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Leonard Williams Trade

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well by the time we were in October I was of course happy they traded him. But what more could - or would - they have done differently if they acted earlier, when they should have, if they had another $14MM in 2019 cap room when FA began? Would we still have headed into this season with nothing more than the same OL additions we made (re-signing Harrison, trading for damaged goods Osemele, and drafting Edoga; an uninspiring group overall, which then indirectly led to the panic spending of another $8MM on Kalil).

Point is only that it's more than just the benefit of another $11MM or $14MM in 2020. It only looks like that today. 

yep.  hindsight is 20-20 and consider how bad the previous guy did.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well by the time we were in October I was of course happy they traded him. But what more could - or would - they have done differently if they acted earlier, when they should have, if they had another $14MM in 2019 cap room when FA began? Would we still have headed into this season with nothing more than the same OL additions we made (re-signing Harrison, trading for damaged goods Osemele, and drafting Edoga; an uninspiring group overall, which then indirectly led to the panic spending of another $8MM on Kalil).

Point is only that it's more than just the benefit of another $11MM or $14MM in 2020. It only looks like that today. 

While your points are strong the one thing being left out is that the Jets wanted Leo.  Adam Gase was a Leo fan of sorts after having played games against him where Leo actually showed up. He saw there was at least potential there. Gase was not afraid to get rid of guys as we saw.  I'm sure they had designs on the Williams bros DL idea that many others did. Especially in Leo's contract year. Everything was set up for that guy to tear through the league and either be a slam dunk resigning for the Jets or a comp 3rd after having a great year for us.  The great year and a 3rd is just as valuable as the 2nd they could have gotten for him earlier. A 1st is not realistic  IMO. 

The aspect of this trade that I like most is that it only took these guys 1/2 of the season to cut bait. They had high hopes, the guy blew balls and they got the Giants to give 2 draft picks for him. Nice and neat like. The salary was already guaranteed at that point and the money does very little at this point.  

Ya know what I think?  I think Joe Douglas called Gettleman and said "We're in diffferent conferences. We both live in the same house. Why the hell aren't we working together to help eachother? This Jets/Giants no trade zone is dumb"  Gettleman agreed. JD ate the salary for the trade but still owes Gettleman a solid.  I bet we see more transactions between the two teams moving forward. Well.... at least as long as Gettleman has a job that is. 

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2 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

Exactly. I can't understand the complaints about this trade.  I totally get the idea that he was a bust for us. Hell I was using him to defend Macc foe a while. I wanted him to succeed as much as anyone. I thought Gregg Williams would give him a huge opportunity to become who we hoped he was. Turns out he actually sucks. So getting a very high 3rd and a 5th(worst case) for him is nothing short of a windfall for the Jets. 

I am one who believes Gettleman will sign him but it will be for less than the $15 mil he's hoping after he checks out the FA opps. He will sign fore 6-8 mil per season and Gettleman will at least be able to say he got him for a bargain.  I'm glad he's gone and look forward to seeing which DT JD takes with the pic lol 

 

Yep.  The absolute most I thought we could hope for was a late 2nd, and more likely a late 3rd or even a 4th.  Getting an early 3rd and 4th or 5th was a heist.  

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21 hours ago, Jets723 said:

The giants intend to sign him too so good chance we will be getting a 4th next year

Lets hope they keep losing into next year and that could then be a high 4th if they do indeed sign him. These are picks that we or I have to hope JD can net some really good players for either eventual starting or backup/depth roles at Oline, WR, CB, etc. Have been reading articles on the CBs that are surprising with Bless and Maulet, but we have absolutely nobody behind them other than guys like Canady, Brown, etc. and a few others all of which have little to no exp. and are real unknowns. We seriously need to build that position through the draft and not as much with FA. Johnson, Hairston, etc. are guys we either paid too much for with $ like Johns, and Hairston with the low round draft pick we provided, etc. Heck if a team takes a 6th or 7th rounder for a CB then he probably in no good and he has struggled. If we wouldn't have pulled him when we did against the Giants in favor of Bless we likely lose that game and are maybe sitting hear as aggravated as them and their fans are right now. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:46 PM, Sperm Edwards said:
Amazing how we lost the one pick for years who was you-know-who’s pride and joy best pick, in what should have been his highest-motivation year as a UFA after this season, and on the field the team has missed him less than not at all.
It just sucks that we had to absorb so much of his remaining salary to get mid-round picks for this turd. We paid all but the last 2 weeks of his $13-14MM salary just to pry a couple future mid-round picks. So yes we got back a nice 3rd round pick (plus a mid-rounder in 2021 which has a round lower value for 2020), but it wasn’t a straight-up “free” trade; we bought that 3rd round pick from the Giants for most of his remaining $6MM. 
Should have just rescinded the 5th year option in March, take the 3rd round comp pick in 2020, and saved $11MM in cap room. Never mind the hindsight benefit we’re using: if he got injured in those first 7 weeks (like so many other Jets) we’d have ended up with nothing. 


Comp pick would be at the end of third. Giants 3rd will be at the very top of the 3rd — virtually a 2d. And the 4th rd pick will be high — pretty much the same as the comp pick. This trade was an absolute no-brainer. And why are you so concerned about the payroll and cap? Are you a Johnson heir?


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Who gives a crap hoot if Williams was selected 6th in the draft.  After five years, I mean who cares? He was becoming a sunken cost... so, there move on.  Douglas is making the decisions now anyway.  Williams isn't his mistake.

This. Thank you.


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On 11/25/2019 at 8:36 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

Now? No, of course not. 

But if we let him hit the FA pool in 2019 by rescinding the 5th year option? Yes.

A comp pick would have been based on his contract value as a UFA in March 2019, not a 2020 UFA contract that surely will be much lower (or if the Giants do extend him, what it would have been). That would have been enough to net the Jets a 3rd rounder, and that's just for letting him go, not even for trading him back then.

Leo lost a lot of value in the first half of this year, compounded with losing still more value by underwhelming for the Giants. He played better before this year, plus now everyone can see he didn't get any better with a great-reputation DC coaching him nor with a change of scenery to the Giants, just as he's entered what should be his prime (in a contract year, no less). 

He was on a trajectory towards a $15-18MM/year contract as a (then technically still 24 year-old) UFA with his #6 overall pedigree, 4 years starting experience with generally above-average - even if lesser than initially expected/hoped - play, and playing for the Bowles Jets as his built-in excuse. Even Sheldon Richardson - 4 years older, with all his psycho/personal baggage, and with 3 teams in 3 straight seasons passing on extending him - got $12-13MM/year that'll likely be enough to net Minnesota a 3rd).

I think you’re missing out on the fact that any comp pick awarded for Leo wouldn’t be until the 2021 draft, not 2020.  So by that fact, the future late 3rd comp pick (if one was even awarded) would be roughly equal to a late 4th In 2020.  Add in the fact that there is also a conditional 4th/5th round pick looming, I think Douglass absolutely maximized Leo’s value the best he could.  

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But wait what about darron lee? Are we missing him? Is he doing well on his other team?

what about the lousiville slugger

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Darron Lee's stat line in KC is laughable. He wont even be on their team next year. 

3 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

But wait what about darron lee? Are we missing him? Is he doing well on his other team?

what about the lousiville slugger

 

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Points I'd consider:

More interesting to me than this trade in particular is that Douglas has come in and in 5 months made fairly substantial trades with the Patriots and Giants.  Those are two teams that we kept hearing won't deal with us. 

Even if Gettelman signs Williams, I think that the deal says it has to be before the new league year.  If he tests free agency, or they have a handshake deal, we still get the lower pick.  I think the Saints did that with Vilma.  Bottom line, I don't think that we are getting a 4th.  I am pretty sure that Williams will get well north of $6M per.  Whoever said that is well off in value. I think Henry Anderson is getting $8.5M per.  

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

I think you’re missing out on the fact that any comp pick awarded for Leo wouldn’t be until the 2021 draft, not 2020.  So by that fact, the future late 3rd comp pick (if one was even awarded) would be roughly equal to a late 4th In 2020.  Add in the fact that there is also a conditional 4th/5th round pick looming, I think Douglass absolutely maximized Leo’s value the best he could.  

I don't think @Sperm Edwards was missing that at all.  He was lamenting the fact that they didn't just rescind the option.  If they'd done that, Williams would have signed a free agent deal this offseason - presumably a lucrative one - and he would be qualify for a 2020 comp pick.  The issue with that is that Bell and Mosley would surely cancel him and the rest of our FA losses out, so we'd net nothing.  Presumably, Sperm was looking at this move as part of a holistic approach to having a better offseason.  It's hard not to.

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14 minutes ago, DLJ said:

On the giants boards they’re saying “ they fleeced the hapless Jets”


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Well they were until we played each other. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:51 PM, slimjasi said:

I like Jones, but Darnold does things in the pocket that he can’t do 

yea like not fumble when the wind blows

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6 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:


Comp pick would be at the end of third. Giants 3rd will be at the very top of the 3rd — virtually a 2d. And the 4th rd pick will be high — pretty much the same as the comp pick. This trade was an absolute no-brainer. And why are you so concerned about the payroll and cap? Are you a Johnson heir?


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Obviously I'm very concerned about Johnson's personal savings. Good call. 

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6 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

I think you’re missing out on the fact that any comp pick awarded for Leo wouldn’t be until the 2021 draft, not 2020.  So by that fact, the future late 3rd comp pick (if one was even awarded) would be roughly equal to a late 4th In 2020.  Add in the fact that there is also a conditional 4th/5th round pick looming, I think Douglass absolutely maximized Leo’s value the best he could.  

No, you're 100% totally wrong here. Rescinding the 5th year option (if that's really the best we could have done this past March, which I very much doubt) would result in a pick in 2020 not 2021. 

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Points I'd consider:

More interesting to me than this trade in particular is that Douglas has come in and in 5 months made fairly substantial trades with the Patriots and Giants.  Those are two teams that we kept hearing won't deal with us. 

Even if Gettelman signs Williams, I think that the deal says it has to be before the new league year.  If he tests free agency, or they have a handshake deal, we still get the lower pick.  I think the Saints did that with Vilma.  Bottom line, I don't think that we are getting a 4th.  I am pretty sure that Williams will get well north of $6M per.  Whoever said that is well off in value. I think Henry Anderson is getting $8.5M per.  

I don't think @Sperm Edwards was missing that at all.  He was lamenting the fact that they didn't just rescind the option.  If they'd done that, Williams would have signed a free agent deal this offseason - presumably a lucrative one - and he would be qualify for a 2020 comp pick.  The issue with that is that Bell and Mosley would surely cancel him and the rest of our FA losses out, so we'd net nothing.  Presumably, Sperm was looking at this move as part of a holistic approach to having a better offseason.  It's hard not to.

#1 goal would be to trade him at that point, of course. Teams don't typically purchase 3rd round picks for 8 figures. I have a hard time believing his top trade value in Feb/March 2019 (before FA and before the draft) was way down around pick #100 two drafts into the future, when they were able to get more than that in the upcoming draft, midseason, from a team that was all but mathematically eliminated. 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, you're 100% totally wrong here. Rescinding the 5th year option (if that's really the best we could have done this past March, which I very much doubt) would result in a pick in 2020 not 2021. 

I don’t believe they can just rescind the option once it was picked up, they would have to straight up release him and thus not be eligible for a compensatory pick. 

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16 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I don’t believe they can just rescind the option once it was picked up, they would have to straight up release him and thus not be eligible for a compensatory pick. 

Wrong again -- they absolutely could have rescinded it. The Jets did it with Coples, for example. The Dolphins just did it with Ja'Wuan James last spring. 

Regardless, the obvious goal would have been trading him earlier when his trade value was higher, not (effectively) cutting him. Before paying him all that cash; before teams already locked themselves into purportedly-lesser DTs; before teams already burned high picks in the 2019 draft; and in general before 90% of the teams then had no interest because they were either eliminated or no longer had this immediate need.

The Giants foolishly coming to our rescue - which itself required a veteran starter's cash to get it - is welcome (just like any "lucky" outcome is also welcome), but that doesn't mean we were smart; just that the Giants were even dumber. The Jets put themselves in a position of possibly finding no trade partner if they wanted to dump him or, if he'd had a breakout season, finally extend him at the most expensive point in his career. 

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The Williams trade was a great trade for the Jets.  They received a high 3rd rounder in 2020 and most likely a 4th rounder (5th if not retained by the Giants) in 2021.  Had they let him walk they probably would have received a supplemental late 3rd (actually 4th as the pick is tacked on at the end of the 3rd round) in 2021. 

This for a player they would not have retained.

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23 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Wrong again -- they absolutely could have rescinded it. The Jets did it with Coples, for example. The Dolphins just did it with Ja'Wuan James last spring. 

Regardless, the obvious goal would have been trading him earlier when his trade value was higher, not (effectively) cutting him. Before paying him all that cash; before teams already locked themselves into purportedly-lesser DTs; before teams already burned high picks in the 2019 draft; and in general before 90% of the teams then had no interest because they were either eliminated or no longer had this immediate need.

The Giants foolishly coming to our rescue - which itself required a veteran starter's cash to get it - is welcome (just like any "lucky" outcome is also welcome), but that doesn't mean we were smart; just that the Giants were even dumber. The Jets put themselves in a position of possibly finding no trade partner if they wanted to dump him or, if he'd had a breakout season, finally extend him at the most expensive point in his career. 

I think you need to read up on the 5th year option.  The Jets CUT Coples.  Your understanding of the timelines and the particulars are way off here.  
 

But I get your premise, IF the Jets had the foresight earlier, they may have been able to get the picks a year early.  

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19 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I think you need to read up on the 5th year option.  The Jets CUT Coples.  Your understanding of the timelines and the particulars are way off here.  
 

But I get your premise, IF the Jets had the foresight earlier, they may have been able to get the picks a year early.  

No, I understand it perfectly:

The Jets cut Coples midseason but they had already exercised his 5th year option in the spring; if that fully guaranteed his 5th year for skill, then cutting him midseason wouldn't have done squat (they'd still owe it). Not anymore than it would make a difference if the Jets cut Trumaine Johnson last year midseason; they'd still owe him the following year's guaranteed money. The Jets cut Coples midseason because, if he'd sustained an injury over the balance of the season, then that 5th year option would have been guaranteed. 

I also gave you another example with J.James. Miami rescinded his 5th year option for 2018 in March of that year.

My premise is: one, yes that they could have gotten a pick a year earlier (which is only worse because you-know-who would have been the one doing the drafting, but that's not how anyone plans ahead); two, that IF they had to wait until 2 and 3 drafts later to see any trade compensation that it would have been a higher pick and in both cases it would have saved another starter's salary to use on someone actually useful. 

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16 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

"About 90% of the trades for established veterans made in the NFL this year are paying major dividends for the teams that acquired them. With two exceptions with likely massive ramifications - Ramsey (Rams) and Williams (Giants)"

-Jason La Canfora

896008422_giphy(19).gif.2c459d0cca735adddad8fae67e58546c.gif

 

Lazy Leo is going to be the straw that breaks David Gettleman's back.

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Any time you unload a 1st round player  for a 3rd , there's no 'good' in it  - we'll see what that player turns out to be.

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1 hour ago, Bomberjet said:

Any time you unload a 1st round player  for a 3rd , there's no 'good' in it  - we'll see what that player turns out to be.

Not really true.  If we weren't gonn pay the play then its better to try and get a better package a compensatory 3rd rounder(95-99 overall).  Instead we get a high 3rd rounder(66-69) and possibly a 4th next year.  Those are premium draft spots

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On 11/24/2019 at 4:35 PM, FlightBoyz said:

Come guy's he does the little things that us fans don't see 😉

hahah "he's double teamed every snap"

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The trade looks better by the week, We have Shepard and Fatukasi, who are playing at a higher level with out the lazy loser.

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5 minutes ago, TokyoJetsFan said:

whoever double teamed this guy wasted resources

Yeah but that was a run for no gain. And he did force the cut back. I think DT is a tough position to evaluate but also it’s egregious to keep taking DTs in the top 10. 

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On 11/26/2019 at 8:25 AM, Bruce Harper said:


Comp pick would be at the end of third. Giants 3rd will be at the very top of the 3rd — virtually a 2d. And the 4th rd pick will be high — pretty much the same as the comp pick. This trade was an absolute no-brainer. And why are you so concerned about the payroll and cap? Are you a Johnson heir?


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In addition to the draft picks haul Gettlemen gave us we don't have to sign Leo to a guaranteed 45-50M long term contract. 

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5 hours ago, Jets723 said:

Not really true.  If we weren't gonn pay the play then its better to try and get a better package a compensatory 3rd rounder(95-99 overall).  Instead we get a high 3rd rounder(66-69) and possibly a 4th next year.  Those are premium draft spots

That's not the point - ANY time , with ANY player , with ANY team that was drafted high in the 1st round , you rid him for a 3rd round pick, its NOT A GOOD deal. 

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4 hours ago, Bomberjet said:

That's not the point - ANY time , with ANY player , with ANY team that was drafted high in the 1st round , you rid him for a 3rd round pick, its NOT A GOOD deal. 

Yes it is, why, because he was over drafted, and isn’t worth a 3rd or the 14 mill salary. We did well to cut our loss.

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That's not the point - ANY time , with ANY player , with ANY team that was drafted high in the 1st round , you rid him for a 3rd round pick, its NOT A GOOD deal. 


If it’s the best you can get for him, yes, it is.

Gettleman gave Douglas the most we could have gotten for Williams at the time. Thus, it was a good trade.

Don’t blame Douglas for Leo failing to live up to his pick status. That’s on Macc. It’s also on Macc that Leo wasn’t traded earlier when we might have gotten more.
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