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Leonard Williams Trade

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13 hours ago, kdels62 said:

he did force the cut back.

seek help

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14 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

Yes it is, why, because he was over drafted, and isn’t worth a 3rd or the 14 mill salary. We did well to cut our loss.

Your looking at from the surface, and that's not what this is all about .  I'm talking about ANY situation that involves unloading a 1st round pick for peanuts. I don't recall may teams in the league that 'cut their losses' on a top 10 pick. Building a team through the draft with this setback and saying 'cut our losses'? - not good thing.

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13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


If it’s the best you can get for him, yes, it is.

Gettleman gave Douglas the most we could have gotten for Williams at the time. Thus, it was a good trade.

Don’t blame Douglas for Leo failing to live up to his pick status. That’s on Macc. It’s also on Macc that Leo wasn’t traded earlier when we might have gotten more.

it has less to do with 'the best you can get' and more to do with complete FAIL, by the Jets or any organization or any org in any sport ,  for that matter. It's the fundamentals of the problem that goes further down that what is at the surface , being Williams.

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1 hour ago, Bomberjet said:

Your looking at from the surface, and that's not what this is all about .  I'm talking about ANY situation that involves unloading a 1st round pick for peanuts. I don't recall may teams in the league that 'cut their losses' on a top 10 pick. Building a team through the draft with this setback and saying 'cut our losses'? - not good thing.

Well the news is Maccagnan was awful. Although if Williams was any good we won’t of traded him.

I personally think a 3rd is a good return for a player that has zero impact and isn’t very good.

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I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

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2 hours ago, roscoeword said:

I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

Charlie cassserly (sp)

mario Williams 

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2 hours ago, roscoeword said:

I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

Not true at all. Many on the board wanted Beasley. Some were hoping Scherff would fall and settled on Williams. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:32 PM, southparkcpa said:

That bum......    MAC sucks, that is all. 

Mac sucks? OK. I get that. God knows there's plenty to illustrate your point. However, in the case of Leonard Williams, you're trying to tell me you thought Mac should have chosen someone else? Williams was widely considered to be the Best player in the draft. You knew going into that draft that Mac was the kind of guy that would take the BPA? Mac's tendencies was something he was quite vocal about prior to his first draft in town. 

And be honest, if Mac had opted to draft for Need and taken someone else instead of Williams, how loud would you be b*tching right now that Mac should have taken LEONARD WILLIAMS?

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27 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

Mac sucks? OK. I get that. God knows there's plenty to illustrate your point. However, in the case of Leonard Williams, you're trying to tell me you thought Mac should have chosen someone else? Williams was widely considered to be the Best player in the draft. You knew going into that draft that Mac was the kind of guy that would take the BPA? Mac's tendencies was something he was quite vocal about prior to his first draft in town. 

And be honest, if Mac had opted to draft for Need and taken someone else instead of Williams, how loud would you be b*tching right now that Mac should have taken LEONARD WILLIAMS?

I actually agree with you....   it’s not the Williams pick. It’s his very poor handling of the drafts he’s been in charge of.   Williams was a safe pick, probably would have done it myself. 

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1 hour ago, southparkcpa said:

I actually agree with you....   it’s not the Williams pick. It’s his very poor handling of the drafts he’s been in charge of.   Williams was a safe pick, probably would have done it myself. 

Williams was not an awful pick when made, and he could have helped the Jets make the playoffs his first year.   Much of his issue was how he was used and developed.  Bowles should have switched defenses to better utilize the players he had. 

The biggest problem with Williams was not trading him before this season.  It was clear to everyone that he really was not needed for this team.  

So yes, the Jets theoretically “fleeced” the Giants in the trade.  It should be noted that the Jets are paying virtually all of his salary for 2019.  The Giants only assumed around $2mm of his $18mm 2019 cost.  So for basically $6+mm, the Jets bought the upgrade from a 2021 4th round comp pick to a 2020 Giants third round pick.   That could end up being a starting C or G-likely ok move. 

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1 minute ago, varjet said:

Williams was not an awful pick when made, and he could have helped the Jets make the playoffs his first year.   Much of his issue was how he was used and developed.  Bowles should have switched defenses to better utilize the players he had. 

The biggest problem with Williams was not trading him before this season.  It was clear to everyone that he really was not needed for this team.  

So yes, the Jets theoretically “fleeced” the Giants in the trade.  It should be noted that the Jets are paying virtually all of his salary for 2019.  The Giants only assumed around $2mm of his $18mm 2019 cost.  So for basically $6+mm, the Jets bought the upgrade from a 2021 4th round comp pick to a 2020 Giants third round pick.   That could end up being a starting C or G-likely ok move. 

Exactly.  You can’t blame the Jets for making that pick.  He was considered a top 3 pick and he fell in our laps.  Yes I understand he didn’t become a monster but it’s not like he was a bust either.  In the end we weren’t gonna resign him and picked up a premium draft pick this year and possibly another 4th next year.  Now people are paranoid about Quinnen Williams lol.  I try to focus on the future and forget the past otherwise you drive yourself crazy 

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The Jets, at that point, had spent first round picks on interior defensive linemen in three of the prior four drafts. Williams fell because of positional value at a position the Jets already had a surplus at and shoulder injuries. There were several reasons to pass on him. Maccagnan annually worked the phones terribly and then just made a simple “draft the best player” choice that continued to work out poorly.

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38 minutes ago, varjet said:

Williams was not an awful pick when made, and he could have helped the Jets make the playoffs his first year.   Much of his issue was how he was used and developed.  Bowles should have switched defenses to better utilize the players he had. 

The biggest problem with Williams was not trading him before this season.  It was clear to everyone that he really was not needed for this team.  

So yes, the Jets theoretically “fleeced” the Giants in the trade.  It should be noted that the Jets are paying virtually all of his salary for 2019.  The Giants only assumed around $2mm of his $18mm 2019 cost.  So for basically $6+mm, the Jets bought the upgrade from a 2021 4th round comp pick to a 2020 Giants third round pick.   That could end up being a starting C or G-likely ok move. 

your scenario is better than an ok move. A starting center or guard vs a DT that we obviously don't need? money doesn't matter imo as the cap is not an issue.

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Most of you here are very happy with this trade, and I don’t blame you, I am too. We got something back for a player we invested a premium pick on, but who was no longer needed once we invested another even more premium pick on someone who is basically the same player.

However, if I was a Giants fan, I’d be happy also. You got a dependable, albeit unspectacular 25 year old starter who never misses a game, and who plays a position where they have no other solid performers besides their rookie Lawrence.

The Giants got a half season free look since we are paying his ‘19 salary for them. If they decide not to re sign him, they probably get the 3rd  back with a compensatory pick. So they really gave up nothing more then a future 4th pick if he doesn’t return.

It was a gamble worth taking because let’s be honest. We were down on LW as much because of where we took him as for his “production”. Them signing that same player, at 25 years old, the one who lines up every game as a starter for what it cost them, is a trade I would make every day. A 3rd and a future 4th for a guy you can plug in for 10 more years isn’t a lot to give up.

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16 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Most of you here are very happy with this trade, and I don’t blame you, I am too. We got something back for a player we invested a premium pick on, but who was no longer needed once we invested another even more premium pick on someone who is basically the same player.

However, if I was a Giants fan, I’d be happy also. You got a dependable, albeit unspectacular 25 year old starter who never misses a game, and who plays a position where they have no other solid performers besides their rookie Lawrence.

The Giants got a half season free look since we are paying his ‘19 salary for them. If they decide not to re sign him, they probably get the 3rd  back with a compensatory pick. So they really gave up nothing more then a future 4th pick if he doesn’t return.

It was a gamble worth taking because let’s be honest. We were down on LW as much because of where we took him as for his “production”. Them signing that same player, at 25 years old, the one who lines up every game as a starter for what it cost them, is a trade I would make every day. A 3rd and a future 4th for a guy you can plug in for 10 more years isn’t a lot to give up.

The 3rd round picks are in different years which changes value and comp picks are at the end of the 3rd round where as the giants 3rd, that we got, is a high 3rd round round pick. 2020 high 3rd rounder > 2021 low 3rd rounder. 2 very different types of 3rd round picks is all that I’m explaining. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:32 PM, Rhg1084 said:

A high pick in the 3rd and 4th round next year will be very valuable. Douglas should have a lot of ammunition this offseason to build a contender next year 

Usually we wait for the offseason to get all jacked up on unrealistic expectations that inevitably blow up in our faces by Halloween.

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:49 PM, phill1c said:

hmmm,

Isn't everyone saying the same thing about Quinnen Williams?

I understand what the problem is: people think every high first-round DT has to be Kris Jenkins and Charles Haley in one. DT is about doing the dirty work, which doesn't always show up on a stat sheet.

Meanwhile, NOBODY can run on the Jets. He's a big part of that, if only because he takes rotations.

Still not sure the pick made sense.  But reality is DL guys and especillay DTs get rotated in and out based on down and distance every play. There are not a lot of every down DL guys. Teams have run, passing, goal lines 3 or 4 man fronts moving in and out every play. 

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2 hours ago, EdReed22 said:

Leonard williams looks tough but plays soft.

Can't find it, but someone here a while back posted a picture of Khalil Mack cut like he lives in the gym next to Leo poolside looking like he lives on drive thru and Bud heavies. 

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4 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

I actually agree with you....   it’s not the Williams pick. It’s his very poor handling of the drafts he’s been in charge of.   Williams was a safe pick, probably would have done it myself. 

Thank you. I appreciate your candor about this. This at least lends a little structure to your post.

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38 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Still not sure the pick made sense.  But reality is DL guys and especillay DTs get rotated in and out based on down and distance every play. There are not a lot of every down DL guys. Teams have run, passing, goal lines 3 or 4 man fronts moving in and out every play. 

It probably didn't. But it was not without support.

Look, IMO, and I've said this throughout the decade, "DT is not as impactful a position as it once was." but just because that's MY belief doesn't mean that the NFL in general believes it.

Leonard and Quinnen Williams were slotted to be taken at or near where they were whether the Jets or some other team picked them. And, IMO, of the available players slotted by the NFL talent-rating universe, he was a reasonable pick. because big guys who are supposed to disrupt offenses are in demand.

Now, was it the best pick for the Jets? I say, better than the edge rusher because of the DL talent deterioration over the last few years. Now, in the end, they traded Leonard Williams, an admission that he never lived up to their expectations. But, really, what should the expectations be for a DT in a 3-4? It's reasonable for a DL in a 3-4 to have a good game and have one statistic, especially if there's a significant rotation in place.

What the expectations people seem to have for this kid seems more like you'd expect from DE or DT in 4-3, which he definitely is not playing. And then there's the fact that whatever he turns out to be, he's not reached his potential 11 games into his career.

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2 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

The 3rd round picks are in different years which changes value and comp picks are at the end of the 3rd round where as the giants 3rd, that we got, is a high 3rd round round pick. 2020 high 3rd rounder > 2021 low 3rd rounder. 2 very different types of 3rd round picks is all that I’m explaining. 

Yes, I understand how it works, that’s my bad for not explaining it properly I guess.

My main point is, I’m happy with the trade as a Jets fan, at least we got something back for a guy who never lived up to the potential of where he was picked.

At the same time though, the Giants didn’t overpay for a guy who can start for them for 8-10 years (assuming they sign him at a reasonable cost) for a free half season and a 3rd and a future mid round pick.

All in all I think it was a fair deal for both teams. I don’t buy into the narrative that Douglas fleeced the Giants.

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4 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

All in all I think it was a fair deal for both teams. I don’t buy into the narrative that Douglas fleeced the Giants.

Teams need guys to take snaps inside. Williams isn't a great or good pass rusher, but he plays decently inside and has a good history of staying healthy. That's valuable.

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10 hours ago, roscoeword said:

I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

I do blame Macc. When you EVERYBODY and the experts you're referring to are the talking heads but the only evaluations that count are made by the GM's and five of them passed on the 'best player' in the draft and no other team wanted the 'best player' enough to trade up for Leo. Plus, Macc made the safe pick to minimize any potential negative fallout from the pick.

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5 hours ago, varjet said:

So yes, the Jets theoretically “fleeced” the Giants in the trade.  It should be noted that the Jets are paying virtually all of his salary for 2019.  The Giants only assumed around $2mm of his $18mm 2019 cost.  So for basically $6+mm, the Jets bought the upgrade from a 2021 4th round comp pick to a 2020 Giants third round pick.   That could end up being a starting C or G-likely ok move. 

The salary we picked up wasn't going to help us this year. Also, don't forget about the conditional 4th or the 5th in addition to the 3rd round pick. Both picks also look to be high in their respective rounds.

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I don't blame mac for drafting Leo williams.  I do blame him for not dealing him when we allegedly had better offers and drafting Leo Williams version 2.0

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38 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Yes, I understand how it works, that’s my bad for not explaining it properly I guess.

My main point is, I’m happy with the trade as a Jets fan, at least we got something back for a guy who never lived up to the potential of where he was picked.

At the same time though, the Giants didn’t overpay for a guy who can start for them for 8-10 years (assuming they sign him at a reasonable cost) for a free half season and a 3rd and a future mid round pick.

All in all I think it was a fair deal for both teams. I don’t buy into the narrative that Douglas fleeced the Giants.

Gotcha. I personally think it was a bad trade for the Giants but we just value Leo differently. I think it was a poor choice to spend decent draft capital AND overpay him(almost a certainty given Leo’s draft slot and contract expectation).

We will have to see how it pans out but even if Leo turns out good, it’s surely not a given based on his underachieving on the Jets and they could probably find a JAG for cheaper and not waste draft picks that could do the same thing. 

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13 hours ago, roscoeword said:

I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

Problem with Macc is he drafted in the first round not to lose (rather than to win).  Every single one of his high first rounders were exactly the same: consensus “best players in the draft” who fell. Then he flubbed every other round. Any of us could’ve equaled that feat. He was not a professional GM.

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On 11/28/2019 at 1:07 AM, BurnleyJet said:

Yes it is, why, because he was over drafted, and isn’t worth a 3rd or the 14 mill salary. We did well to cut our loss.

you people are looking the  the face value of it and not the underlying problem....

whatever, i won't even bother with that logic

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On 11/29/2019 at 1:06 AM, roscoeword said:

I can't blame Mac for drafting Leo. EVERYBODY said he was the best player in the draft, and it was unbelievable that he dropped to 6. Nobody on the board complained. We thought we had a catch. So the "experts" should be blamed. It's rare that a GM will think out of the box, one exception was when that GM took that defensive lineman (forgot his name) ahead of Reggie Bush that year, and he was right.

This might be the most erroneous post I’ve seen in some time. 

most people thought he was the safest player in the draft, that necessarily the best. If he was the best he would’ve went number one. Instead we were the suckers who couldnt let him pass at six. Yes there were people who didn’t like the pick, being that we already had Wilkerson, Richardson, Coples, snacks and others. It was a completely redundant pick then it is still is now. Todd Gurley or Vic Beasley would’ve been a much more intelligent move given our team. Had we drafted Todd Gurley the Fitzmagic show would’ve went into the playoffs, guaranteed

 it was literally the same narrative with Q Williams. They both have gaps in their tape, though I will say Leonards was more apparent. He cannot get after the quarterback in college unless it was third and long

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20 hours ago, jgb said:

Problem with Macc is he drafted in the first round not to lose (rather than to win).  Every single one of his high first rounders were exactly the same: consensus “best players in the draft” who fell. Then he flubbed every other round. Any of us could’ve equaled that feat. He was not a professional GM.

Mac was just horrible.  

 

Jets had back to back the league’s most putrid GMs.  A blind 5 year old could have drafted better than those 2

 

That’s why we need to trade Adams and Q and get three first rd picks in the draft to fix this dumpster fire roster

 

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20 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Mac was just horrible.  

 

Jets had back to back the league’s most putrid GMs.  A blind 5 year old could have drafted better than those 2

 

That’s why we need to trade Adams and Q and get three first rd picks in the draft to fix this dumpster fire roster

 

I had to check so see when this was posted as earlier in the year I would have maybe agreed with you

Dumpster fire?   You really think its that bad?   
The defense has been playing pretty well all year despite some major injuries   We could still use an edge rusher and CB but otherwise look pretty solid there

On offense we need to improve our line and I have no doubt that draft and FA will focus on that   We need a number one WR which im sure will be addressed one way or another

Thats 5-6 players and we have 4 picks in first 3 rds and a lot of cap space to sign players 

Do you see other needs that i havent mentioned?   

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