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Leonard Williams traded to the Giants


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If you feel shame for something a team that you're not connected to in any way shape or form except being a fan you probably need to take a step back and reassess things. 


It’d be nice for the team we root for not to be a dumpster fire every year, no?
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Suck it, Joe Douglas haters.  

For trade context: Jadaveon Clowney, a much more productive pass rusher, was traded for a 3rd in 2020 and two throw in players that have produced very very little this year. The Jets got great va

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


It’d be nice for the team we root for not to be a dumpster fire every year, no?

 

SB level team > dumpster fire team > Pennington/Edward's mediocrity ceiling and floor

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2 minutes ago, CTM said:

SB level team > dumpster fire team > Pennington/Edward's mediocrity ceiling and floor

>>>>> Rex/Sanchez good enough to win a super bowl with a quarterback that is merely garden-variety bad but instead inexplicably rolls with literally the worst one ever to have held a starting gig that long

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2 hours ago, phill1c said:

It's also bad to have to constantly have the team turned over for...mostly nothing. I'm happy people are hopeful with Joe Douglas. I don't know him and, given how many times I've been burned, I'm skeptical. After all, just a few years ago, some Jets GM amassed 100 picks and none of them are playing.

I liked Leo as a person but I really think the DT position is overvalued: by itself, it's usually not an impact position in today's game. It's a necessary foundational piece but it doesn't seem to yield players like Randy White or Joe Klecko, mostly just complementary pieces. But that could be that our player development is so poor or both.

I really hope Joe Douglas is the real deal. I'm just a little skeptical because he's part of a management 'team' that has seen almost a decade of non-playoff football. And I know Gase has to go, he's worse than any recent Jets HC.

You know what,,,you are right..lets just stay with all these underachieving players for another 5 years. I can't believe that any fan is upset with trading Leo, he is one of the most overrated players that I know of, he is just terrible, no matter where he was drafted. We got more than I thought we would for him,,lets just move forward and get rid of the players that will not get us to the next plateau...

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18 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Yea it would of been brilliant, he’d help Darnold our big time. Blocking, getting first downs, you know moving the chains all the things this team doesn’t have. At least he’d start on this since it’s so bad

 

You are right, he would have helped Darnold by getting this defense off the field on 3rd downs. What don't you see about that. He would have been better than QW, because we already have enough interior DTs...even without Leo.

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1 minute ago, Eaton Beaver said:

You know what,,,you are right..lets just stay with all these underachieving players for another 5 years. I can't believe that any fan is upset with trading Leo, he is one of the most overrated players that I know of, he is just terrible, no matter where he was drafted. We got more than I thought we would for him,,lets just move forward and get rid of the players that will not get us to the next plateau...

I didn't say I was upset, did I?

I am just reflecting on almost a decade of crappy teams and dashed beliefs and a lot of underperforming, highly drafted DTs.

I don't, however, see Williams as someone we needed to get rid of. He's a NT, I think physically a decent run stuffer. He's not an impact player, but what NT really is? and you need quality depth. You put him somewhere where they have a threat on the DL and he'll do quite well, I think.

Getting a 3 and a 5 is probably worth it since you have Q Williams. So, it does make good business sense in getting a return on an investment.

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2 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

The Giants aren't going to pay him as a top DE/DT either so he will probably be on the street next year. Pretty decent return for a player who never lived up to expectations.

So one commentator said Gettleman’s thinking was that even if Leo walks after these last 8 games the Giants then get the compensatory pick - could be a late third rounder.  He still didn’t think it was worth was Gettleman gave up but Gettleman LOVES lineman and it was worth it him to get the inside track on resigning Leo.


Basically he gave up a high 2020 3rd rounder for a low 2021 3rd rounder, plus the 4th or 5th 2020 rounder.

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So one commentator said Gettleman’s thinking was that even if Leo walks after these last 8 games the Giants then get the compensatory pick - could be a late third rounder.  He still didn’t think it was worth was Gettleman gave up but Gettleman LOVES lineman and it was worth it him to get the inside track on resigning Leo.

Basically he gave up a high 2020 3rd rounder for a low 2021 3rd rounder, plus the 4th or 5th 2020 rounder.


Problem with that logic is he can’t assume he’ll get a 3rd round compensatory pick. The contract Leo gets in free agency might only net them a 4th or 5th round compensatory pick. And they’d have to avoid signing UFA’s to get it.

Not a smart gamble by Gettleman.
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For anyone wondering, here are Leo's stats this year. I do think he gets a bit of a bad rap here, but for a guy we were never going to re-sign and the fact we already have guys that do the same thing as leo here it was a great trade.

 

0tH7BbE.jpg

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29 minutes ago, Eaton Beaver said:

You are right, he would have helped Darnold by getting this defense off the field on 3rd downs. What don't you see about that. He would have been better than QW, because we already have enough interior DTs...even without Leo.

He’s definitely better the Q. I’ve said that plenty 

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18 minutes ago, David Harris said:

So one commentator said Gettleman’s thinking was that even if Leo walks after these last 8 games the Giants then get the compensatory pick - could be a late third rounder.  He still didn’t think it was worth was Gettleman gave up but Gettleman LOVES lineman and it was worth it him to get the inside track on resigning Leo.


Basically he gave up a high 2020 3rd rounder for a low 2021 3rd rounder, plus the 4th or 5th 2020 rounder.

That's funny...I heard another commentator that said the Jets made a great trade, considering that Leo was a free agent after the season. That the Jets got back a little more than thought to happen.

I believe the second commentator, but I am sure other commentators will chime in....LOL

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37 minutes ago, David Harris said:

So one commentator said Gettleman’s thinking was that even if Leo walks after these last 8 games the Giants then get the compensatory pick - could be a late third rounder.  He still didn’t think it was worth was Gettleman gave up but Gettleman LOVES lineman and it was worth it him to get the inside track on resigning Leo.


Basically he gave up a high 2020 3rd rounder for a low 2021 3rd rounder, plus the 4th or 5th 2020 rounder.

The trade makes no sense from the giants perspective

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One conspiracy theory: the Maras hate the jets and will stop at nothing to beat us in 2 weeks

 

so they trade for Leo thinking he will have a revenge game against which he probably will since Kalil is a horror show

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

That's ok, we agree to disagree then. 

If we take your evaluation method, then any compensation makes this a great trade.  When the costs before don't matter, and the player assets gained and performance after don't matter, there is literally no way to have a bad deal under such kind evaluation criteria.  If we got a 7th round conditional pick, your logic would still find it a great trade.  

 

 

then you completely misunderstand my logic.  Because that would be a bad trade, no a very bad trade as the GM didn't get close to the realistic value of the player.  Really?  Imaginary scenarios?  LOL those prove nothing and completely misrepresent the logic.   

Douglas got more than I expected, so it is good. 

I don't blame Douglas for doing what was necessary. It's not his fault the cost was a 1st rd #6.  The whole point of the thread was that Douglas did pretty good. You've done your best to change it to the whole thing is a dark day for the Jets so why are we saying anything positive at all.  Happy Halloween!  You have the spirit.

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11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


It’d be nice for the team we root for not to be a dumpster fire every year, no?

 

That would be awesome.  I'm just not sure why people take it so personal that they would feel personal shame about it.   It seems weird to me. 

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16 hours ago, TeddEY said:

We gave up an extra 3 2nd round picks for Darnold because of wins that ‘meant something.’  Wonder where we’d be today without those winning feelings.  Certainly better off than 3 additional players.

And what if someone moved ahead of us to take Sam? You also assume all of those picks become quality players.  Have you seen our drafts this decade?

It never makes sense to tank.  Good GM's can find talent anywhere in the draft.

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15 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I don't totally disagree with you.  I can't help myself but to root FOR the Jets.....but they need so much more talent added to this team.  Getting a Top 5 picks and trading down to accumulate more is something this team could really use.

Here's the thing, whether you or I or anyone root for the Jets it doesn't help them win or lose so why would I ever told for them to lose?  I root to win, if they don't I can't control it.

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11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


Problem with that logic is he can’t assume he’ll get a 3rd round compensatory pick. The contract Leo gets in free agency might only net them a 4th or 5th round compensatory pick. And they’d have to avoid signing UFA’s to get it.

Not a smart gamble by Gettleman.

 

They are going to lose a few players to FA if they can't trade them... Jenkins being one of them... so it adds to the pool of players they are losing which might end up with a comp pick.

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Just now, nyjunc said:

 And what if someone moved ahead of us to take Sam? You also assume all of those picks become quality players.  Have you seen our drafts this decade?

 It never makes sense to tank.  Good GM's can find talent anywhere in the draft.

All of this is nonsense.  Every word of it.  Please tell me why the Jets today are better off because of their December 3rd, 2017 win against the Chiefs.  Specifically, how are we better because of that win.

As to your hypotheticals... If someone moved ahead of us at 3, we'd have been in the same situation we were in by trading up to 3, except, we'd have 3 less players.  Nothing stopped a team from moving ahead of us then, either.  I also don't assume all of those picks become quality players, I don't assume anything, because it doesn't matter.  Draft picks are opportunities, not guarantees.  But, they're certainly better opportunities to improve the present team than a December 3rd, 2017 win would be, again, unless you can specifically explain how that win is helping us on the field today?

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20 hours ago, MS jets Fan said:

As far as character goes he's been a good presence, but he never really fit the scheme for some reason.   Good luck Leo with the Giants.   Can't really say nothing bad about him.   Just from a logical stand point Joe D needed to get his players in here and get draft picks for that to happen.  

Dude stayed out of trouble but never seemed to be a leader or to show much intensity.  Steady production but it's the only position where they are deep and they need the draft picks.  Seems a no-brainer to me.  Not so sure where the Giants were coming from on this one, however.  They need draft picks too.

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11 hours ago, Warfish said:

:rolleyes:

yeah, you know I nailed it. 

You've distorted the fact that the GM made a good move and helped the team more than we thought was possible and somehow twisted it into a scolding that Jets fans should not say anything positive about it because the original cost (#6) was wasted by a different regime.  Makes no sense.  Just read back all your posts in this thread and see how far off you are.

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2 hours ago, choon328 said:

That would be awesome.  I'm just not sure why people take it so personal that they would feel personal shame about it.   It seems weird to me. 

Because part of a lot of peoples' identities are the teams they root for.  When a player scores a touchdown, the same part of the brain gets activated as the fans that root for the player scoring the touchdown.  The term is "fanatic" for a reason.  

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

All of this is nonsense.  Every word of it.  Please tell me why the Jets today are better off because of their December 3rd, 2017 win against the Chiefs.  Specifically, how are we better because of that win.

 As to your hypotheticals... If someone moved ahead of us at 3, we'd have been in the same situation we were in by trading up to 3, except, we'd have 3 less players.  Nothing stopped a team from moving ahead of us then, either.  I also don't assume all of those picks become quality players, I don't assume anything, because it doesn't matter.  Draft picks are opportunities, not guarantees.  But, they're certainly better opportunities to improve the present team than a December 3rd, 2017 win would be, again, unless you can specifically explain how that win is helping us on the field today?

Just to expand upon this.  Only 8 of the 22 starters on our 2017 win against the chiefs remain starters today.  3 of which are contributing to the league worst offensive line.  So, still going to need some help as to how that specific win has helped those 8 players get us our 1 win this season.

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Just to expand upon this.  Only 8 of the 22 starters on our 2017 win against the chiefs remain starters today.  3 of which are contributing to the league worst offensive line.  So, still going to need some help as to how that specific win has helped those 8 players get us our 1 win this season.

You're making great points, but there's no point in trying to communicate with nyjunc.  He's as obtuse as it gets.  A walking Dunning-Kruger posterboy.  

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30 minutes ago, Dcat said:

yeah, you know I nailed it.

Nope, not remotely.  But whatever makes you feel better about it all, you go right ahead.  

Quote

Just read back all your posts in this thread and see how far off you are.

No need tbqh, I know exactly what I said and what the posts meant. 

If you want to choose to see it a certain way, or choose to ignore the distinctions that were made, such is life.    

I'll just repeat my now repeatedly stated view here for posterity:

I'm not unhappy with the trade.  In point of fact, I advocated for exactly this in the period leading up to this.

I simply don't see it as something to start waving our collective dicks around over, as was happening (IMO) when I first commented.  Every other post of mine has stemmed from this.  Having our #6 overall pick bust is not good.  Having to trade him for reduced value (or let him walk for nothing) is not good.  Potentially having to replace him (spending other assets) is not good.  Getting something at least back for him IS good, IF we use that something well, and IF Leo doesn't turn into a stud elsewhere, which would IMO be an indictment against our organization.  I do not agree that sunk cost, and future results, are irrelevant to overall evaluation of this trade and player, as you and other do.  On that point, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

All of this is nonsense.  Every word of it.  Please tell me why the Jets today are better off because of their December 3rd, 2017 win against the Chiefs.  Specifically, how are we better because of that win.

As to your hypotheticals... If someone moved ahead of us at 3, we'd have been in the same situation we were in by trading up to 3, except, we'd have 3 less players.  Nothing stopped a team from moving ahead of us then, either.  I also don't assume all of those picks become quality players, I don't assume anything, because it doesn't matter.  Draft picks are opportunities, not guarantees.  But, they're certainly better opportunities to improve the present team than a December 3rd, 2017 win would be, again, unless you can specifically explain how that win is helping us on the field today?

We got Sam Darnold. All the rest are hypotheticals.  Cleveland has had top 10 picks in most years since returning to the league. How has unintentional tanking worked for them?  Good GM's find talent anywhere, there's a reason certain teams always draft later and others are always near the top.  If tanking worked every bad team would be trying it.  The only example of it working was Indy in 2011 then getting luck but with Luck retiring early it still didn't work in the long run.

We had TWELVE picks in 2014 in a good draft and we missed on 11 of the 12.  

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20 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why do I give a **** how old he is?  He is not under contract for 2020.  He was already making $14.2M per.  Do you want to sign him as a free agent?  Guess what, you can still do that.  They just traded away 9 games of Leonard Williams for a 3rd and a 5th.  I'm glad he is young, but I don't really give a ****.  BTW, it's Robertson.  If you want to make fun of @bitonti you have to get the name right.

No It's Richardson as in Sheldon, pay attention!

I'll take back leo as a free agent - he may not get what he wants , who knows? But what do you you think the odds of the Jets getting a 3rd round pick that will start? Zilch,

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Just now, nyjunc said:

We got Sam Darnold. All the rest are hypotheticals.  Cleveland has had top 10 picks in most years since returning to the league. How has unintentional tanking worked for them?  Good GM's find talent anywhere, there's a reason certain teams always draft later and others are always near the top.  If tanking worked every bad team would be trying it.  The only example of it working was Indy in 2011 then getting luck but with Luck retiring early it still didn't work in the long run.

We had TWELVE picks in 2014 in a good draft and we missed on 11 of the 12.  

So, in other words, you cannot explain how the 2017 win vs. the Chiefs is helping the Jets today.  You could have saved a lot of keystrokes and just said that.

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