What to make of Tannehill?

[Warfish]

23 minutes ago, jgb said:

He gets injured that is true. But he is better than people give him credit for.

He played every single game for four full seasons.  

He was then hurt repeatedly throughout the entirely of Gase's tenure.

Since then, he's been healthy.

[nyjunc]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

Disagreement is fine  

Thank you.  I appreciate that.  I think disagreement is great for message boards.  What fun would it be if we all agreed with each other?

We'll see what happens long term. 

[Warfish]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

Disagreement is fine  

Remember, Jets Fans hate "putting up numbers".  Guys like Cousins, they're the worst to your average Jets Fan.  They just produce, and as we all know, those 4,500 yard, 30+ TD, 65% completion rate and low INT rate are "just numbers".  

We like gutsy QB's who "look like" Peyton Manning, or look better than Aaron Rodgers, with the moxie of Joe Namath as well, of course, and the steel jaw good looks of Unitas!  Numbers?  Blah, who cares, we want this kind of elite accuracy (just not in the metrics), elite talent (just not in yardage production) and elite command (just not in TD to INT rates). 

One wonders if Jets Fans feel this way because frankly average starting QB's like Tannehill have produced seasons that would be all-time #1 ever if they were Jets.   One can only wonder if we ever broke through that wall, and had a Jets QB put up an average, modern, NFL season of production......i.e. the single greatest season in Jets history........would Jets Fans finally start respecting "putting up numbers" when evaluating QB's.

Lets hope the guy who "looks like Rodgers" is finally the guy who can also, one day, produce like him too.

[nyjunc]

36 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Remember, Jets Fans hate "putting up numbers".  Guys like Cousins, they're the worst to your average Jets Fan.  They just produce, and as we all know, those 4,500 yard, 30+ TD, 65% completion rate and low INT rate are "just numbers".  

We like gutsy QB's who "look like" Peyton Manning, or look better than Aaron Rodgers, with the moxie of Joe Namath as well, of course, and the steel jaw good looks of Unitas!  Numbers?  Blah, who cares, we want this kind of elite accuracy (just not in the metrics), elite talent (just not in yardage production) and elite command (just not in TD to INT rates). 

One wonders if Jets Fans feel this way because frankly average starting QB's like Tannehill have produced seasons that would be all-time #1 ever if they were Jets.   One can only wonder if we ever broke through that wall, and had a Jets QB put up an average, modern, NFL season of production......i.e. the single greatest season in Jets history........would Jets Fans finally start respecting "putting up numbers" when evaluating QB's.

Lets hope the guy who "looks like Rodgers" is finally the guy who can also, one day, produce like him too.

In his entire career Ryan Tannehill has had a record above .500 just one time (with Adam Gase), he's never even played in a playoff and this is his 8th season.

Cousins (who I think it's good by the way) has never won a playoff game, only played in one and took over a young vikings team that many thought was a SB contender last year and missed the playoffs.

Numbers without context are meaningless.  I don't career if Ryan Tannehill puts up garbage time numbers, I care if he's making plays to help his team win.  Even if he loses if he's doing all he can that's good but he has not done that throughout his long career.

Ryan has never been able to do the things Darnold is doing.  There's not a GM alive who would look at those two take more than half a second to tell you they want Sam.

Meaningless numbers impress those that don't watch these guys play.

[ChuckkieB]

Tannehill might just be the new Alex Smith.  Jury is still out, but he's looked good the last few weeks. 

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

Tannehill might just be the new Alex Smith.  Jury is still out, but he's looked good the last few weeks. 

He's not Alex Smith yet. Alex doesn't put up eye popping numbers but he makes plays to help his teams win.  His goal should be to be an Alex Smith type.  He has all that ability, time will tell if he's turned a corner.  I'm not buying it.

[Warfish]

21 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

In his entire career Ryan Tannehill has had a record above .500 just one time (with Adam Gase), he's never even played in a playoff and this is his 8th season.

So when Darnold fails to win, it's all because of his team.

When other QB's fail to win, it's all because of them.  Even if they're producing vastly in excess of what Darnold produces?

Like I said who needs "just numbers" guys when we can have the dreamy "looks elite, remind me of Rodgers, except in the numbers" type guys. 

Quote

Cousins (who I think it's good by the way) has never won a playoff game, only played in one and took over a young vikings team that many thought was a SB contender last year and missed the playoffs.

He's still 100x time the QB Sam Darnold is today.  Sam Darnold, who also hasn't made a playoff game, hasn't led a winning season, hasn't beaten many winning teams, and hasn't played 16 games in a season as yet.  

Numbers have meaning, Jets Fans just like to pretend they don't when it's convenient.  I continue to reject the Jets Fan myth of the "Hell" of having one of the most productive QB's of this, and every recent, year.

Quote

Numbers without context are meaningless.  I don't career if Ryan Tannehill puts up garbage time numbers, I care if he's making plays to help his team win.  Even if he loses if he's doing all he can that's good but he has not done that throughout his long career.

This isn't MLB.  Even MLB gets it wrong.  Wins and Losses is a team stat. 

Passing yards, TD's, INT's, completion percentage, etc, etc, etc. are individual QB performance metrics.

Quote

Ryan has never been able to do the things Darnold is doing.  There's not a GM alive who would look at those two take more than half a second to tell you they want Sam.

Sam is very clearly the superior talent potential.  Every GM picking him would be right, he has higher upside, is much younger, and should (stress should) be elite some day.

Ryan, so far, is the clearly superior performer and producer of QB production.

Spin it however you need to to feel better about it.  Darnold hasn't sniffed a "meaningless numbers" year like Tannehill's yet.  Which is why so much of this forum is priasing him with "look like this great QB" and not "wow, he threw for 450 yards and 3 TD's with no INT's" compliments.

Quote

Meaningless numbers impress those that don't watch these guys play.

And Jets Fans make up fantasies where producing 4,500 yard, 30+ TD, 70% completion, 10 INT seasons are just "meaingless numbers" with no impact on their team......until the day dreamy Sam Darnold does it, then they'll be the most important numbers ever.

Save it mate, Jets Fans live in a fantasy world of their own making when it comes to what they value.  Since Jets QB's suck horribly at actually producing passing stats, "numbers are meaningless" and "numbers don't matter".

Hopefully, next year Sam Darnold will live up to all that "looks like Rodgers" potential, and give us a productive season from the QB position, for all 16 games.  He'll break every single Jets single-season QB metric record.  

Then we'll see if everyone is singing the same tune about "meaningless numbers".

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So when Darnold fails to win, it's all because of his team.

When other QB's fail to win, it's all because of them.  Even if they're producing vastly in excess of what Darnold produces?

Like I said who needs "just numbers" guys when we can have the dreamy "looks elite, remind me of Rodgers, except in the numbers" type guys. 

He's still 100x time the QB Sam Darnold is today.  Sam Darnold, who also hasn't made a playoff game, hasn't led a winning season, hasn't beaten many winning teams, and hasn't played 16 games in a season as yet.  

Numbers have meaning, Jets Fans just like to pretend they don't when it's convenient.  I continue to reject the Jets Fan myth of the "Hell" of having one of the most productive QB's of this, and every recent, year.

This isn't MLB.  Even MLB gets it wrong.  Wins and Losses is a team stat. 

Passing yards, TD's, INT's, completion percentage, etc, etc, etc. are individual QB performance metrics.

Sam is very clearly the superior talent potential.  Every GM picking him would be right, he has higher upside, is much younger, and should (stress should) be elite some day.

Ryan, so far, is the clearly superior performer and producer of QB production.

Spin it however you need to to feel better about it.  Darnold hasn't sniffed a "meaningless numbers" year like Tannehill's yet.  Which is why so much of this forum is priasing him with "look like this great QB" and not "wow, he threw for 450 yards and 3 TD's with no INT's" compliments.

And Jets Fans make up fantasies where producing 4,500 yard, 30+ TD, 70% completion, 10 INT seasons are just "meaingless numbers" with no impact on their team......until the day dreamy Sam Darnold does it, then they'll be the most important numbers ever.

Save it mate, Jets Fans live in a fantasy world of their own making when it comes to what they value.  Since Jets QB's suck horribly at actually producing passing stats, "numbers are meaningless" and "numbers don't matter".

Hopefully, next year Sam Darnold will live up to all that "looks like Rodgers" potential, and give us a productive season from the QB position, for all 16 games.  He'll break every single Jets single-season QB metric record.  

Then we'll see if everyone is singing the same tune about "meaningless numbers".

Tannehill has played with playoff caliber teams basically his entire career.  Has Sam yet?

This isn't really about Sam anyway, it's about tannehill who havey been a good QB in this league and he's been playing since 2012.

Cousins is not much better than Sam, he has a much better team. A team that was a game from the SB before he got there then missed the playoffs with him.

Numbers with context have meaning.  Numbers without context never tell the whole story.

No player has more influence on wins and losses than the QB.  Notice SF last year vs this year? Notice the Jets early this year to now? Obviously others have to play better but it starts with the QB.

With guys like tannehill there's no difference btw them and their backups.

Ryan is without a doubt not the superior performer.  It's clear you haven't watched Ryan play at all this year and probably not much throughout his career.  What Sam is doing right now is special without great talent or a good OL around him.  He's spreading the ball around amazingly.

Sam hasn't played a full year yet and he can have his meaningless numbers, at no point in Ryan tannehill's career has he ever looked as good as Sam has recently.

 

Ryan has never come close to 4500 yds and 4000 yds in this era is not a big deal.

 

I don't care about numbers, I care about Sam helping us win.  Eventually he will do that, he's doing it now without great talent around him.  

I don't need him to look like anyone other than himself.  We finally have a QB that has elite potential, a guy that makes those around him better.  That's very rare.  Enjoy it rather than bash him up pump up Ryan Tannehill.

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I don't care about numbers, I care about Sam helping us win.

Hate to break it you mate, but numbers, i.e. producing yards, TD's making completions while not throwing INT's IS what QB's do to help us win.

But I don't fault you for this.  I fault the Jets for being one of the worst teams at the QB position my entire life.  Given the past 30 years or so, it's no wonder Jets Fans have lost the idea that QB's producing -> Helping Win.  After all, we've not really had any QB's producing, at least not to average league standards, that entire time.  And we got lucky and won some anyway with a few elite O-line and RB's and Defenses.

[Drums]

@Warfish Okay so you have a choice of Cousins and Darnold in the same draft. Who are you taking?

[jgb]

How do those who defend Sam saying the team stinks reconcile that with the playoff expectations here in August?

[Warfish]

21 minutes ago, Drums said:

@Warfish Okay so you have a choice of Cousins and Darnold in the same draft. Who are you taking?

I wanted Cousins, badly, when he came out in 2012 as a fourth round pick.  And we could easily have had him.  And I wanted to sign him when he was a free agent, despite his inflated (but affordable for us) cost. 

He is a lock for 4,000+ yards, 30 TD's, half that or less INT's, and a 65%+ completion rate (likely better) every year.  And with Cousins, and not Darnold, we get back our 2018 #1 and three #2 picks to help build this low-talent team.  And we don;t lose anything, talent wise.  We had and have plenty of cap space.  

If you can't build a winner with that, you're not building a winner. 

Like most questions, it's never so simple as "pick X or Y".  Those changes come with a ton of repercussions.  

But sadly, IMO, none of that happened.  We picked Geno Smith in 2013 in the 2nd, Bryce Petty in 2015 in the 4th and Christian Hackenberg in 2016 in the 2nd.  And of course Sam Darnold in 2018, for four top picks, in 2018.

We draft Cousins in 2012, we get all those picks back.  That's a #1, 5 #2's and a #4.

So would I take Cousins in 2012 for a fourth + 1 2018 #1 + five #2's + a 4th OR Sam Darnold, Geno Smith, Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg?

Do you really have to ask what I'd prefer? 

 

 

[Ken Schroy]

Lets see how it plays out. Just as Gase is doing well here now, need to see more from Tannehill too. Just not sold on him as a FQB.

[UntouchableCrew]

Tannehill is the same guy he's always been. Good athlete, pretty accurate and efficient but very conservative. The kind of guy who makes the easy completion for 7 yards on third and 11. Pads his stats against bad teams and in garbage time, comes up small against the best. He's not terrible, he's a great backup and low end starter. But he's not "the guy" and never will be.

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

Tannehill has always been criminally underrated 

Not really

 

 

Derrick Henry is the reason the titans are winning he has like 340 yards and 4 tds his last 2 games

 

All Tannehill has to do is manage the offense effectively which the bust Marcus Mariota couldn’t do

 

[Philc1]

29 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Tannehill is the same guy he's always been. Good athlete, pretty accurate and efficient but very conservative. The kind of guy who makes the easy completion for 7 yards on third and 11. Pads his stats against bad teams and in garbage time, comes up small against the best. He's not terrible, he's a great backup and low end starter. But he's not "the guy" and never will be.

Derrick Henry is the guy in Tennessee right now

[Rob123]

4 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Tannehill is playing better without the pressure of a franchise who hasnt had a qb since marino.  No expectations is a nice way to play.

Once he gets a contract as a starting qb, he will tighten up and not play as well.

Its fitzpatrick syndrome.

Do you think he will get a job as a starter?  When I saw this thread I thought  it was about the Jets needing an experienced backup QB next year and Tannehill being option 1 because of his history with Gase.

Right now I don't see how anyone views him as anything beyond a placeholder backup QB.

 

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, Warfish said:

Hate to break it you mate, but numbers, i.e. producing yards, TD's making completions while not throwing INT's IS what QB's do to help us win.

But I don't fault you for this.  I fault the Jets for being one of the worst teams at the QB position my entire life.  Given the past 30 years or so, it's no wonder Jets Fans have lost the idea that QB's producing -> Helping Win.  After all, we've not really had any QB's producing, at least not to average league standards, that entire time.  And we got lucky and won some anyway with a few elite O-line and RB's and Defenses.

You need to be able to watch these players, there's a reason teams have never won with Tannehill.  Numbers never tell the whole story especially in this era where numbers are so inflated.

Ryan Tannehill is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick.  He'll tease you but will always crash back down to earth.

 

In the past 30 years we've had better QBs than Ryan- Vinny, Chad, Sanchez, currently with Sam and even Fitz '15

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, jgb said:

How do those who defend Sam saying the team stinks reconcile that with the playoff expectations here in August?

Have you not noticed the team he's played with (which also includes him playing with mono week 1 then missing 3 games) looks very different than the team we expected to see coming into this year?

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

You need to be able to watch these players, there's a reason teams have never won with Tannehill.  Numbers never tell the whole story especially in this era where numbers are so inflated.

Ryan Tannehill is basically Ryan Fitzpatrick.  He'll tease you but will always crash back down to earth.

 

In the past 30 years we've had better QBs than Ryan- Vinny, Chad, Sanchez, currently with Sam and even Fitz '15

It's funny to me that those who disagree think I don't watch the players in question.  I do.  I'm well aware of their limitations, and no one here is calling Ryan Tannehill a franchise QB, great, elite, Super Bowl-worthy, or anything close to it.  He is distinctly average.  But 2019-level average production is more than almost any Jets QB in history has provided, as the numbers prove out.

It's funny that those who watch Sam Darnold think they're seeing Aaron Rodgers, right now, today.  For Sam, production doesn't matter, only the feelings of fans and the dreams of what they think they see.  The fact Sam's production is materially below average to-date....meaningless, or excused by excuses never given to other QB's, because he is dreamy, and will be Aaron Rodgers reborn (or maybe Peyton Manning, or Brett Favre, since his "floor" is borderline HOF'er Phillip Rivers, right?) if we just say it often enough.....

It's funny that football fans have yet to understand concepts of metrics of performance.  It's like talking to a baseball fan from 100 years ago.  It's almost like some of you think that throwing 13 TD's is better than throwing 30 TD's, because something something Sam Darnold is dreamy.  That throwing for 4,500 yards is somehow in some way worse than throwing for 3,000 yards.  That 15 INT's is better than 10 INT's, or 3 INT's, because.....hell, I have no idea.  That wins come from dreamy doe eyed football faeries, not, I don't know, producing yards and TD's and limiting INT's.

I'm just waiting to hear you tell me 4-7 is really better than 8-3, because Darnold > Cousins.

[jgb]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Have you not noticed the team he's played with (which also includes him playing with mono week 1 then missing 3 games) looks very different than the team we expected to see coming into this year?

Guess I’m in the minority unfortunately I expected basically this time of year. The only disappointment for me is Sam didn’t get 16 games experience. He seems to be hitting a groove now, though, which is encouraging.

[Big_Slick]

19 hours ago, RonaldJet said:

Stud Franchise QB held back by Gase? Or just a guy on a hot streak?

Tannehill is just on a hot streak. He is inconsistent and lacks accuracy, missing wide open WR's time after time. When he isn't injured half the season.

[ScarletKnight89]

He's been in the league since 2012. He wasn't held back by Gase. I always thought he could play and always liked him. He's not a star, but he's a quality QB.

Gase went 8-5 with him in 2016 before he got hurt and missed all of 2017 and then he went 5-6 with him last year. 

 

[ZachEY]

18 hours ago, jgb said:

Tannehill has always been criminally underrated 

No Jets #RealFan would ever utter a positive word about a former Dolphin.  Clearly a #FakeFan.

 

 

(I hope you’re enjoying this as much as I am)

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's funny to me that those who disagree think I don't watch the players in question.  I do.  I'm well aware of their limitations, and no one here is calling Ryan Tannehill a franchise QB, great, elite, Super Bowl-worthy, or anything close to it.  He is distinctly average.  But 2019-level average production is more than almost any Jets QB in history has provided, as the numbers prove out.

It's funny that those who watch Sam Darnold think they're seeing Aaron Rodgers, right now, today.  For Sam, production doesn't matter, only the feelings of fans and the dreams of what they think they see.  The fact Sam's production is materially below average to-date....meaningless, or excused by excuses never given to other QB's, because he is dreamy, and will be Aaron Rodgers reborn (or maybe Peyton Manning, or Brett Favre, since his "floor" is borderline HOF'er Phillip Rivers, right?) if we just say it often enough.....

It's funny that football fans have yet to understand concepts of metrics of performance.  It's like talking to a baseball fan from 100 years ago.  It's almost like some of you think that throwing 13 TD's is better than throwing 30 TD's, because something something Sam Darnold is dreamy.  That throwing for 4,500 yards is somehow in some way worse than throwing for 3,000 yards.  That 15 INT's is better than 10 INT's, or 3 INT's, because.....hell, I have no idea.  That wins come from dreamy doe eyed football faeries, not, I don't know, producing yards and TD's and limiting INT's.

I'm just waiting to hear you tell me 4-7 is really better than 8-3, because Darnold > Cousins.

Agree except I believe Tannehill is above average. To your point, the yardsticks have really moved. An average full season today would be among the best Jets QB season ever. Incredibly, we had the first 4,000 year ever from a QB... and not a single one since.

[Big_Slick]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's funny to me that those who disagree think I don't watch the players in question.  I do.  I'm well aware of their limitations, and no one here is calling Ryan Tannehill a franchise QB, great, elite, Super Bowl-worthy, or anything close to it.  He is distinctly average.

I've watched every game Tannehill played for the Phins and "distinctly average" is his ceiling and much more likely is a below average performance from him.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's funny to me that those who disagree think I don't watch the players in question.  I do.  I'm well aware of their limitations, and no one here is calling Ryan Tannehill a franchise QB, great, elite, Super Bowl-worthy, or anything close to it.  He is distinctly average.  But 2019-level average production is more than almost any Jets QB in history has provided, as the numbers prove out.

It's funny that those who watch Sam Darnold think they're seeing Aaron Rodgers, right now, today.  For Sam, production doesn't matter, only the feelings of fans and the dreams of what they think they see.  The fact Sam's production is materially below average to-date....meaningless, or excused by excuses never given to other QB's, because he is dreamy, and will be Aaron Rodgers reborn (or maybe Peyton Manning, or Brett Favre, since his "floor" is borderline HOF'er Phillip Rivers, right?) if we just say it often enough.....

It's funny that football fans have yet to understand concepts of metrics of performance.  It's like talking to a baseball fan from 100 years ago.  It's almost like some of you think that throwing 13 TD's is better than throwing 30 TD's, because something something Sam Darnold is dreamy.  That throwing for 4,500 yards is somehow in some way worse than throwing for 3,000 yards.  That 15 INT's is better than 10 INT's, or 3 INT's, because.....hell, I have no idea.  That wins come from dreamy doe eyed football faeries, not, I don't know, producing yards and TD's and limiting INT's.

I'm just waiting to hear you tell me 4-7 is really better than 8-3, because Darnold > Cousins.

So we compare 2019 level average production yo QBs of other eras?  That makes sense.

Sam is producing with a lot less takes around him.  He's in year 2, in his 2nd system (by the way, tannehill had his college coach as a rookie so he didn't have that transition), had mono and his team has been no devastated by injuries.  I just don't understand some jet fans.

 

Give Sam that Minnesota talent playing in a dome and let's see what happens.   You should go check out Kirk's history in games affected by weather.  Let me know what you find.

 

Yards, TDs, etc... help teams win except when they are in garbage time which many QBs put up those numbers.  

 

If it can't see the difference btw Sam's potential vs QBs like tannehill and cousins I can't help you.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

He's been in the league since 2012. He wasn't held back by Gase. I always thought he could play and always liked him. He's not a star, but he's a quality QB.

Gase went 8-5 with him in 2016 before he got hurt and missed all of 2017 and then he went 5-6 with him last year. 

 

He had his best season under Gase

[nyjunc]

10 minutes ago, jgb said:

Guess I’m in the minority unfortunately I expected basically this time of year. The only disappointment for me is Sam didn’t get 16 games experience. He seems to be hitting a groove now, though, which is encouraging.

It's ok to be in the minority, I frequently am with my opinions.  Maybe he's finally getting it?  It's happened plenty of times before but I need to see it consistently before I believe it.  The team is playing well with him and that is most important but eventually Henry not going to have a monster game, can they still win?

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

fresh start, good defense, good running game - sounds familiar

[Greenbloodblitz]

Why the hell are we talking about Ryan Tannehill?

[Losmeister]

7 minutes ago, Greenbloodblitz said:

Why the hell are we talking about Ryan Tannehill?

i lobbied for separate NFL and JETS forums, but...

[Warfish]

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

So we compare 2019 level average production yo QBs of other eras?  That makes sense.

Nope, I'm comparing 2019 Sam vs. 2019 NFL.  

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Sam is producing with a lot less takes around him.  He's in year 2, in his 2nd system (by the way, tannehill had his college coach as a rookie so he didn't have that transition), had mono and his team has been no devastated by injuries.  I just don't understand some jet fans.

There is no trophy for best excuses.

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Give Sam that Minnesota talent playing in a dome and let's see what happens.

And what if the Jets never give Sam an all-pro team from top to bottom?  Will we be reading your excuses for a decade to come?

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Yards, TDs, etc... help teams win except when they are in garbage time which many QBs put up those numbers.

Like games played after you're already out of contention and sitting at 1-7?

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

  If it can't see the difference btw Sam's potential vs QBs like tannehill and cousins I can't help you.

Of course I see the difference between Darnold's as-yet unfulfilled potential and a QB like Tannehill, a distinctly average QB, as I said.  I don't want Tannehill here and never have, I don't like ex-Dolphins.  He is best as an example as to why another ex-Dolphin isn't the genius some Jets homers like to try and make out.

I reject out of hand the idea that Darnold is a materially better prospect than Cousins is an actual producing QB.  Cousins is a top QB being paid like a top QB for a reason.  He is 8-3 this year, with 21 TD's vs. 3 INT's.  

You make sure you let me know when Sam Darnold is able to throw 21 TD's vs. only 3 INT's.  Because I'd sh*t myself in happiness if Sam Darnold EVER puts up consistent production equal to the actual production Kirk Cousins has put up so far in his career.  That would be good, I would have no words for it.  And be assured, if Sam ever does consistently put up 4,000+ yard, 30 TD/10 INT type seasons, it WILL help us win more games.  

[Vudu]

Good for him.


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[Vudu]

Mariotta is a huge bust


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