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Oline troubles

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2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

We only have one first round pick and a ton of holes.  If Andrew Thomas there great but he may not be

If the Jets get Thomas, great, they should still consider Prince in the 2nd or a top tier OG/C. If not, they need to get a G/C in the 3rd and or 4th. Thats kind of my point. Draft O-line early and often. Honesty, I'd be happy if they ONLY drafted O-line, CB and WR in the whole draft. Just punt on a Pass Rusher until next one or try to get one in Free Agency. With the draft picks they have they can do that and come away with a starting OT (Rd. 1), C (Rd. 2) and contributing if not starting caliber CB (Rd. 3) and maybe even OG (Rd. 3). I would look for WR in the mid to late rounds b/c of the fantastic depth of talent this year at the WR position. They should be able to get some nice developmental talent at the WR position in the 4th and 5th rounds. Guys like Denzel Mims or Chase Claypool come to mind. Guys that truly show how deep this WR class is as they should fall to the 4th round simply b/c of the talent ahead of them.   

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OL sucks period. Yes they did decent in pass pro v the Giants and Redskins but still cant run block to save their lives. I almost fainted when Powell broke that 12 yard run, I havent seen that in a few years

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2 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Lots to talk about with Sam, but let me pick one thing in what you said that I've seen turn from a negative to a positive.  We all know that Sam has little Favre in him in terms of not being afraid to take a chance, make an off-script/risky throw, be a bit of a gunslinger.  It was Sam's MO in college.....great talent, great arm, sometimes careless with the football.  And, that can sometimes work (as it did vs. the Giants) or not (Patriots).  But, I think Sam is becoming more aware of his tendency to do this and has been getting better at quickly making the risk/reward decision.

Sam also seems to learn from these mistakes in game.  Last week vs. the Redskins is a good example.  He made one really bad mistake in a game that was the Jets to lose.  We didn't need him to take chances, he didn't have to play above his head for the Jets to win.  But he made a bad throw while about to get sacked and it turned into an INT.  As we all know an Incompletion (throw it away) is better than a sack.  But a sack is better than an INT.  Sam should have taken the sack if he couldn't get the ball out of bounds there.  The POSITIVE is that I didn't see him do this again the rest of the game.  He threw a couple balls out of bounds and settled for some situations where a punt would be better than a turnover.  This is growth IMO.  I like that there's some gunslinger in him....we'll really need it at some point to win games when the Jets are outmatched.  But calculating the risk/reward on each play, knowing the situation and understanding the Incompletion > Sack > INT precedence is what makes good QBs become great QBs.  Perfect example - Jamies Winston.  Lots of TDs and lots of INTs.  He's just out there throwing it.  Has all the talent in the world but doesn't seem to be able to pump the "mental brakes" on a play that is going to go sideways on him.

Thinking lots of the same things.

The one mistake against Wash where he threw the pick was close to inexplicable in “what was he seeing there? there was absolutely nothing”, but in actuality it was an “SC” throw that is still in his 22 year old repertoire.  Can’t throw it up for grabs in the NFL.  Needs to be cleaned up and I’m confident it will.  I saw lots of his college games and am still amazed how he was able to change his delivery which is way more compact.  He also has cleaned up almost entirely a fumbling issue (not easy SEE NYG, that could haunt Jones his entire career) he had in college.  So now we’re just down to “bad decisions” and the picks that come from them.  More study time, but most importantly better personnel will end most of that.

Yeah, he HAS TO be Gunslinger to give these Jets even the slightest chance of winning.  

He is 3-4 right now in 2019, should be 4-3 (the mono game where the D blew a late 16-0 lead that statistically 99% of teams win) and I’m thinking if Gase let’s play in the SAME style he is playing in the last few weeks ie not having him drop straight back into a non existent pocket to get crushed, there is a decent argument to be made he wins the Miami game if they played them this Sunday, would be 5-2.

The main point I’m trying to make is that the sky is not falling.  Kid has tons of talent and it will become more and more apparent.  Heck it already was end of last year...TOP RATED PASSER IN THE NFL....Final Qtr of last season.  I know Gase watched tape of those games, why he totally deviated from the style of play that had Darnold basically beating JJ Watt and his close to top ranked D and Aaron Rodgers before Bowles D cratered as usual and failed to protect the lead in the final drive....I have no idea.

But running left and right and winging passes all over is the ONLY way Darnold can play right now, simply because he has no OL.  Although interestingly it is somewhat better after subtracting Winters and Khalil.

Raiders, the ante gets upped,  a better test....I think at worst Darnold puts a scare into Gruden’s team this week....3 games out of 7 putting up 30+ points playing on this awful team, and I know some of that was done against other bottom feeders.

Lets set the bar real low, tell me do you see nothing but a string of shut outs and at best maybe 2 FGs per game with Mark Sanchez QBing the 2019 Jets?  Things are not as bad as many are saying.  But you’ll have to wait a little while longer and let Douglas go to work.

 

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3 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

He's been injured on and off the whole year.  I also think he's a bit miscast in the structure of the running game we currently have.  I recall starting a thread or writing a lengthy post about this in August or September, saying that the Jets were in a Catch-22.  Bell seems to run better in a man-blocking scheme rather than zone.  He wants OLinemen to quickly get on blocks so that HE can identify the gap or the one unblocked guy he'll have to beat.  The Jets run more zone-blocking it seems.  The problem is that our personnel seem slightly better suited for that and it has helped in some pass protection.  So, what do you do?  Do you block in a scheme that might be better for what your OLinemen can do or do you block using techniques that your RB loves?  I'm not surprised that "quick hole hitters" like Powell or Montgomery have had some success recently.

I think you need to get other backs more reps especially if he is hurting. Gaining 3 yards per carry isn't really helping and we know that Gase isn't capable of using players according to their strengths. 

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6 hours ago, Maxman said:

Pass blocking was good against the worst team in the NFL. Run blocking was still terrible.

Once again, Wash. is ranked 9th against the pass, and maybe at the bottom against the run, but we ran over 100 yards on them and to me that is always a good running day, plus the fact that we are seeing now that teams can no longer (like the last 5-10 years) load up 8 men in the box to fully shutdown our run because Darnold and the passing game are continuing to become more and more of a threat as time goes on.

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2 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Thinking lots of the same things.

The one mistake against Wash where he threw the pick was close to inexplicable in “what was he seeing there? there was absolutely nothing”, but in actuality it was an “SC” throw that is still in his 22 year old repertoire.  Can’t throw it up for grabs in the NFL.  Needs to be cleaned up and I’m confident it will.  I saw lots of his college games and am still amazed how he was able to change his delivery which is way more compact.  He also has cleaned up almost entirely a fumbling issue (not easy SEE NYG, that could haunt Jones his entire career) he had in college.  So now we’re just down to “bad decisions” and the picks that come from them.  More study time, but most importantly better personnel will end most of that.

Yeah, he HAS TO be Gunslinger to give these Jets even the slightest chance of winning.  

He is 3-4 right now in 2019, should be 4-3 (the mono game where the D blew a late 16-0 lead that statistically 99% of teams win) and I’m thinking if Gase let’s play in the SAME style he is playing in the last few weeks ie not having him drop straight back into a non existent pocket to get crushed, there is a decent argument to be made he wins the Miami game if they played them this Sunday, would be 5-2.

The main point I’m trying to make is that the sky is not falling.  Kid has tons of talent and it will become more and more apparent.  Heck it already was end of last year...TOP RATED PASSER IN THE NFL....Final Qtr of last season.  I know Gase watched tape of those games, why he totally deviated from the style of play that had Darnold basically beating JJ Watt and his close to top ranked D and Aaron Rodgers before Bowles D cratered as usual and failed to protect the lead in the final drive....I have no idea.

But running left and right and winging passes all over is the ONLY way Darnold can play right now, simply because he has no OL.  Although interestingly it is somewhat better after subtracting Winters and Khalil.

Raiders, the ante gets upped,  a better test....I think at worst Darnold puts a scare into Gruden’s team this week....3 games out of 7 putting up 30+ points playing on this awful team, and I know some of that was done against other bottom feeders.

Lets set the bar real low, tell me do you see nothing but a string of shut outs and at best maybe 2 FGs per game with Mark Sanchez QBing the 2019 Jets?  Things are not as bad as many are saying.  But you’ll have to wait a little while longer and let Douglas go to work.

 

That's a great point that not many people think about.  The Jets are 3-7, but Darnold is actually 3-4...and should be 4-3 with that Week 1 choke job by the Jets D.

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9 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Our OL has looked much better since the stiffs Kalil and Winters got hurt

IMO one of the things that has been helping the OL is Wesco.  Not being talked about but he's been getting more snaps lately.  26 snaps against the Skins, all in a blockingrole, no stats.  He doesn't screen people off, he stuns them.  Re-watch the game, guys a hammer

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11 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

That's a great point that not many people think about.  The Jets are 3-7, but Darnold is actually 3-4...and should be 4-3 with that Week 1 choke job by the Jets D.

And to reiterate, most likely 5-2 with Darnold QBing if the “light had gone on”...not for Darnold, but for Adam Gase, if Gase hadn’t continued to hamstring Darnold with these straight drop backs playing with no OL...Darnold plays the SAME style he has the last 2 weeks I’m HIGHLY confident he beats Miami, which of course is no big deal, yes another bottom feeder, but again, the sky is not falling.

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If we set a record on OL investment - Go all in of Free Agency and take one with every pick in the first three rounds - I wont be mad. It's tough to go from bottom unit in the league to one of the best but we need to f*cking try. We're one of the few teams I've seen do it before. 

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I think Jets fans came into the season with an understanding that the roster lacked talent, which naturally evolved into a belief that no one (outside of Adams, Bell, and Mosley) was particularly important to the success of the team, so losing a player like Beachum or Osemele shouldn't have impacted the play of the offense. If everyone sucks, the offense should work the same with Beachum (who sucks) as it would with Edoga (who sucks). Obviously, as we've seen all over the league this season, losing a starting OLT can devastate an entire team, no matter how good the QB is. 

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2 hours ago, flgreen said:

IMO one of the things that has been helping the OL is Wesco.  Not being talked about but he's been getting more snaps lately.  26 snaps against the Skins, all in a blockingrole, no stats.  He doesn't screen people off, he stuns them.  Re-watch the game, guys a hammer

Been saying it all along go 2-TEs 

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Need to AGGRESSIVELY attack the position in the offseason. Free agency they need to make 1-2 big splash moves for top OL talent. Spend the money on protecting who you believe is your franchise QB. If they can get them in FA, then they forced to used their first 2 picks (1st/2nd round) on OL. If they have a high enough pick, I'd highly consider trading back. OT out of Georgia - Andrew Thomas has to be on their radar. If they draft a defensive player in 1st round, I'll lose my mind. 

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19 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

He's been injured on and off the whole year.  I also think he's a bit miscast in the structure of the running game we currently have.  I recall starting a thread or writing a lengthy post about this in August or September, saying that the Jets were in a Catch-22.  Bell seems to run better in a man-blocking scheme rather than zone.  He wants OLinemen to quickly get on blocks so that HE can identify the gap or the one unblocked guy he'll have to beat.  The Jets run more zone-blocking it seems.  The problem is that our personnel seem slightly better suited for that and it has helped in some pass protection.  So, what do you do?  Do you block in a scheme that might be better for what your OLinemen can do or do you block using techniques that your RB loves?  I'm not surprised that "quick hole hitters" like Powell or Montgomery have had some success recently.

Gase should adapt again & start Powell on early downs & use Bell on 3rd down depending on down & distance. Use Bell & put him in motion to help Sam determine the defense. 

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1 hour ago, Jetster said:

Gase should adapt again & start Powell on early downs & use Bell on 3rd down depending on down & distance. Use Bell & put him in motion to help Sam determine the defense. 

The Cardinals benched $35M RB David Johnson for the recently acquired Kenyan Drake. All based on performance / effectiveness. 

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On 11/19/2019 at 9:57 AM, section314 said:

Was switching back and forth to the Ravens/Texans game Sunday during timeouts of our game. Fouts was talking about the Raven Oline, saying that outside of Yanda, the other 4 starters have been playing 4 years or less, and all are their draft picks. Since Douglass learned from Ozie and deCosta, here's hoping the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.😁

 

 

 

This is untrue. 

Matt Skura center was 2016 undrafted from Duke

the others were picks but only 1 first rounder actually 

LT Ronnie Stanley 1st rd pick 6th overall 

LG Bradley Bozeman 6th rd pick

C Skura undrafted  

RG Marshal Yanda 3rd rd pick 

RT Orlando Brown JR 3rd rd pick 

 

The Jets line needs more it doesn't necessarily need a ton more. They will need a long term replacement for Beachum but Edoga is 21 with actual starting experience. He might be the guy ... one thing people forget is how shaky tackles are as rookies. Mangold was great right away, Brick was not Brick until like year 3. 

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1 hour ago, bitonti said:

This is untrue. 

Matt Skura center was 2016 undrafted from Duke

the others were picks but only 1 first rounder actually 

LT Ronnie Stanley 1st rd pick 6th overall 

LG Bradley Bozeman 6th rd pick

C Skura undrafted  

RG Marshal Yanda 3rd rd pick 

RT Orlando Brown JR 3rd rd pick 

 

The Jets line needs more it doesn't necessarily need a ton more. They will need a long term replacement for Beachum but Edoga is 21 with actual starting experience. He might be the guy ... one thing people forget is how shaky tackles are as rookies. Mangold was great right away, Brick was not Brick until like year 3. 

You get the point I’m making here. The Ravens spent draft capital and the effort to get a good line. Douglas knows the way to do it. Hopefully he does it here.

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On 11/19/2019 at 8:07 AM, Maxman said:

Pass blocking was good against the worst team in the NFL. Run blocking was still terrible.

We played Cincy?

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14 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The Cardinals benched $35M RB David Johnson for the recently acquired Kenyan Drake. All based on performance / effectiveness. 

Is David Johnson on his way out in Arizona?  I know we have Bell but Johnson is a freakin stud I would love to have him here plus he played WR in college we could literally have him split out wide with Bell in the backfield or vice versa even

 

I have a culinary boner now

 

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7 hours ago, section314 said:

You get the point I’m making here. The Ravens spent draft capital and the effort to get a good line. Douglas knows the way to do it. Hopefully he does it here.

The ravens also drafted excellent skill position players with Andrews and Marquise Brown

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5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Is David Johnson on his way out in Arizona?  I know we have Bell but Johnson is a freakin stud I would love to have him here plus he played WR in college we could literally have him split out wide with Bell in the backfield or vice versa even

 

I have a culinary boner now

 

Both players are past the "Best by date".  Time to get younger at the position instead of wasting money on vet RB's......they almost never work out.

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8 minutes ago, RobR said:

Both players are past the "Best by date".  Time to get younger at the position instead of wasting money on vet RB's......they almost never work out.

Have you seen the free agent list for WR next offseason?  It’s not good and I’m being polite saying that I mean friggin Robby Anderson is like a top 4 UFA

 

Jets are gonna have to figure out something at WR because both Robby and DT are probably gone and Herndon is an 🥚 

 

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10 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Is David Johnson on his way out in Arizona?  I know we have Bell but Johnson is a freakin stud I would love to have him here plus he played WR in college we could literally have him split out wide with Bell in the backfield or vice versa even

 

I have a culinary boner now

 

He's not decisive and not hitting the hole immediately right now.  Quite honestly, very similar to Bell.  DJ has this jump-cut he does after surveying the blocks ahead of him.  Kliff Kingsbury wants the RB to go where the play is designed to go.  DJ has also had some lingering injury issues but he's close to 100%.....this looks like a scheme-fit and commitment issue.  I'm hoping that Johnson didn't go all Mo Wilkerson and get lazy after getting the big deal.  Under Arians he was a key part of the passing game, catching balls out of the backfield, being split wide, etc.  That's not even happening anymore here....hard to figure out. I'd shy away from DJ for now.  

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13 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Have you seen the free agent list for WR next offseason?  It’s not good and I’m being polite saying that I mean friggin Robby Anderson is like a top 4 UFA

 

Jets are gonna have to figure out something at WR because both Robby and DT are probably gone and Herndon is an 🥚 

 

Even if the Jets somehow do sign Sun God RA he's a complimentary player... as is Crowder 

people are going crazy about line but if a Mike Evans/Deandre Hopkins/TY Hilton legit WR1 shows up in the draft process the Jets need that player for SAM more than a LT who takes 3 years to develop. And I love offensive line. Give sam 3 legit WR instead of just 1 or 2 

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10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Even if the Jets somehow do sign Sun God RA he's a complimentary player... as is Crowder 

people are going crazy about line but if a Mike Evans/Deandre Hopkins/TY Hilton legit WR1 shows up in the draft process the Jets need that player for SAM more than a LT who takes 3 years to develop. And I love offensive line. Give sam 3 legit WR instead of just 1 or 2 

It's the interior of the line which is a bigger issue than any. Worst I have ever seen.

The Tackles are bad but probably the strength of that line. We need two new guards and a centre, wherever we get them. 

The WR core is okay. Not great but not a weakness, certainly not close to the OL as an issue. Robby needs a decent OL as much as Sam. 

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13 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Have you seen the free agent list for WR next offseason?  It’s not good and I’m being polite saying that I mean friggin Robby Anderson is like a top 4 UFA

 

Jets are gonna have to figure out something at WR because both Robby and DT are probably gone and Herndon is an 🥚 

 

I wouldn't rule out a trade for a WR, but we need to take OL and WR (ideally 3OL, 1 WR) with our first 4 picks

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34 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

It's the interior of the line which is a bigger issue than any. Worst I have ever seen.

The Tackles are bad but probably the strength of that line. We need two new guards and a centre, wherever we get them. 

The WR core is okay. Not great but not a weakness, certainly not close to the OL as an issue. Robby needs a decent OL as much as Sam. 

Agree the holes are inside which is why they won't use a first rounder on line. There is no Q Nelson in this draft but there may be an Amari Cooper  

The line has looked far better with Kalil and Winters on the bench. Both of their "tough guy" routines playing through injuries held the line back far more than people realize.  

The WR Corp is missing a real number one that's a giant problem. Especially if this team wants to be a contender. It would like having a line without a left tackle 

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I wouldn't rule out a trade for a WR, but we need to take OL and WR (ideally 3OL, 1 WR) with our first 4 picks

Keep in mind they lack any kind of edge rush and the corners are terrible. the Jets have too many other holes to use 3 picks on the line 

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Agree the holes are inside which is why they won't use a first rounder on line. There is no Q Nelson in this draft but there may be an Amari Cooper  

The line has looked far better with Kalil and Winters on the bench. Both of their "tough guy" routines playing through injuries held the line back far more than people realize.  

The WR Corp is missing a real number one that's a giant problem. Especially if this team wants to be a contender. It would like having a line without a left tackle 

Keep in mind they lack any kind of edge rush and the corners are terrible. the Jets have too many other holes to use 3 picks on the line 

That's fair. 

I just really want to build a top OL. I think it's our best chance to build a elite offense and I really want an elite offense after all these years of barely being able to score. 

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On 11/20/2019 at 7:39 AM, jetstream23 said:

The Cardinals benched $35M RB David Johnson for the recently acquired Kenyan Drake. All based on performance / effectiveness. 

In all fairness, Johnson is all sorts of banged up and not healthy. Not sure why they insist on keep him active Maybe just as an emergency body until Edmonds comes back

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30 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

That's fair. 

I just really want to build a top OL. I think it's our best chance to build a elite offense and I really want an elite offense after all these years of barely being able to score. 

Top lines are super helpful but imagine the offense with a Michael Thomas

 

 

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On 11/19/2019 at 9:40 AM, carlito1171 said:

Well I mean we could take Andrew Thomas with our 1st rd pick...but yea I wouldn’t mind bringing Beachum back if we don’t draft a bluechipper 

Problem is we don't get to see who we get in the draft first, and if we didn't land a great young LT prospect then re-sign Beachum.

This is the curse of Maccagnan the never-plan-ahead GM. Then the cycle would continue as follows: extend Beachum for 2-3 years, then in April says to himself, "Well now we don't need [OL position] anymore so I feel comfortable drafting 2nd-3rd tier position prospects with our higher picks." Then that OLman flops and thus restart the process in March of signing a stopgap to starter money, and then pass on that position in the draft.

You could count on this process even more than The Ryan Fitzpatrick Cycle.

Only way to end it is to end it. Sign FA OLmen and draft them, and it's not going to all happen in 2020. The obvious problem is a GM is tasked with more than just rebuilding an OL alone, so JD isn't likely to triple-up on the position in 1 year (nor is there any type of guarantee that each drafted prospect pans out the way one hoped 10 seconds after drafting him). Hence it takes a few years to really get into a good draft:starter pipeline groove.

I mean there isn't one really good offensive lineman on this roster, and the only one returning who's even earning his mediocre paycheck is the mediocre Harrison simply because he's a good backup making good backup money. 

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