league has figured him out.

#Paclogic

[Green DNA]

16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You can flip that to say only Jets fans are happy with top picks who only end up "good" rather than great.

And to put it another way, no he's not a "problem" for this team.  But yesterday was the ONLY day in his career to this point where he was a solution.  That is why I am unhappy with Jamal's career accomplishments thus far and wonder why people feel the need to defend him all the time.  He can't just be a guy who "isn't a problem".  

You are getting caught up with the word "problem", but a number of posters seem to think he is a problem.  He is a solid player and in the plethora of shows doing NFL analysis on TV and the radio I hear nothing but praise for what he brings to the table.  Sure he was overdrafted, sure he plays a non-impact position, but I'm sure fans of most teams in the league wouldn't mind having him on their team.  Not at the expense of a QB, not at the expense of a pass rusher, but as a player who plays strong at the LOS and is a solid run stuffer.  On a team with a shortage of talent, I'm not sure what benefit there is to dumping one of the best young players on the team. 

[T0mShane]

23 minutes ago, nycdan said:

If there is a player on this Jets roster who can wreck your game plan -- Jamal Adams would be that guy.

Well, you know really smart analysis is going to follow this not-at-all hyperbolic opener.

[Bugg]

39 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Dude, but you also didn't see what this team is like with Jamal out. I mean clearly having your QB out has a much bigger impact, everyone knows that, but if we had Rontez Miles starting at safety instead of Adams I guarantee you that would hurt our secondary AND run game and this defense would be a lot worse than it is right now and we would have lost this game. 

With all due respect, they won because they schemed well for a safety blitz on a 2 point conversion. Granted the penalties were off the charts, but the defense over the last 2 Dallas drives did not make any big plays spare the one sack(which was negated by the ridiculous penalty on the very next play). Again, Adams is a nice player, but there was a point over those 2 drives SOMEBODY on the Jets defense could've stepped up and prevented things from coming down to that one play. That did not happen. 

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, Green DNA said:

You are getting caught up with the word "problem", but a number of posters seem to think he is a problem.  He is a solid player and in the plethora of shows doing NFL analysis on TV and the radio I hear nothing but praise for what he brings to the table.  Sure he was overdrafted, sure he plays a non-impact position, but I'm sure fans of most teams in the league wouldn't mind having him on their team.  Not at the expense of a QB, not at the expense of a pass rusher, but as a player who plays strong at the LOS and is a solid run stuffer.  On a team with a shortage of talent, I'm not sure what benefit there is to dumping one of the best young players on the team. 

 

It is exactly because of our shortage of talent, especially at impact positions, why its not just a good idea to trade Jamal Adams, it's practically imperative to do so.  

You just explained earlier in that post that the QB (and extrapolating here, but protecting said QB) and pass rush are more important spots.  We need to trade away an asset that is NOT those things in order to help GET those things.  

The biggest reason to trade Jamal Adams?  We cannot afford to pay $14M a year (the  going rate for a top Safety) on a luxury position when our OL is one of the worst in the game and we don't have a pass rush or a CB1.  That money is much better spent elsewhere.

We're going to need to make a decision on Jamal by the time his 5th year option comes around.  One way or another, something has to give.  Either you're going "all in" on a Box Safety who really doesn't impact the game all that much, or you have to trade him.  And the longer you wait to trade him, the less appealing he becomes for teams who would be interested in him.  By that point you're just letting him walk for a 3rd round compensatory pick (maybe), OR paying him $14M a year.  Neither of those should be options if our GM is worth his salt.  

[Jetsfan80]

Also, I get that our upcoming schedule isn't scary when it comes to opposing WR's our secondary will be facing.  And this defense does deserve a ton of credit for winning against a quality opponent yesterday.  But we're not going to be facing the likes of Tavon Austin and Cedrick Wilson every week. 

This victory lap we're throwing for Jamal will be short-lived if/when we start giving up chunk yardage to real receivers because he's free-lancing around the LOS without us getting pressure on the QB.  

[Smashmouth]

13 hours ago, sourceworx said:

No QB for weeks, and the needle didn't move at all because of Jamal Adams. Sam comes back, and the entire dynamic of the team changes. Suddenly the O-line, receivers, backs and tight ends are better. That is why you only use first round picks on QBs, guys who protect QBs, or guys who harass QBs. You don't waste your time with safeties, defensive tackles, or middle linebackers. You get those guys in the third, fourth, and fifth rounds.

 

And said Safety was the guy who disrupted the QB on the most important play of the game .