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Lamar Jackson: MERGED

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1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This was happening to Lamar coming out of high school. Only one school recruited him to be a QB, and even there he was asked to try running routes. Way before he became a talking head darling. 

I imagine back then whomever was quoted in the OP wasnt so upset about it. I 100% agree race plays a role but its not the only factor is my point. You dont really hear this stuff about Mahommes, Watson or Dak. Atleast I havent, and if so, not nearly at the volume you do with Lamar.

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I get the comparisons to the treatment of Josh Allen, but Josh Allen has a cannon.  It's not like he is an RB playing QB.  Jackson also has an arm, but his motion is/was nowhere near as pretty.

Josh Allen gets the same critiscm but is generally regarded as a bad QB who will always be bad. And he is just that.

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1 minute ago, CTM said:

I imagine back then whomever was quoted in the OP wasnt so upset about it. I 100% agree race plays a role but its not the only factor is my point. You dont really hear this stuff about Mahommes, Watson or Dak. Atleast I havent, and if so, not nearly at the volume you do with Lamar.

I've seen at least three of the four compared to JaMarcus Russell. Here. Guess what the fourth one's mom looks like.

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9 minutes ago, CTM said:

I imagine back then whomever was quoted in the OP wasnt so upset about it. I 100% agree race plays a role but its not the only factor is my point. You dont really hear this stuff about Mahommes, Watson or Dak. Atleast I havent, and if so, not nearly at the volume you do with Lamar.

Fair, but I also think it’s because they are more proven picket passers than LJ. 

I’d imagine that if Josh Allen were black, he’d have been recruited to play H-back in college and wouldn’t have gotten a shot in the NFL.

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17 minutes ago, CTM said:

Josh Allen gets the same critiscm but is generally regarded as a bad QB who will always be bad. And he is just that.

Maybe.  I think Josh Allen is the kind of QB a defensive team wants.  He has limited his turnovers and he is always a danger for the huge play.  Being able to run is icing on the cake for 3rd down plays.  I wish Rex could have had him instead of Sanchez.  He looked like sh*t against the Eagles and Pats, but otherwise they have to be pretty happy with him. 

14 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I've seen at least three of the four compared to JaMarcus Russell. Here. Guess what the fourth one's mom looks like.

How is JaMarcus as a comp for Allen?  I mean, like the others, Allen seems like a good kid that will put in the work, so JaMarcus without the Grape Drank?  I don't see why you'd compare any of them.  Russell wasn't that mobile was he?  Just huge.  More Winston, Flacco, Ben on a bad day to me, but I don't remember him that well. 

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16 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Fair, but I also think it’s because they are more proven picket passers than LJ. 

I mean that's kind of my point. It's legitimate to wonder whether or not Lamar @ 6'2 and 215 will hold up to getting hit as often as he does. I sure hope he does, at long as he doesn't kick us out of th playoffs one of these years :)

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't see why you'd compare any of them.

Well, having correctly eliminated mobility as the basis for such a comparison, what would your next hypothesis be?

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29 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I've seen at least three of the four compared to JaMarcus Russell. Here. Guess what the fourth one's mom looks like.

Ok, so some people are stupid and use skin color to define familial resemblence at QB because it's a historic outlier. People do it with white receivers too. Russel has nothing to do with any of these guys near as I can tell. Not exactly a Jamarcus expert but I seem to remember him being more like Ryan Leaf than Deshaun Watson

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3 minutes ago, CTM said:

I mean that's kind of my point. It's legitimate to wonder whether or not Lamar @ 6'2 and 215 will hold up to getting hit as often as he does. I sure hope he does, at long as he doesn't kick us out of th playoffs one of these years :)

Two years ago after Peyton was gone and Luck always injured and we were left with an aging Brady, Brees, Ben and Rodgers, the NFL looked dead to me. However, between LJ, Deshaun, Mahomes and Russell as well as potentially Sam, Baker & Kyler, the league is set up to get ratings and be fun for a long time going forward. If Minshew can pick it up, I'd throw him in there as well purely from an excitement standpoint. Tua and Lawrence should be fun for two more teams as well. As always, health will be the primary concern from corporate's perspective.  

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Just now, greenwichjetfan said:

Two years ago after Peyton was gone and Luck always injured and we were left with an aging Brady, Brees, Ben and Rodgers, the NFL looked dead to me. However, between LJ, Deshaun, Mahomes and Russell as well as potentially Sam, Baker & Kyler, the league is set up to get ratings and be fun for a long time going forward. If Minshew can pick it up, I'd throw him in there as well purely from an excitement standpoint. Tua and Lawrence should be fun for two more teams as well. As always, health will be the primary concern from corporate's perspective.  

100% The amount of talented young QB's is exciting. I also have always liked attacking offense so I'm all for the rule changes to make it easier as well.

 

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2 hours ago, Eyes Of Adam said:

When a QB runs the ball, they are one hit away from a big injury,

when any football player catches the ball and runs, any punt returner, any WR, any RB..

they are one hit away from big injury...  every time Brady or any other QB drops back
they can be Von Oelhoffen'ed

image.png.4cc24600fd7875f5d92171d1794fa4e8.png

Dalvin Cook is 5'9" 209....    

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Well, having correctly eliminated mobility as the basis for such a comparison, what would your next hypothesis be?

it's so ******* obvious..   but you know, JetNation

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10 minutes ago, CTM said:

Ok, so some people are stupid and use skin color to define familial resemblence at QB because it's a historic outlier. People do it with white receivers too. Russel has nothing to do with any of these guys near as I can tell. Not exactly a Jamarcus expert but I seem to remember him being more like Ryan Leaf than Deshaun Watson

First the argument was, that style doesn't win. Now not only is Jackson winning, quarterbacks run more as a whole. Now the thing is it wins but he won't last. You know, because if you call a guy who's built like a running back a quarterback it has an effect on his ability to take hits. After this it will be something else.

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41 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think Josh Allen is the kind of QB a defensive team wants.  He has limited his turnovers and he is always a danger for the huge play.  Being able to run is icing on the cake for 3rd down plays.  I wish Rex could have had him instead of Sanchez.  He looked like sh*t against the Eagles and Pats, but otherwise they have to be pretty happy with him. 

I’m sure they are now, but I doubt they will be in three years. It’s interesting that you made the Rex/Sanchez comp, because there are some major 2010 Jets vibes emanating from Orchard Park this year.

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7 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

because if you call a guy who's built like a running back a quarterback it has an effect on his ability to take hits. 

Lamar has 2 inches and -10 lbs on most RB's, no? He doesn't look like a RB to me, built more like a WR than a RB imo. Even still, RB's don't last very long to begin with and don't have to worry as much about a busted shoulder/elbow ruining thier career.

In any event, I'm out as this is getting stupid. I don't know that he'll get hurt and I hope he stays healthy as he's fun to watch but I do think it's reasonable to assume that in aggregate the more you run the ball and get tackled by 225lb+ players, the more likely it is you'll get hurt and/or weardown

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4 minutes ago, CTM said:

 the more you run the ball and get tackled by 225lb+ players, the more likely it is you'll get hurt and/or weardown

as it is with any player... who gets tackled with the ball...

so THATS what happened in the Falcons choke in the SB? They stopped going to Julio Jones cos they were limiting the number of hits he'd take

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Randall Cunningham held up pretty well and he had a few 100 carry seasons. 

I have kind of a strange take on the racial aspect because I am 100% crusty old white guy, but I grew up rooting for the Lawrence McCutcheon, Harold Jackson Rams just because I thought James Harris looked "cool." 

Through grade school I consistently bemoaned the fact that good college QBs didn't seem to get a chance because of their race.  There was plenty of truth to that, but also a total lack of understanding of scouting and the NFL QB position. 

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On 11/25/2019 at 10:36 PM, Rob123 said:

Friend- former Coach Mangini said it best "you have many great young QBs who can run, but not many old ones."  His style takes its toll on the body and is prone to injury.  I am happy with Darnold.

I truly think Jackson is one of those guys in the right system with the right coaches and would not perform anywhere near as well outside of Baltimore.  I don't think the Browns regret taking Mayfield over him.  I really think this is the case of the Ravens getting the most out of a player's skill set.

This can be said about 90% of QBs not just LJ...I mean people in this very forum we're screaming to fire Gase because they felt the system wasn't helping Darnold and he wasn't performing as well as expected.

It is just another excuse. LJ is a baller. If you can't see that, there are other issues at play.  

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Overall the takeaway is that the draft experts are just guessing like the rest of us. 
 

the science of the draft is easy, combine measurables it’s just math 

the art of the draft is determining which kid will sign a big guaranteed contract and still have the capacity to improve and the hunger to improve. 
 

lastly going after the top 5 is the best thing for a QB.   
 

the teams drafting top 5 usually have crap owners and crap teams. 
 

put Darnold on the chiefs or ravens or Jackson or Mahomie on the Jets and the conversation changes   Sure the natural talent shines through but Gase might still be waiting for them to speak up lol

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On 11/27/2019 at 2:18 PM, Eyes Of Adam said:

Personally, I think people don't articulate their pros and cons properly when it comes to athletic QB's, and I personally think it has less to do with race, but that may be wishful thinking.

 A Harvard study of every draft eligible QB for the last 25 years shows implicit bias is baked in where white QBs are spoken of in terms of intangibles....leadership, intellect etc and rarely about their athleticism...and black QBs are spoken of almost exclusively in terms of their athleticism and deemed lacking in those intangible qualities white QBs...even god awful ones...are assumed to have. I was listening to Nick Wright's show tuesday night on the way home from work and he was discussing this very thing with Mina Kimes from ESPN.

They said it is so baked in that you can tell whether the scouting report is on a black QB or a white one just by the things complimented and criticized without ever seeing the school or the QB's name...for instance while most college teams play some form of a spread offense you hear constantly as a criticism or concern of black QBs whether they can get the verbiage of calling a play in a huddle right  or take snaps under center and almost never hear the same criticisms or concerns regarding white QBs coming out of the same system. 

That's the thing that gets Paxton Lynch and Christian Hackenberg selected long before Jacoby Brissett or Dak Prescott...

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13 minutes ago, Awesumtenor said:

 A Harvard study of every draft eligible QB for the last 25 years shows implicit bias is baked in where white QBs are spoken of in terms of intangibles....leadership, intellect etc and rarely about their athleticism...and black QBs are spoken of almost exclusively in terms of their athleticism and deemed lacking in those intangible qualities white QBs...even god awful ones...are assumed to have. I was listening to Nick Wright's show tuesday night on the way home from work and he was discussing this very thing with Mina Kimes from ESPN.

They said it is so baked in that you can tell whether the scouting report is on a black QB or a white one just by the things complimented and criticized without ever seeing the school or the QB's name...for instance while most college teams play some form of a spread offense you hear constantly as a criticism or concern of black QBs whether they can get the verbiage of calling a play in a huddle right  or take snaps under center and almost never hear the same criticisms or concerns regarding white QBs coming out of the same system. 

That's the thing that gets Paxton Lynch and Christian Hackenberg selected long before Jacoby Brissett or Dak Prescott...

This seems like its political, and Im trying to be a good poster and not engage in political discussion on the forums.....

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3 minutes ago, Eyes Of Adam said:

This seems like its political, and Im trying to be a good poster and not engage in political discussion on the forums.....

 

3 minutes ago, Eyes Of Adam said:

This seems like its political, and Im trying to be a good poster and not engage in political discussion on the forums.....

how is it political? The NFL is not a government agency...

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9 minutes ago, Eyes Of Adam said:

This seems like its political, and Im trying to be a good poster and not engage in political discussion on the forums.....

He was pointing out evidence of bias on the part of the league and the media. If you feel attacked by that it's a you problem.

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2 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

He was pointing out evidence of bias on the part of the league and the media. If you feel attacked by that it's a you problem.

Thanks; I was scratching my head for a sec there...because none of what I said even insinuated politics...

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15 minutes ago, Awesumtenor said:

 

how is it political? The NFL is not a government agency...

any conversation revolving around race is deemed to be political on this site, and is to be avoided. If I am wrong on that, someone feel free to correct me.

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5 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

He was pointing out evidence of bias on the part of the league and the media. If you feel attacked by that it's a you problem.

I feel bad for you, it must suck to go through life so angry at everyone and everything all the time. I hope you at least had a good thanksgiving and some good food with friends and family.

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He's a great QB having a great season. Problem is a running QB sooner rather than later is going to take debilitating hits. Now he's better than his backup, RGIII was. But RGIII was a damn good QB until that happened. At some point for his own sake better idea to be more of a pocket passer who takes off than what he's doing this year. 

Aside-Jets should run the table spare the Ravens game. This toughest game left on the schedule. 

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On 11/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, T0mShane said:

Can you ask Ultraviolet Thunder if he’d accept a compromise ruling where Lamar Jackson can still play “quarterback,” but any touchdown he scores only counts for 3/5ths as many points as other, more legitimate quarterbacks? Perhaps we should include Pat Mahomes in this as well, so we could sign this compromise in Missouri, for old time’s sake?

Under UVT's originalist constitutional rubric,  Mahomes, with a white mom, is a dilemma, possibly 4/5s. 

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13 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

He was pointing out evidence of bias on the part of the league and the media. If you feel attacked by that it's a you problem.

who said I felt attacked by it? I am always happy to engage in intelligent discussion and learn from other peoples perspectives. I am simply trying to follow the site rules, and I am quite sure that the owner of the site would not want back and forth on race issues or perspectives on race. If the owner wants to give the go ahead, I am happy to have some intelligent convo.

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A little off-topic, but someone on TV (I forget who) pointed out that Lamar Jackson only represents a movement at the QB position if other teams can find more players like Lamar Jackson, and those kinds of players simply don't exist right now. Maybe in ten years if Junior High football coaches stop automatically making their fastest players running backs and WR's, but nobody is going to do that, especially with declining participation rates in youth sports. 

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Just now, T0mShane said:

A little off-topic, but someone on TV (I forget who) pointed out that Lamar Jackson only represents a movement at the QB position if other teams can find more players like Lamar Jackson, and those kinds of players simply don't exist right now. Maybe in ten years if Junior High football coaches stop automatically making their fastest players running backs and WR's, but nobody is going to do that, especially with declining participation rates in youth sports. 

No doubt, there are not a lot of people with Jacksons combo of traits. The other thing that will help is if a player like Jackson has sustained success in the NFL and doesn't get hurt with his style of play. A huge part of his effectiveness right now is his running threat, if he is not as much of a threat to run the ball, his game changes quite a bit. If he can have a long term career and keep doing what he is doing, he can change the QB position for the better for future players.

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

A little off-topic, but someone on TV (I forget who) pointed out that Lamar Jackson only represents a movement at the QB position if other teams can find more players like Lamar Jackson, and those kinds of players simply don't exist right now. Maybe in ten years if Junior High football coaches stop automatically making their fastest players running backs and WR's, but nobody is going to do that, especially with declining participation rates in youth sports. 

At high school and college, coaches prefer a QB who follows instructions doesn't freelance too often. And really there are not a  lot of QBs at those levels who can be judicious about when to take off nor audible. Almost none are smart enough to be their own OC; close to zero, may not be any . And a prep QB who often changes the play is going to find himself on the bench. 

The Jets to me look like they will be fine with Darnold, no regrets. Still would love to see how their scouting determined picking Adams over Watson or Mahomes made any sense. 

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Ultraviolet Thunder is an idiot. What LJ does is 100% legal and actually VERY effective in creating it's entire niche of offense. It also hasn't been seen an awful lot? For a while there were no "Randall Cunningham" style QB's in the league. Catching an opposing defense off guard means great coaching on the part of John Harbaugh. It's going to take a while for Defensive Coordinators to get a handle on how to defend the Ravens. Then, at that point probably, the Ravens offense will fall back to Earth at least somewhat.

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14 minutes ago, Eyes Of Adam said:

who said I felt attacked by it? I am always happy to engage in intelligent discussion and learn from other peoples perspectives. I am simply trying to follow the site rules, and I am quite sure that the owner of the site would not want back and forth on race issues or perspectives on race. If the owner wants to give the go ahead, I am happy to have some intelligent convo.

Again, if you can't tell the difference between airing one's personal views on the subject of race as opposed to discussing the tendency for black quarterbacks to be undervalued in the draft, it's a you problem.

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Just now, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Again, if you can't tell the difference between airing one's personal views on the subject of race as opposed to discussing the tendency for black quarterbacks to be undervalued in the draft, it's a you problem.

Yeah, its not. Its me following the site rules. If you want to get the owner to chime in, and tell us its ok to have this discussion, I am all for it. Until then, I will continue to follow the rules, and you will continue to be a very hostile person. Good day.

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