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Barry McCockinner

Jamal Adams Draft Position

Do You Give A Flying F What Position Adams Was Drafted?  

104 members have voted

  1. 1. Do You Give A Flying F What Position Adams Was Drafted?

    • Yes - It is important to remind everyone every time Adams is mentioned.
      21
    • No - What's done is done and I like it when the Jets have good players.
      83


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3 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

His next contract negotiation should have zero to do with his draft position as far as the Jets are concerned. 

Yet that's not how any of this works.  Top Safety money is about $14M a year.  He'll want that or he'll walk.  And in no universe should we pay a Safety that amount when we need a brand new OL, 1-2 EDGE rushers, a CB1 and at least one more WR1/WR2.  

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4 minutes ago, LockeJET said:

The real question should be, what if Marcus Maye continues to emerge and you can only sign one?

Considering we're 10-27 with this amazing Safety duo, I'd say....re-sign neither.  

If I HAD to choose 1, I take Maye, since he won't command $14M+ per season.  

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1 minute ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

Reading comprehension is very powerful.... The Jets should offer him what they think he is worth moving forward, and nothing more. What he is worth has zero to do with where he was drafted. If the Jets deem him to be worth 12m thats what they should offer, if its 10m, thats what they should offer.  Its exactly how it should work, and does work with good teams. Bart Scott was an UDFA I believe, or at least a late round pick. He got a huge contract, because of his value, not based on where he was or wasnt drafted......

Cool.  Jamal will turn that down, and then we get nothing out of him but maybe a compensatory pick.  Or he'll accept it and we're stuck paying a Box Safety/LB $10-$12M per year.  That money is best used elsewhere.  

I prefer to trade him ahead of time so we can fill needs that aren't luxury positions.  

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Just now, FireTheJohnsons said:

His draft slot has absolutely zero to do with his value moving forward. Any GM that pays out a contract based on draft slot will not be a GM for very long. Hopefully Douglas is not that type of GM.

You're misunderstanding.  It's what JAMAL perceives his value to be, not the GM, that's in question here.

Jamal was taken # 6 overall, and the top Safeties all make $14M per or more.  He and his agent will view himself in that category.  His draft position plays at least a small role because he entered the league with a high pedigree, and nothing in his mind has reduced his value to this point.  

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Just now, FireTheJohnsons said:

yeah, that is whats going to happen for sure, and it will have zero to do with his draft slot, and everything to do with what some team will pay for him..

Indeed, that is what they should do the second they sense the contract negotiations are leaving a big gap between his perceived value, and the Jets perceived value. This isnt rocket science, and has nothing to do with draft slot.

It's indeed not rocket science, yet somehow you're misunderstanding the points being made by multiple people and just repeating the same thing over and over.  

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

Thats a big part of it, but another big part is a guy like Jones or Synder who will willing overpay because he's Presmal 

lol that would be great if Snyder signed Adams.  Between him and Landon Collins they'd be spending $28M per year on Safeties.  

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5 minutes ago, Stark said:

I wanted to draft Mahomes at 6. I don't sit here and bitch about it, we have Sam and I am happy with that. Move along

I'm happy with Sam too.  Not as happy as I'd be with Mahomes, but happy all the same.  I'll "move along" as soon as people stop getting heavily triggered whenever I have the audacity to suggest we should trade the great Jamal Adams.  

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6 minutes ago, SR24 said:

For a fan base that's suffered through years of talentless rosters and missed draft picks I don't understand the hate Jamal gets all the time

It's been explained numerous times.  Your inability to understand it is not our fault.  

I've also complained about guys like Leo, Polite, Darron Lee, etc. profusely.  So I also don't understand why people think we're laying into Adams alone.  

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3 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

A good gm finds a way to keep their good players.

* With positional importance weighed into the equation.  

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1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

All true. But it's a sunk cost. We have Adams and he's a border line all-pro player. Do we need to whine about what could have been every time he does something good? 

 

Nope.  But do Jamal fanboys need to yell "SUCK IT HATERS" every time he, you know, does his job?  That was the purpose of this thread, no?

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4 minutes ago, nycdan said:

You didn't finish the sentence.

Mahomes plus the extra 3 second rounders PLUS more years of Macc and Bowles leading us nowhere.

Yes, Mahomes plus the picks would have been amazing but Todd Bowles is not Andy Reid and I suspect we would be mediocre at best even had we gone that way, and stuck with those two clowns for years to come.  I have no idea if Gase and Douglas are the answer, but at least they aren't a guaranteed failing grade year after year.

 

Mahomes is already one of the top 3 QB's in the NFL.  I don't give a f**k who the GM and HC is, you take Mahomes and run.  Eventually, Bowles and Macc would have gotten fired for failing to build/develop around him, would be my guess.  

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5 minutes ago, JiF said:

 What edge rusher will be available worth that type of coin?  The recent contracts to "edge rushers" around the league havent exactly lived up to their billing.  Imagine if we signed Frank Clark or to a lesser extent Barr....how ape sh*t would this place be?  

I wasn't talking about adding an EDGE in free agency, unless we got very lucky.  I'm more talking about the draft assets we'd get from Adams, and using the money we save by NOT paying Adams on, say, interior OL, and/or saving up for the day we have to pay Darnold.  

LT, EDGE, CB1 and WR likely all need to come from the draft.  Probably the next several drafts....

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12 minutes ago, JiF said:

Ok, then there is more money to pay Jamal, no?

Again, just thinking out loud.  This team is hot garbage.  Very few talented players and to let arguably one of only real talents on the team walk (he's not getting traded) when you can easily fit him under the cap and have a ton more to spend, why wouldnt you?

I get SS is a luxury, that's not my argument.  I'm coming from more from the angle of, who else are you going to pay? And if they really do improve the talent level on D, he's no longer a luxury but a chess piece, no?    He's not going to mail it in Mo Wilk style, you in the very least know exactly what you're getting which is very good to great. 

 

 

The money we'd be spending on Jamal could easily be spent on 2 starting interior OL.  

OR, if a pass rusher/Corner/WR comes available that you DO like, you spend it there.

Basically spending on Adams takes away options to spend on premium positions.  I don't know WHO will be available in FA the next couple offseasons or how the draft plays out, but you just don't spend $14M per on Adams, who will never be more than the 4th most important player on the defense.  Build the defense around Mosley.  Spend money and heavy draft capital on offense.  

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13 minutes ago, genot said:

Nobody knew that Brady was going to be as good as he is. That's why he was drafted where he was. Mahomes was a boom or bust prospect. Considering the QB's who would be available the following year, it would have been way too risky too draft Mahomes.

It's the job of a GM to sometimes take calculated risks.  Mike Maccagnan never did that.  He always went for the "safe" choice.  And now here we are.  

Even if you want to argue that Mahomes wasn't the pick, there's zero justification for passing on Watson too.  

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2 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

Actually, I am involved in those type of negotiations all the time. And what I am willing to pay, and my cap, has nothing to do with where the person came into my organization, but rather their current and future value..... 

For example, I just somewhat recently made a person who came into my company as an intern, one of the highest paid people in my company. It has nothing to do with them starting as an intern, and everything to do with how valuable they are to my business today. They evolved into that. On the counter side, I have a sales guy I heavily recruited 2 years ago, and paid a hefty premium to get him in to my company. We rolled out the red carpet, did press releases around hiring him, gave him a staff, a great office and a very large salary. He is not working out nearly as well as we hoped. He is not worthless, but he is not worth what we are paying him. I am currently working out a plan that he will have to take, or leave based on what I quantify his value to be, not the way in which he came in....

 

Can you trade said employee for another one?  Because that's what I'd like the Jets to do here.  

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Just now, genot said:

That's a big time fart, my friend. He took a big risk drafting Hackenburg, and lost. No way he was going to do it again.

lol.  So because Hackenberg was such a disaster, he wasn't going to take another QB?  Come on.  There's no comparison to be made between Hackenberg and Watson/Mahomes as prospects.  Hackenberg wasn't even draftable based on his college resume.  

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5 minutes ago, FireTheJohnsons said:

You're trying way too hard to impress people on the interwebz that you don't even likely know outside of the message board..... Be true to yourself, everyone will respect you much more. Its much better to be respected, than liked. Thats free advice bud.

Thanks for the analysis, but I was pointing out that your work-related example doesn't exactly line up with an NFL marketplace.  

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1 minute ago, genot said:

He did take a QB. Sam Darnold. remember. To draft a QB, with as many question marks at the time, with what we had around him would have been too big a risk. We're talking the 6th pick in the draft. You want a sure thing at that slot. Your right about talent comparisons, but we're talking about a 2nd rounder vs a top 10 pick.

Macc's plan A was Kirk Cousins.  His Plan B was whoever fell to us at 3.  That might not have been Darnold if it hadn't been for an extremely lucky set of circumstances.  There's zero chance Macc's plan was to pass on those QB's to take one the next year.  His plan was Christian Hackenberg.  

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2 minutes ago, Pac said:

Maccs parting gifts might have been drafting 2 hall of famers in Jamal and Darnold.  

Not gonna put Quinnen in that category too?  Come on.  You've lost a step.  

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Just now, Pac said:

Absurd oversimplification.  

Did he, or did he not, offer Kirk Cousins 34 million dollars a year?  That's not an oversimplification.  

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8 minutes ago, genot said:

Nah. he was talked into, foolishly into drafting that bust by the coach that was with the Jet's who was at Penn State. Big mistake. everybody knew he was a bust his 1st training camp. Remember all the quotes by coaches about his accuracy. Funny stuff,

Which is why doubling down on Hackenberg in the 2017 draft was so stupid.  Whether you admit it or not, there was zero justification for passing on Mahomes/Watson.  

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Just now, FireTheJohnsons said:

What do we do next, do we go back to passing on Carr, Bridgewater and Garrapolo for Geno Smith? Maccagnan is thankfully gone, move on, he can't hurt you anymore moving forward. You are safe.

Well we weren't allowed to complain about it at the time, and now we're not allowed to complain about it in hindsight.  So.....

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1 hour ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I really enjoy your posts, but you are just as easily "triggered" by Jamal Adams talk as much as anyone that defends him.  You average about 80 posts per Adams discussion.  

I never denied that the pro-paying Adams arguments bother me.  

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12 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Random note -- for those who are upset we took a safety at 6 and passed on Mahomes and Watson...

Imagine if you're a Bears fan. You have the third overall pick in that draft. You TRADE UP one spot to make sure you get your guy... And it's Mitch Trubisky!!!!!

At least Adams is a stud and we have Darnold now. The Bears have a loaded Super Bowl caliber team and are wasting it the way we wasted ours with Sanchez.

 

The Bears' failings do not make us look any smarter by comparison.  

The Bears also have Khalil Mack.  We had every opportunity to get him and didn't.  Darnold on one side + Mack on the other = Super Bowl contender in 2020.  

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40 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Devin Smith is a draft mistake, so is hackenberg, or gholston, or coples, or dee Milner, or darron lee, or Dwayne Robertson.

drafting the best safety in football is not a “draft mistake”

They're all mistakes, and Jamal Adams is not the best Safety in football.  Kevin Byard stakes a claim to that.  He has 3 INT this season and 15 INT over his 3+ year career.  Eddie Jackson has 0 INT this year but has 8 career INT as well as 5 FR's, 3 FF's and 2 TD's.  

And yeah, I know you're going to respond with "There's more to playing Safety than INT's!  We use Adams differently!"  Enough with that.  We're in 2019.  Defensive football is all about getting to the QB and/or causing turnovers.  If you aren't doing one of those 2 things with some consistency you're just not that important and/or just not that good.

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25 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Exactly. 

If you look through the history of top 10 picks you will find plenty of absolute busts or just not very good players including Trubisky, Solomon Thomas, Corey Davis, John Ross, Mike Williams. Jets fans should be happy that we didn't make those mistakes. 

At least those GM's had balls and tried to bring in players at premium positions.  Macc was an absolute pu$$y.  And where did all those "safe" picks get us?  The 2nd worst record in football during his tenure (behind the Browns).  

I'm not saying you always take risks in the 1st round.  But at the same time, safe picks don't move the needle for a franchise.  They just kick the can down the road at positions that actually matter.  

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1 minute ago, jgb said:

They are all BUSTS. Jamal was a mistake. There is a difference but some prefer to conflate the two. 

You just summed up the argument in 2 sentences.  /EndThread

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1 minute ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Yeah, I am sure you would have cut Macc slack if he drafted a bust at 6. 

If it was an attempt to bring in a player at a position that matters, hell yeah I would have cut him some slack.  You have to take educated risks in this league if you want to build a perennial contender.  

It's why I give Tannenbaum and Mangini slack for the Gholston pick.  That was not nearly as awful/dumb a selection as history suggests it was.  Busts are never a "good thing" but we know they happen.  The "safe bets" at non-premium positions are what they are; OK picks that will never move the needle. 

I'd rather my GM take some big swings from time to time than constantly take guys who you know from the start won't move the needle.  

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2 hours ago, genot said:

Don't think it matters to his detractors. What pisses me off is the box safety nonsense. He's not just a box safety. stat after stat, proves that. So when people keep saying that to justify he's not worthy of a top ten pick, I go off. Lol.

Which ones?

When you spend roughly 30 % of your snaps around the LOS and are constantly a step slow in coverage, you're a Box Safety.  Deal with it.  

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2 hours ago, genot said:

Wake up. Just because he's asked to play more snaps in the box, doesn't mean he can't play in coverage. Which he does, and does very well. And he's better this year.https://www.pff.com/news/pro-jamal-adams-is-playing-at-an-elite-level-after-a-substantial-second-year-leap

Oh wow so he covers people sometimes cool.

Know who also covers people sometimes?  Everyone but D-Linemen.  

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15 minutes ago, genot said:

Yea. I'm sick of it. Really. When the earth was proved to be round and not flat, there we're still wackos who we're convinced it was flat. Some still do. It's scary

10-27 and a below average defense since Jamal arrived and we're the wackos for not worshiping the ground he walks on.  Sure.

Being a Jamal fanboy is like being a hype man for the world's best VCR repairman.  

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2 minutes ago, genot said:

Guess that means Revis wasn't all that much .Or dozens of other great players who played on bad teams. You make a fool at of yourself because you ignore facts. 

Revis was the most important player on defense for a team that won 4 playoff games in 2 seasons.  

Adams is 10-27 since he arrived and the defense has been below average in that span.  

You, sir, are taking crazy pills.  I'm the one using facts.  

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1 minute ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Revis cant win games like a Qb or protect Qbs or sack qbs. All the lights out perfect game play and completely shut down games he had with Revis island didnt get us to SB and honestly cant. Nope not good 1st round draft pick. Same as other comments  - its not complicated but the cowboys game shows you that there are two different ways to draft. the way we have done it for the most part and then the correct way. The correct way is QB, OL, or Sack specialist....

Revis was not good 1st round pick. he is like adams but better and he still is not good for us because we want to get guys that win us the games.

 

How the hell can anyone disagree with this?

 

I slightly disagree with what you're saying here.  CB1 is a premium position.  

How I would rank the most important positions:

1.  QB

2.  LT

3.  EDGE (and/or pass-rushing DT)

4a/b/c/d.  Rest of OL (basically a tie among all 4 other spots)

5.  CB1

6.  WR1

7.  WR2

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