Warfish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: You're comparing a 22 year old kid with 17 games under his belt to a HOF QB at this point of their careers? Come on, that's not fair. Rivers didn't throw 4200 yards until his 6th season. I didn't compare anyone to anyone. The OP did. He, not I, made a claim that Darnold's "floor", i.e. the worst Darnold could possibly be, was Phillip Rivers, a "HOF QB" as you say. Let me say it again, the OP is claiming the worst Darnold could be is equal to a HOF QB. All I did was cite a few facts. The average season production for Phillip Rivers as a starting NFL QB, and the fact that once he was a starter, he pretty much played 16 games per season every season for almost his entire career. And that Darnold has not come close to that as yet. What I didn't mention, is that Phillip River's first two seasons as a starter (2006 & 2007) he led teams that went 14-2 and 11-5. He was 25 that first starting year (or close to it). He threw for 3,300 Yards, over 60% completion rate, and a 22/9 TD/INT Ratio in 2006. He threw for 3,100 yards, over 60% and 1 21/15 TD/INT Ratio in 2007. Now, if you'd like to take these facts (all verifyable at pro football reference), and use them to make an argument, I'm certainly ok with that. If you think Darnold's 7-13 start to his career (yes, at a younger age by a couple years), his 4,400 yards in 20 games so far, his just-sub-of-60% completion rate, his missed time, his 28/25 TD/INT Ratio all compare positively to the equivalent Rivers years, and that you agree Darnold's "floor" is in fact the HOF QB Rivers, great. I'll enjoy reading that argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Matt39 said: Bortles probably as a floor. The last strecth of the season is crucial. He's had two promising starts in a row after a horrific start. 23 games is probably a large enough sample to determine on how to move forward. Too much noise in this thread and not enough acknowledgment of what Darnold's produced to date weighted against other QB's their first two seasons. Someone (Lonelyhearts IIRC) correctly pointed out that people are missing the question. It’s not “is Darnold definitely or definitely not the guy?” It’s “has Darnold shown enough that we can stop looking for the guy?” And the answer to that, so far, is no. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: This is in his what 14th season... sure... How about for all the people making fun of what I said, take a look at Rivers at the beginning of his career. In his first season as a starter, he went 14-2 with 22 TDs and 9 INTs, 61.7%, and 92 QBR, leading the #1 ranked offense in points for, and #4 in yards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, dbatesman said: Someone (Lonelyhearts IIRC) correctly pointed out that people are missing the question. It’s not “is Darnold definitely or definitely not the guy?” It’s “has Darnold shown enough that we can stop looking for the guy?” And the answer to that, so far, is no. "But how could we do that to Sam?!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, TeddEY said: In his first season as a starter, he went 14-2 with 22 TDs and 9 INTs, 61.7%, and 92 QBR, leading the #1 ranked offense in points for, and #4 in yards. Yes after sitting his first 2 seasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Floor is Andy dalton (optimistic view) or Sanchez (pessimistic view), ceiling is romo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Matt39 said: "But how could we do that to Sam?!" I take that back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, Warfish said: the OP is claiming the worst Darnold could be is equal to a HOF QB. this is why yo put them on ignore. the premise is so biased and unreasonable as to make it not worth your time ever to have read it. much less take the time to reason w/ them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost420 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 25 minutes ago, BigRy56 said: At the very least If you say so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 So glad that people on this board can engage in reasonable discussions without calling people stupid and telling them what an idiot they are... Jesus Christ... Agreeing and disagreeing is normal... calling people out and being jackasses is not something that I want to be engaged with. Whether you agree or disagree with the premise of what I THINK, his floor is or not. I still think he is on a trajectory of a QB that makes bad decision in crucial moments and hasn't won a game down the stretch similar to Romo or rivers or stafford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 35 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: This is in his what 14th season... sure... How about for all the people making fun of what I said, take a look at Rivers at the beginning of his career. The beginning of his career was good too. Very good at some points. I’m not making fun of you by any means but...this simply isn’t accurate. This is his first 10 years. Aside from 2007& 2011 He has been excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Matt39 said: I take that back sweet merciful crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Matt39 said: I take that back 1 minute ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said: sweet merciful crap Darnold's floor is Brady 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 27 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: That's how bad this franchise's QB play has been since the merger. which is why simply stating that Sam will become a really good QB is a whole lotta magical thinking... he's NOT showing enough signs... Blake phukkng Bortles threw for 35 TD in his 2nd year, FFS!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: The beginning of his career was good too. Very good at some points. I’m not making fun of you by any means but...this simply isn’t accurate. This is his first 10 years. Aside from 2007& 2011 He has been excellent. He started in his 3rd year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Just now, jgb said: Floor is Andy dalton, ceiling is romo Floor is hardwood. Ceiling is popcorn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallinPB Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Sam's floor is Andy Dalton and his ceiling is Aaron Rodgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Killa Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: He started in his 3rd year! Okay? What does that have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: So glad that people on this board can engage in reasonable discussions without calling people stupid and telling them what an idiot they are... Jesus Christ... In fairness VoR, you Buttfumble people (me included) ALOT, which is basically saying the same thing without saying it. And I don't think I've ever called you stupid. All I'm saying is this: trying to claim a player's floor is equal to a HOF-level QB is, IMO, a bit presumptuous when the player in question has been the 31st and 28th (so far) rated QB in his first two years, respectively. Lets see Darnold put up a "Rivers-like" season first. That might justify the earliest beginnings of some claim to equivalence. Otherwise, claims like this, today, combined with your penchant to buttfumble any and all Darnold criticism, reads as a bit....biased, to say the least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Lurker Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 His floor is linoleum and his ceiling is drywall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Yes after sitting his first 2 seasons... You asked what he did early in his career. I answered - Much, much better than Darnold. You then moved the goalposts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Warfish said: In fairness VoR, you Buttfumble people (me included) ALOT, which is basically saying the same thing without saying it. No, that is simply +1, -1 formula agreeing or disagree... I am not calling you an idiot or saying that your argument is idiotic... Or that I should go sit in a microwave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said: The beginning of his career was good too. Very good at some points. I’m not making fun of you by any means but...this simply isn’t accurate. This is his first 10 years. Aside from 2007& 2011 He has been excellent. Darnold has a long way to go to get to the "aside from" years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 minute ago, TeddEY said: You asked what he did early in his career. I answered - Much, much better than Darnold. You then moved the goalposts. Yes, game to game... in his first season he was similar... up and down... good games and bad Overall the numbers look better because he played the whole season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, TeddEY said: You asked what he did early in his career. I answered - Much, much better than Darnold. You then moved the goalposts. if he sat 2 years, they would then excuse that he hasnt played enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: No, that is simply +1, -1 formula agreeing or disagree... I am not calling you an idiot or saying that your argument is idiotic... Or that I should go sit in a microwave. You most certainly should NOT go sit in a microwave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Just now, The Voice of Reason said: Yes, game to game... in his first season he was similar... up and down... good games and bad Overall the numbers look better because he played the whole season Overall the numbers look better because it's Philip Rivers. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Patriot Killa said: An AJ Green or Mike Evans type of WR would be ideal.. does Gase’s schemes even allow for any other WR besides the Slot to do well though? Seems like everyone else gets froze out except Crowder and occasionally the TE’s. we definitely need a big bodied WR though. If Sam gets a connection with one of those types of guys. It’s going to be fun to watch Sam toss it up on a 50/50 because Sam does have terrific ball placement most of the time. It’ll be fun. Any OC worth his salt can scheme in players like you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 4 hours ago, varjet said: Rivers is a good example I think of where Darnold could end up. Very good QB that may not be able to carry a team on his back. Matthew Stafford is another example. I am seeing Darnold on the team a long time. I am interested to see where Trubisky, Marriott and Winston end up. Darnold will be not be Bortles. But I would try to explain to Darnold that he can’t be overpaid, because that will leave less money for supporting cast. The most important asset for the Jets are draft picks. They need cheaper players and will not be able to afford to spend money on ILBs and mediocre DL anymore. Bortles & Jameis? Thank you for your support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Just now, The Voice of Reason said: Yes, game to game... in his first season he was similar... up and down... good games and bad Overall the numbers look better because he played the whole season This is simply factually incorrect. Overall, the numbers look better because he was better. The only thing guaranteed to be better with more games is total numbers. River's TD/INT ratio was better, his completion percentage is better, his passer rating was better, and even, his percentage of "good games" to "bad" was better. The idea that his floor is Rivers is an opinion, it's a silly one with no basis in reality, but you're right, it's an opinion. The idea that they're comparable early in their careers, is demonstrably incorrect on just about every measurable level you can think of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losmeister Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said: Overall the numbers look better because it's Philip Rivers. 16 games 9 INT, Sam 7 games 10 INT... and counting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: Yes, game to game... in his first season he was similar... up and down... good games and bad Overall the numbers look better because he played the whole season https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prestige Worldwide Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 4 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: This is more or less the point I was trying to get at. Ok I get your point. Winning ugly is better than losing pretty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 39 minutes ago, Warfish said: I didn't compare anyone to anyone. The OP did. He, not I, made a claim that Darnold's "floor", i.e. the worst Darnold could possibly be, was Phillip Rivers, a "HOF QB" as you say. Let me say it again, the OP is claiming the worst Darnold could be is equal to a HOF QB. All I did was cite a few facts. The average season production for Phillip Rivers as a starting NFL QB, and the fact that once he was a starter, he pretty much played 16 games per season every season for almost his entire career. And that Darnold has not come close to that as yet. What I didn't mention, is that Phillip River's first two seasons as a starter (2006 & 2007) he led teams that went 14-2 and 11-5. He was 25 that first starting year (or close to it). He threw for 3,300 Yards, over 60% completion rate, and a 22/9 TD/INT Ratio in 2006. He threw for 3,100 yards, over 60% and 1 21/15 TD/INT Ratio in 2007. Now, if you'd like to take these facts (all verifyable at pro football reference), and use them to make an argument, I'm certainly ok with that. If you think Darnold's 7-13 start to his career (yes, at a younger age by a couple years), his 4,400 yards in 20 games so far, his just-sub-of-60% completion rate, his missed time, his 28/25 TD/INT Ratio all compare positively to the equivalent Rivers years, and that you agree Darnold's "floor" is in fact the HOF QB Rivers, great. I'll enjoy reading that argument. I don't agree with anything said about his "floor". I said it's unfair to compare any young starter, one with fewer than two seasons played numbers to a 4200 yards per season average. Especially when Rivers average season is more like 3600 per. Wins and loses, no matter how we want to pin them all on the QB, especially if it helps our argument is just pointless. Unless we're trying to claim that the Chargers and Jets had the same talent level. Ad I said, comparing someone just starting to a HOF player is kind of wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UntouchableCrew Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Rivers turned 25 in his first year as a starter, Darnold was 21. Doesn't change the numbers but Rivers had two years on the bench and walked into a great situation. Not really an apples to apples comparison. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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