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Losmeister

darnold = major bust (as of Nov 4, 2019)

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12 hours ago, lounap23 said:

His mechanics are bad because he has no time to set his feet.. The OL is awful.    the only INT he threw in which he wasn't forcing a throw due to a free runner in his face as he was trying to backup to by a 1/2 second to try and make a play was the 1 int he threw in the Cowboys game.

 

 

I think Sam has a lot to learn but the reality is if he had a serviceable OL this conversation isn't happening.   It's hilarious that people are calling him a bust and sayin Josh Allen is improving and looking better and on the upward swing and yet from a pure statistical standpoint, he is playing better, albeit I state this loosely, than Allen.  And the Bills have the 3rd best OL in football thru Week 9 according to PFF.  So Imagine what Darnold would look like if he was not playing behind the 31st ranked OL.

 

Calling him a bust an overreactions for sure.   Am I concerned? Yes   But he needs the OL to be fixed before we ruin him.

This is all wishful thinking, as there’s no body of work to suggest that when he has time to throw, his footwork and mechanics are good.

The guy is a linebacker turned QB who only played two college seasons.  Isn’t it possible that he just doesn’t have the fundamentals?  Isn’t it possible that he doesn’t understand what defenses are doing?

Or, is the only option that he’s really good but behind a bad offensive line?

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3 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This is all wishful thinking, as there’s no body of work to suggest that when he has time to throw, his footwork and mechanics are good.

The guy is a linebacker turned QB who only played two college seasons.  Isn’t it possible that he just doesn’t have the fundamentals?  Isn’t it possible that he doesn’t understand what defenses are doing?

Or, is the only option that he’s really good but behind a bad offensive line?

This is why you fix the OL and offense at all costs and treat Darnold as an unknown and possibly a placeholder for the next guy. The offensive roster is still a major issue regardless of who the QB is. Make an environment where Darnold has no excuses and then replace him if necessary while having a solid roster on offense in place. 

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10 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

This is why you fix the OL and offense at all costs and treat Darnold as an unknown and possibly a placeholder for the next guy. The offensive roster is still a major issue regardless of who the QB is. Make an environment where Darnold has no excuses and then replace him if necessary while having a solid roster on offense in place. 

Agreed, unless you love a QB coming out. We’re picking at worst, at 3 I’d think.

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23 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Agreed, unless you love a QB coming out. We’re picking at worst, at 3 I’d think.

If you love a QB coming out, you don’t subject him to the abuse of our horrid offense. It’s time to pay the piper and fix the OL. I honestly would avoid QB this year but that’s just me. 

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1 hour ago, Creepy Lurker said:

If you love a QB coming out, you don’t subject him to the abuse of our horrid offense. It’s time to pay the piper and fix the OL. I honestly would avoid QB this year but that’s just me. 

This team hasn't had a franchise QB in my lifetime.  If you see that guy, I still think you have to take him.  Nothing Sam Darnold has done would stop that.  You can take OLine in the 2nd and 3rd round, and address it in free agency as well.

I'm not sure that QB exists, as in the little I've seen, I'm not sold on Tua, but I'm speaking hypothetically.

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8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This team hasn't had a franchise QB in my lifetime.  If you see that guy, I still think you have to take him.  Nothing Sam Darnold has done would stop that.  You can take OLine in the 2nd and 3rd round, and address it in free agency as well.

I'm not sure that QB exists, as in the little I've seen, I'm not sold on Tua, but I'm speaking hypothetically.

But none of these guys are that.  its an ok qb class but none of these are cant misses.  You trade back, build the offense and if darnold still stinks next year, you take a qb in the 2021 draft.

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20 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This team hasn't had a franchise QB in my lifetime.  If you see that guy, I still think you have to take him.  Nothing Sam Darnold has done would stop that.  You can take OLine in the 2nd and 3rd round, and address it in free agency as well.

I'm not sure that QB exists, as in the little I've seen, I'm not sold on Tua, but I'm speaking hypothetically.

I hear you. My point was even great prospects can’t thrive in this environment. Mahomes would have been terrible here. It’s all context and we need to make an excuse proof environment where the OL and weapons are at least middle of the pack.

If we build a great OL and D, we can make noise with even a mediocre QB which is more realistic than a stud QB. At least we would be relevant and have a strong foundation for if/when we finally hit on he right QB. 

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7 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

But none of these guys are that.  its an ok qb class but none of these are cant misses.  You trade back, build the offense and if darnold still stinks next year, you take a qb in the 2021 draft.

That's why I say, it's a hypothetical.  I don't know enough about the QBs at this point, and despite the fact that I'm way down on Darnold, there's no real impetus to move on from him next year.  Though, I wouldn't shy away from bringing in real competition.

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Just now, Creepy Lurker said:

I hear you. My point was even great prospects can’t thrive in this environment. Mahomes would have been terrible here. It’s all context and we need to make an excuse proof environment where the OL and weapons are at least middle of the pack.

 If we build a great OL and D, we can make noise with even a mediocre QB which is more realistic than a stud QB. At least we would be relevant and have a strong foundation for if/when we finally hit on he right QB. 

I don't think Mahommes would have been terrible here.  I don't think we'd be competing for AFC Championships, but I think you'd still see plenty of good.  Meanwhile, I think Darnold would look better in KC, but nothing comparable to what you're seeing Mahommes do.

Mahommes is a tricky one too, because if he were here, we'd also have had an additional 1, and 3 2s.  So, you'd have to hope at least we'd have gotten something out of it.

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15 hours ago, lounap23 said:

His mechanics are bad because he has no time to set his feet.. The OL is awful.    the only INT he threw in which he wasn't forcing a throw due to a free runner in his face as he was trying to backup to by a 1/2 second to try and make a play was the 1 int he threw in the Cowboys game.

 

 

I think Sam has a lot to learn but the reality is if he had a serviceable OL this conversation isn't happening.   It's hilarious that people are calling him a bust and sayin Josh Allen is improving and looking better and on the upward swing and yet from a pure statistical standpoint, he is playing better, albeit I state this loosely, than Allen.  And the Bills have the 3rd best OL in football thru Week 9 according to PFF.  So Imagine what Darnold would look like if he was not playing behind the 31st ranked OL.

 

Calling him a bust an overreactions for sure.   Am I concerned? Yes   But he needs the OL to be fixed before we ruin him.

No OL, No HC, No chance to make reads on crappy plays.

Sam will get better after the OL is fixed and Gase is ushered out.

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3 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

This is why you fix the OL and offense at all costs and treat Darnold as an unknown and possibly a placeholder for the next guy. The offensive roster is still a major issue regardless of who the QB is. Make an environment where Darnold has no excuses and then replace him if necessary while having a solid roster on offense in place. 

S
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9 hours ago, Losmeister said:

only sometimes.

he has bad technique in general. perfectly protected, still sh*t footwork.

image.png.12ba15d400033f14b8f55dbcafde2201.png

As I stated in another thread Sam is who he is.  He has always played this way... Same as Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers.  Though I think Rodgers and Rivers are freaks with how accurate they are and mitigating their TO's   You gotta live with the good and bad.  In games like the Cowboy game in which he threw off his back foot a lot with a clean pocket and not under pressure.  He looked great.   He had 2 passes last week off his back foot and they were money throws.   Under intense pressure and throwing off your back foot is where Sam makes his mistakes. With him under intense pressure 90-90% of his throws those mistakes amplify.  Give him an OL that cuts the pressure down to the NFL average and Sam will reduce those mistakes and increase the productivity of the offense.  

 

Josh Allen has 10 TD and 7 Ints and 5 FL  behind the 3rd best OL in the NFL

Sam has 6 TDs and 9 Ints and 1 FL  behind the 30th ranked OL in the NFL

 

So maybe you believe even with Sam behind a top flight NFL OL like the Bills he is a bust.   I disagree... I watched him in College and he is who he is.  You may not like it and I understand.  I just disagree and think give him an average OL and he will be very good.   It also helps to correct footwork when your QB can actually be in the pocket to work on his footwork.    But he doesn't have the option right now.

 

It's real simple get an NFL average OL or better and lets judge him after that.  Until then it's easy to say he's a bust because he has no chance to develop and be the QB he is. 

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4 hours ago, TeddEY said:

This is all wishful thinking, as there’s no body of work to suggest that when he has time to throw, his footwork and mechanics are good.

The guy is a linebacker turned QB who only played two college seasons.  Isn’t it possible that he just doesn’t have the fundamentals?  Isn’t it possible that he doesn’t understand what defenses are doing?

Or, is the only option that he’s really good but behind a bad offensive line?

Like i just said in another response.   Like Favre, Rivers and even Rodgers... Sam isn't the mechanically perfect QB.  He has always made plays even when he's throwing off his back foot in a clean pocket.   Give the kid an OL that doesn't have him under siege and you'll see what he can do.  Good or bad.   I watched him in college and I have seen enough of him on the pro level to know that with just a functional OL he will be very good.   But this OL is not functional.  I could probably grab any 5 guys off this board that are over 6'1 and 300lbs and field an OL that would give Sam the same protection.  That is how historically bad the OL is.    This isn't an excuse for Sam.  It's a simple fact that their may not be a QB in NFL history that would look ok behind this OL.   hard to call him a bust or anything till we fix that.  If that never gets fixed he'll go down as a bust because the CS and FO never set him up for anything but failure 

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1 minute ago, lounap23 said:

I just disagree and think give him an average OL and he will be very good.   It also helps to correct footwork when your QB can actually be in the pocket to work on his footwork.   

right on, bruv. we can disagree. at least you articulate yourself well.

he defo needs to work on his footwork cos its cost him/the Jets alot this season.

he throws off back foot and misses open guys with a clean pocket as well as sometimes making throws.

i dont dig it.

for me, i feel like i am rooting for a modern, better Richard Todd...   

having to try to deny obvious, serious flaws.

respect.

 

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btw, i'd like to see where this OL lines up againistg historically worst...

not being argumentative here, but seriously wondering.

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i was just combing thru pre-draft stuff...   i am not implying that i believe his dude as legit...

but the crits i see? they say, baiscally, the same things and they have played out in his first 2 seasons to date.

whether he can course correct is to be seen...    as of now, looks like we got shafted in all we gave up for him

 

 

image.png

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31 minutes ago, lounap23 said:

Like i just said in another response.   Like Favre, Rivers and even Rodgers... Sam isn't the mechanically perfect QB.  He has always made plays even when he's throwing off his back foot in a clean pocket.   Give the kid an OL that doesn't have him under siege and you'll see what he can do.  Good or bad.   I watched him in college and I have seen enough of him on the pro level to know that with just a functional OL he will be very good  But this OL is not functional.  I could probably grab any 5 guys off this board that are over 6'1 and 300lbs and field an OL that would give Sam the same protection.  That is how historically bad the OL is.    This isn't an excuse for Sam.  It's a simple fact that their may not be a QB in NFL history that would look ok behind this OL hard to call him a bust or anything till we fix that.  If that never gets fixed he'll go down as a bust because the CS and FO never set him up for anything but failure 

I actually think Sam is quite a bit like Brett Favre.  The problem is that Favre has an all-time arm to compensate for some of his mental and mechanical shortcomings.  Sam's arm - I believe it may be generous to call it average by NFL standards.

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40 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

btw, i'd like to see where this OL lines up againistg historically worst...

not being argumentative here, but seriously wondering.

That's literally me regurgitating a comment I heard Pat Kirwan make on NFL Radio last week LOL!!!  

And honestly in the 48 years of my life and dating back to my first memories of the 1980 Jets and what seemed like Todd throwing an INT every other pass to the Ken O'Brien years specifically 85 where he seemed to get saked 6-7 times a game.   I have literally never seen a QB with Less time, free runners and missed blocks on every damn play then I have this year.  And we are only halfway thru the year.  

 

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11 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I actually think Sam is quite a bit like Brett Favre.  The problem is that Favre has an all-time arm to compensate for some of his mental and mechanical shortcomings.  Sam's arm - I believe it may be generous to call it average by NFL standards.

His arm is better than average but even with that said all the more reason to make sure the OL is fixed.  And arm strength is overrated sometimes.   Every play is designed to work within a certain time frame.   The QB needs to anticipate and throw the WR open.   Take Chad Pennington.   Darnolds arm is way better than Chad's.   Yet Chad threw one of the best deep balls in NFL history.   Randy Moss even said Chan never under threw him. Why?  Because Chad knew when to throw the ball in perfect timing with the WR and the route.   Also a trait Montana had. 

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33 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

i was just combing thru pre-draft stuff...   i am not implying that i believe his dude as legit...

but the crits i see? they say, baiscally, the same things and they have played out in his first 2 seasons to date.

whether he can course correct is to be seen...    as of now, looks like we got shafted in all we gave up for him

 

 

image.png

100% his mechanics need work.  100% can be turnover prone, like I stated already, when he is under intense pressure and feels like he needs to make things happen he will turnover the ball.   Wildly inconsistent?  No. Inconsistent at times when the pocket breaks down quickly?  Yes   

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Just now, lounap23 said:

His arm is better than average but even with that said all the more reason to make sure the OL is fixed.  And arm strength is overrated sometimes.   Every play is designed to work within a certain time frame.   The QB needs to anticipate and throw the WR open.   Take Chad Pennington.   Darnolds arm is way better than Chad's.   Yet Chad threw one of the best deep balls in NFL history.   Randy Moss even said Chan never under threw him. Why?  Because Chad knew when to throw the ball in perfect timing with the WR and the route.   Also a trait Montana had. 

Making a comparison to Chad Pennington is just saying, his arm isn't league worst.  Chad's arm was not average, nor close to it.  And Chad Pennington, and his arm, won absolutely nothing.

But, I agree, you don't need a top tier arm to succeed at this level, but you do need something.  And, if you're going to be a gunslinger, which Sam sort of is, you need your arm to be elite.  It's not, and I maintain it's average at best.

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33 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Making a comparison to Chad Pennington is just saying, his arm isn't league worst.  Chad's arm was not average, nor close to it.  And Chad Pennington, and his arm, won absolutely nothing.

But, I agree, you don't need a top tier arm to succeed at this level, but you do need something.  And, if you're going to be a gunslinger, which Sam sort of is, you need your arm to be elite.  It's not, and I maintain it's average at best.

Well, besides 2 division titles, multiple playoffs games at home and on the road and coming in 2nd in the mvp voting, yes he won nothing.

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11 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Well, besides 2 division titles, multiple playoffs games at home and on the road and coming in 2nd in the mvp voting, yes he won nothing.

I mean, how pathetic is it that getting 4 MVP votes, 28 less than the winner, in a year where you made the playoffs with a gimmick offense that made you largely irrelevant, and then you lost in the playoffs by throwing 4 INTs, is counted on the positive side?

You forgot 2x CBPOY while you're listing things that didn't help get the Jets anywhere near a championship.

Pennington was awful.

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2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I mean, how pathetic is it that getting 4 MVP votes, 28 less than the winner, in a year where you made the playoffs with a gimmick offense that made you largely irrelevant, and then you lost in the playoffs by throwing 4 INTs, is counted on the positive side?

You forgot 2x CBPOY while you're listing things that didn't have get the Jets anywhere near a championship.

Pennington was awful.

your are right 2CBPOY.  hes even better then I thought.

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Our Qb is 22 years old.

Here is a QB who played very little in his first year as a 22 year old (27 passing attempts) and then here are his 2nd and 3rd years as a 23 and then 24 year old.

23 years old: 17 tds, 16 ints, 205 yds per game, 60.8 comp %

24 years old: 11 tds, 15 ints, 192 yds per game,  58% comp %

Wonder who this Qb is?

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Just now, Beerfish said:

Wonder who this Qb is?

Not really, no.

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7 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Our Qb is 22 years old.

Here is a QB who played very little in his first year as a 22 year old (27 passing attempts) and then here are his 2nd and 3rd years as a 23 and then 24 year old.

23 years old: 17 tds, 16 ints, 205 yds per game, 60.8 comp %

24 years old: 11 tds, 15 ints, 192 yds per game,  58% comp %

Wonder who this Qb is?

If you are trying to make an argument that a Qb can take a few years to develop. You must have got lost and forgot what fan base you are talking too.   Lets give a young promising QB a few years to develop and lets help that kid develop by building a solid OL and some explosive weapons around him in that process, is the absolute stupidest thing ever mentioned.. Don't bring that logic and common sense to this board.  :sarc:

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22 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Not really, no.

I'll give yo one hint....and it's a big one so you won;t have to think too hard.. he's the all time passing yardage leader.

He started with a crap team, got hurt and then blossomed once he went to a team with an oc that knew his ass from his elbow.

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QB 1:

24 years old: 12 tds, 16 ints, 163.9 ypg, 50.1 comp %

25 years old: 17 tds, 22 ints, 180 ypg, 55.8 comp %

QB 2: 

22 years old: 7 tds, 9 ints, 114.5 ypg, 51.8 comp %

23 years old: 13 tds, 11 ints, 159.9 ypg, 55.6 comp %

QB 3: 

22 years old: 2 tds, 4 ints, 93.3 ypg, 54.5 comp %

23 years old: 13 tds, 8 ints, 161.5 ypg, 53.8 comp %

QB 4:

23 years old: 0 td, 1 int, 8 ypg, 60 comp %

24 years old: 8 td, 8 int, 148.9, 49.6 comp %

QB 5: 

23 years old: 4 td, 0 int, 108.4 ypg, 51.5 comp %

24 years old: 10 td, 11 int, 197.8 ypg, 56.4 comp %

 

Wonder who these guys are?

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Just now, Beerfish said:

I'll give yo one hint....and it's a big one so you won;t have to think too hard.. he's the all time passing yardage leader.

He started with a crap team, got hurt and then blossomed once he went to a team with an oc that knew his ass from his elbow.

I love how people love to pretend that Drew Brees's two monster years in San Diego never happened.

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