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Darnold: Im seeing ghosts

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5 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

So this is the kind of fallacy that fans get caught up in often. Player X did Y last week, therefore he can do it again. It's what Jets fans applied to Sanchez (he took us to back-to-back AFCC games, therefore he can always do that), and Geno (he brought us back against Atlanta, therefore he can always do that). Capability and application are two very different things. Any quarterback drafted into the NFL is capable of having a good game or even several per season.

That doesn't mean they should be asked to do it.  That is my point.  The fallacy isn't that Darnold can do it. He has done it more than just last week.

 The fallacy is expecting him to do it all the time and game planning as such.  That was my point, maybe worded poorly. 

I guess my question for you is if you think a goid game and completely carrying an inept team are the same thing?  By that post, it seems like that is the case.

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29 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

How many years of your life would you say it's worth to find out if it's him or all the other variables? Life is short and Occam's razor really is a thing.

I am not sitting around waiting for him, but I'm not going all in on a QB for 2020 either.  He is a good enough prospect that I will let things fall to me.  If they are drafting that high in 2020 after the easy last schedule, and a prospect that I like is sitting there, then sure I would take him or even a modest trade up to get who I want.  OTOH, if they show out okay and ruin your usual plan to tank, then I am not all in on moving up, which I would be if the were sitting on Fitzpatrick/McCown/Petty/Hackenberg.

The real horror are the posters that were fine waiting for a QB and saying, "What is the sense of getting an adequate RB/CB/WR/TE/OLB?  We can't win without  a QB."  When those same posters are saying "How can Sam win with what he has?"  Get ****ed.

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4 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

That doesn't mean they should be asked to do it.  That is my point.  The fallacy isn't that Darnold can do it. He has done it more than just last week.

 The fallacy is expecting him to do it all the time and game planning as such.  That was my point, maybe worded poorly. 

I guess my question for you is if you think a goid game and completely carrying an inept team are the same thing?  By that post, it seems like that is the case.

It's the NFL. Play or don't. Asking a quarterback to throw 32 passes is reasonable.

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3 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

It's the NFL. Play or don't. Asking a quarterback to throw 32 passes is reasonable.

Yes it is.  Making zero adjustments to give him adequate time to throw and expecting him to constantly make throws under duress is not.  

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15 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am not sitting around waiting for him, but I'm not going all in on a QB for 2020 either.  He is a good enough prospect that I will let things fall to me.  If they are drafting that high in 2020 after the easy last schedule, and a prospect that I like is sitting there, then sure I would take him or even a modest trade up to get who I want.  OTOH, if they show out okay and ruin your usual plan to tank, then I am not all in on moving up, which I would be if the were sitting on Fitzpatrick/McCown/Petty/Hackenberg.

The real horror are the posters that were fine waiting for a QB and saying, "What is the sense of getting an adequate RB/CB/WR/TE/OLB?  We can't win without  a QB."  When those same posters are saying "How can Sam win with what he has?"  Get ****ed.

As of right now I don't think tanking makes sense practically or mathematically. A few more weeks of this though, maybe. All I really care about is the aggregate and right now it looks really bad. The one thing Darnold has going for him is that it's still a smallish dataset, but as a Jets fan my patience is nonexistent after the last decade so I'm not sure I care.

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18 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

As of right now I don't think tanking makes sense practically or mathematically. A few more weeks of this though, maybe. All I really care about is the aggregate and right now it looks really bad. The one thing Darnold has going for him is that it's still a smallish dataset, but as a Jets fan my patience is nonexistent after the last decade so I'm not sure I care.

Fair enough.  The key is not to let your nonexistent patience force bad decisions. That is part of the reason that we had to let these stiff GMs play out.  If it gets out that you are going to cut people loose in a couple of years, or before the plan has a chance, the next guy is going to rush and you will get a bunch of seasons like 2016. Expensive head cases, overpaying aging vets, no real hope for the future.

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I will add this.  The only thing I am convinced of is when Sam is good he's really good, when he's bad he's really bad.  11 of his 20 career interceptions have come in 3 games.

I do think overall he's had more good than bad, but his worst games are probably more extreme than his best games.

 

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11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Fair enough.  The key is not to let your nonexistent patience force bad decisions. That is part of the reason that we had to let these stiff GMs play out.  If it gets out that you are going to cut people loose in a couple of years, or before the plan has a chance, the next guy is going to rush and you will get a bunch of seasons like 2016. Expensive head cases, overpaying aging vets, no real hope for the future.

I mean it's usually pretty obvious from the outset if a plan is dumb. You read about Custer at Little Big Horn and one has to wonder why his companies didn't just bail as soon as he explained that sh*t.

 

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57 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

staring to his right the whole time. 82 is open

“Whole time” aka 0.1 seconds. That’s a free blitzer coming to his face.  

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Just now, nico002 said:

“Whole time” aka 0.1 seconds. That’s a free blitzer coming to his face.  

Yeah. It's the NFL. That's the gig.

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in the meantime Niners are 6-0 with Jimmy G doing a good Sanchez impersonation.

so, question...

after going 10-22       Kyle Shanahan is now 6-0...

99% of Jetnation would have had him fired in the middle of his 2nd year.

No. I am NOT SAYING that I expect teh same from Gase. No. I AM NOT defending Gase.

I am only asking...      so, what?, all of a sudden he is a good coach? or, is it THE PLAYERS?

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25 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I will add this.  The only thing I am convinced of is when Sam is good he's really good, when he's bad he's really bad.  11 of his 20 career interceptions have come in 3 games.

I do think overall he's had more good than bad, but his worst games are probably more extreme than his best games.

 

interesting to note.  Really the schemes these quarterbacks are put into makes all the difference usually in who has a chance to be successful and not.  It's interesting that most of his INT's have come mainly in 3 games.  Pats, Vikings, and i cant think of his other big INT game?

The problem is his HIGHS right now arent as High as his lows are low, and that comes with scheme. 

 

People want to pan mac for not drafting Mahomes that year, but truth be told, with the way this franchise has faired over the last 3 years, mahomes wouldnt be the transcendent star that he is in KC.  Right now there may not be anyone better at getting the most out of a quarterback than Andy Reid, the only other guys that come close would be payton and shanahan, who completely build excellent schemes to the strengths of their qbs and put them in a perfect position to succeed.  No way the combo of Morton and Bates would have done that for his first two years, and so far its not looking like the combo of Bates, and Gase can do it for Darnold in his first 2 either. 

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19 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I mean it's usually pretty obvious from the outset if a plan is dumb. You read about Custer at Little Big Horn and one has to wonder why his companies didn't just bail as soon as he explained that sh*t.

 

So the problem is the interview?  This has to make you question what the **** Tom Gamble actually said.  These morons got hired and Tom Gamble has been erased from the face of the earth and all mentions of him scrubbed from the internet.  

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1 hour ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Darnold was one hell of a talent and that's very clear, but there is such a strong correlation between games started and success in the NFL for QB's. That should have been the one lesson they took from Sanchez but they didn't, and honestly I'm cool with that. Darnold was worth taking a shot on because the improbable still happens sometimes. Going forward all we can go by is what aggregate information says and the books say that problems that arise from a lack of experience in college, probabilistically speaking, don't correct themselves in the pros. Combine that with his results thus far and there are more reasons to assess he's not the guy than reasons he is.

If I'm the Jets I am definitely taking a QB early next year. No doubt. When it comes to quarterbacks you have to play the odds. However my guess is Darnold has enough starts this year to give the Jets hope that the improbable will happen and they'll go all in on the line. That is unless a Kingsbury/Murray-type of situation happens, then who knows.

I do understand your logic/argument of taking another QB with the 1st-3rd overall pick that we will have next year because it is the most important position on the team BUT I dont think it's the right move for this team and here's why....

JD still needs to address the fallout fron the last two GM's neglect of crucial positions on this team, specifically the oline followed by offensive weapons. It is near impossible to full assessment of a QB with such little talent to throw to. It's really impossible for a young QB to develop and play to his potential behind one of the worst olines in the league. Throwing a young QB out there to get beat to hell behind a turnstyle oline is a great way to ruin his development and career. We've seen it before. 

My point being this; IMO, We've seen enough glimpses of what Sam can do to know the kid has talent. The top picks we'll have next year MUST be used to rebuild this oline and address neglected skill positions on the offense and impact positions on the defense. 

I'm not saying Sam didn't suck last night. He did. I'm personally no where close to giving up on the kid after last night, like some around here. But even if I was, I'm not spending top capital on another QB before we put an oline in place and get some talent on this team. 

What does Mahomes look like on this team? Would he have played like Sam did last night? probably not. But would he look anything like he has on a team with a solid oline, Hill and Kelce? No friggin way. 

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2 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

I do understand your logic/argument of taking another QB with the 1st-3rd overall pick that we will have next year because it is the most important position on the team BUT I dont think it's the right move for this team and here's why....

JD still needs to address the fallout fron the last two GM's neglect of crucial positions on this team, specifically the oline followed by offensive weapons. It is near impossible to full assessment of a QB with such little talent to throw to. It's really impossible for a young QB to develop and play to his potential behind one of the worst olines in the league. Throwing a young QB out there to get beat to hell behind a turnstyle oline is a great way to ruin his development and career. We've seen it before. 

My point being this; IMO, We've seen enough glimpses of what Sam can do to know the kid has talent. The top picks we'll have next year MUST be used to rebuild this oline and address neglected skill positions on the offense and impact positions on the defense. 

I'm not saying Sam didn't suck last night. He did. I'm personally no where close to giving up on the kid after last night, like some around here. But even if I was, I'm not spending top capital on another QB before we put an oline in place and get some talent on this team. 

What does Mahomes look like on this team? Would he have played like Sam did last night? probably not. But would he look anything like he has on a team with a solid oline, Hill and Kelce? No friggin way. 

I'll add this: The best draft this team has had in my lifetime was the Brick/Mangold draft in (I think) 06. 

Outside of 98, the most successful teams of my lifetime were the two AFC Champ Game years with Rex. That offense was built on a very good/possibly great oline, a really good RB and a couple very solid but unspectacular WR's. 

I personally think Sam is already a better/more talented QB than Sanchize during those years. Put Sam behind a real oline. Put Bell behind a real oline and get some talent on the outside that opposing teams need to account for. 

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6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Sam was terrible. But, who wasn’t? The entire O sleepwalked through the game. Bell was the only player that did his job.

And while Sam was terrible, who gave him the tools to overcome in this game? The front office gave him a for sh*t O line and pedestrian WR corps. The coach gave him a crap game plan and zero adjustments to beat a zero coverage blitz. The D couldn’t stop Brady on third down.

So, yeah, Darnold was terrible, but let’s not talk like he was sitting in a clean pocket, holding the ball too long and missing wide open receivers.

Ironically, though it was painful watching this game till the last tick as it was for every other Jet Fan, the one player unbelievably played pretty well was Leo with a Sack that caused an INT and forced grounding call on Brady that is tough for anyone to do both of in the same game. Hey, maybe it will boost his trade value and we can get more for him if we move him. I''d say if we lose this week at Jax I would bet there will be somewhat of a fire sale on 1 Jets drive.

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Jeff Darlington @JeffDarlington

Jets were an embarrassment last night, but Darnold’s comment isn’t a big deal. Even the best QBs have “seen ghosts” at some point. As one QB texted me today, “People don’t get what he’s saying. They think he was scared or spooked.” Or as Matt Ryan explained a few years back...

 

image.png.e17551bd1c8e64898b7a35fb1147d3a4.png

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Dennis Waszak Jr. @DWAZ73

One thing that should be mentioned in #Jets/Darnold talk: “seeing ghosts” is a term sometimes used when a player has trouble reading coverages or is fooled into reading them wrong. That was clearly the case for Darnold on MNF. But he didn’t mean he was seeing spirits.

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2 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Dennis Waszak Jr. @DWAZ73

One thing that should be mentioned in #Jets/Darnold talk: “seeing ghosts” is a term sometimes used when a player has trouble reading coverages or is fooled into reading them wrong. That was clearly the case for Darnold on MNF. But he didn’t mean he was seeing spirits.

Ffs, do people actually need this explained or does Waszak not know how memes work.

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Per Sam on TMKS - not embarrassed by the comment..common among QBs. Just wasn't seeing the field well. 

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9 hours ago, TeddEY said:

He won't play this bad.  We can be pretty confident in that.  But, that's not ultimately the concern.  The concern is what he does under duress, and we've got a decent amount of data to suggest that he throws the ball up in the air off of his back foot.

This was the Eli Manning scouting report for four years before he won a super bowl. And it continued to be even as he aged and won another. He really had the strangest NFL career ever.

 

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So is this why tannehill was always hurt ?

free freaking rushers and lousy protection schemes?

 

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So we have a QB that can’t read coverages. The worst Oline in football, and a Head Coach who can’t coach or call plays. 

I long for the 1996 New York Jets.

 

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6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

They have 6 rushers, we have 6 blockers, one of their rushers comes in scot free untouched.  Another is beating the TE block easily.  Our Qb is in a straight drop back formation, like always even though he is better rolling out like many QBs in this league.

The oline play stinks.

The pass protection scheme stinks.

The play design stinks.

Actually it’s 7 rushers against 6. Hence the free rusher on the right side. 3 also dropped back into coverage. 

 

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You know the clown in the pats* luxury box heard that and gave BB* a call during the game. Kinda BS that they would broadcast that in real time.

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1 hour ago, C Mart said:

Dennis Waszak Jr. @DWAZ73

One thing that should be mentioned in #Jets/Darnold talk: “seeing ghosts” is a term sometimes used when a player has trouble reading coverages or is fooled into reading them wrong. That was clearly the case for Darnold on MNF. But he didn’t mean he was seeing spirits.

I feel like I said exactly this in the second post of the thread immediately after the game.

Some people just don't know football terminology and jump all over things.  It's as if they heard Darnold yell out, "Mike! Mike!" while pointing at Hightower from the Patriots.  "Why is Darnold calling him Mike? Doesn't he know the Patriots linebacker's name in Dont'a?"

 

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9 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

Actually it’s 7 rushers against 6. Hence the free rusher on the right side. 3 also dropped back into coverage. 

 

Either way, a hot route was available for Sam. Sam knows the play, not the defense. If he see's this type of pressure formation he needs to understand his hot reads just in case. Sam is looking into the pressure and ignoring a wide open Crowder. 

That's the difference on that particular play. 

Overall though, Gase did Darnold no favors. Gase should have changed up the personnel packages the moment he realized that Darnold couldnt handle the pressure. 

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We blamed everyone else with Chad. We blamed everyone else with Sanchez. We blamed everyone else with Geno. Coaching, the line, weaponz, playcalling...etc. We’re really gonna do this again huh. 
I can't do it again. I gave my heart to Pennington and Sanchez and thought they were going to be it. I don't have blind loyalty to Sam, I want him to be good but he's had more bad games than good thus far.



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I wonder if the Grasshopper off the Green bar in Morristown where he hangs out will have a halloween costume party and everyone shows up dressed as ghosts. 

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2 hours ago, C Mart said:

Jeff Darlington @JeffDarlington

Jets were an embarrassment last night, but Darnold’s comment isn’t a big deal. Even the best QBs have “seen ghosts” at some point. As one QB texted me today, “People don’t get what he’s saying. They think he was scared or spooked.” Or as Matt Ryan explained a few years back...

 

image.png.e17551bd1c8e64898b7a35fb1147d3a4.png

The comment wasn’t  a big deal. What’s a big deal was the apparent lack of preparation or Darnolds inability to process information quick enough. One can be fixed the other not so much. 

 

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10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Things that could have helped IMO:

1. Far more designed passes to Bell (though Darnold screwed up one or two of those by too soft a touch to give the coverage an extra half-second to react, or just overthrowing) and to Crowder: designed quick passes that neither require time, nor rolling out to his right to cut off half his field (since they have trouble getting open downfield when the whole field is a route option).

While I wouldn’t turn down a 1st rounder for any Jet at this point - Bell included - the RB one one of maybe 2 true assets this team has for a young QB, and there’s a wide chasm between him and that second said asset. A big problem is Gase isn’t using his stud RB like he’s one of the game’s best all-around backs; he’s mostly using him like he’s got some one-dimensional Chris Ivory (however differently they run once getting the ball). 

2. Part of the above could be to change the play early and/or help assess the D in general when a young, ghost-seeing QB needs to have someone with a cooler head looking. It’d f*** over Gregg Williams by putting extra strain on the defense, as possessions on offense eat up a lot less clock, but instead of huddling up they could have lined up fast enough to let an eye in the sky OC help assess the D for him and call plays at the line. It’d kill our TOP, and it’s not a good long term decision for a team with playoff hopes, but that isn’t this Jets team anyway. Last night Darnold needed to see in real time what/why someone else sees something differently than he does; including not just coverages the QB is assessing poorly, but dare I say an unblocked defender about to make a beeline for him. 

Ordinarily I’d like a 2nd year QB to be expanding upon his rookie year, learning to scan the field and look through his progressions more here in year 2, but he doesn’t have the line (nor the receivers, nor the coaching creativity) to do that. What he needed last night was someone to dramatically simplify things with less thinking: design a much larger mix of quick high-percentage passes, even though it’d turn Robby A into nothing but a half-ass decoy running sprints with everyone knowing the ball’s not coming his way; and turn to that as a quick go-to pass when the D has it covered on must-pass downs. A problem is said coach would be Loggains who’s overseen zero good offenses and/or young QBs, and I don’t know if he can instantly assess things any better than Darnold. 

3. They also need to bring in a veteran backup QB so they can actually get Darnold off the field when they need to, and perhaps be at least a minor asset to him when the D is on the field. I suppose the only benefit to having none is Darnold doesn’t feel the added pressure of a backup that fickle fans want to see instead, but from last night that benefit seems pretty insignificant.

YOU GUIDE US SPERM!!!!!!!!!!!!

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