A bunch of Giants articles about Leonard Williams buyer’s remorse suspiciously published concurrently

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

The trade seemed odd to every Giants fan I know at the time.  Seemed odd to me too.

Good on Douglas for it, looks like it's working out well for us.

He manufactured a market for Leo Williams when there didn't really seem to be one.  It was smelling like a 4th round pick coming our way as the deadline approached with everyone knowing the Jets wouldn't re-sign him and wouldn't franchise him next year after drafting Quinnen.  Douglas pulled a rabbit out of a hat and may have ended up with not one, but TWO decent Draft picks.

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

Was QW’s tape really better than Oliver’s?  I’m not a big CFB guy, but I can’t help but feel if QW plays for a team outside the top 10, everything is different.

He was "safer" and that is the way the Jets have drafted. I am sure big school vs small school made him safer.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Scott Dierking said:

If we can glean anything from how the Eagles have operated their drafts and personnel, there will be moving both up and down in the draft, there will be trades and not being afraid to make moves to make the team better in a short term. How much that is a reflection of Douglas is unclear.

One thing the Philadelphia organization realized was that with Wentz there was a window of opportunity and that they needed to size that opportunity quickly.

Eagles also placed a large emphasis on building the o-line.

Most interesting off-season in some time, because, well it's not Macc.

What’s incredible is just how much Macc neglected the offensive line.  I don’t believe you need top 10 picks there, but you do have to add players over the course of 5 years.  Hopefully, in general, Douglas has a plan to build this team.  Sucking and then drafting Mel Kiper’s BPA, isn’t a strategy.

[ZachEY]

9 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

He was "safer" and that is the way the Jets have drafted. I am sure big school vs small school made him safer.

It’s fascinating, because I wouldn’t consider a cog in the Alabama machine a “safer” pick than a guy who distinguished himself at a lesser known program with lesser support.

EDIT: I suppose it’s safer in the CYA sense, but not necessarily in the football player sense.

[slats]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

That’s what makes this interesting: Jamal is probably worth more to the Jets than he’s worth on the open market, but Douglas didn’t draft him, so he has some freedom to do whatever he wants with the player, imo. 

I agree 100%. 

I hope Jamal goes All Pro with talk about the DPoY, and the Jets' not having a need to trade him helps to create an aggressive, competitive market. 

[jetstream23]

26 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Jalen Ramsey was traded for 2 1st rounders.

To a team that likely will not make the playoffs and will end up 3rd in their own division.  Crazy.  The Rams are a team with a melting roster and very few draft picks the next couple years....right at the time they're moving into a new stadium.

 

13 minutes ago, NamathToCaster said:

Just seems like  too much of a coincidence that the moment Leo was removed from the team the pass rush dramatically improved.  Of all the bad moves the Jets have made, this one appears to favor us for a change. Happy to see something work out for the Jets.  

The Jets entire D-Line situation screams of competition and meritocracy right now.  It's great.  You've got Gregg Williams who will play the guys who contribute regardless of where they came from.  And, more importantly, you now have 3 or 4 guys who are ALL hungry and have something different to prove (Fatukasi was drafted late, Shepherd is old, QW has to prove worthy of the #3 pick, Phillips wasn't drafted at all, etc.)  The common denominator.....all young, hungry with something to prove AND a Defensive Coordinator who will give them the opportunity to prove it! ...especially now that Leo has been moved out of the way to allow these guys the chance.

[flgreen]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m not sure how the Jets defense has been able to play so well without LW getting doubled teamed all game.  

Because Q Williams is getting double teamed all game.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I’d bet a shiny nickel that Jamal Adams is not a Jet next year. 

Id bet more that he will.

 

[slats]

10 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Was QW’s tape really better than Oliver’s?  I’m not a big CFB guy, but I can’t help but feel if QW plays for a team outside the top 10, everything is different.

I'm not pretending that I watch college football. Let's just say that QW was the consensus guy, and Mac always went with the consensus. My hope is Douglas can see beyond that. 

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

13 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

It’s fascinating, because I wouldn’t consider a cog in the Alabama machine a “safer” pick than a guy who distinguished himself at a lesser known program with lesser support.

Agree,  QW was a one year player on a stacked team, Oliver was a 3 year starter For Houston with more tape and Houston is not a small school (not top five conference) - but a good program in the top 25 under Hermann 

still don't think DT was the right pick but Oliver looks better so far

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I was amused by the repeated usage of “he does things that don’t show up on the stat sheet” until I remembered that Quinnen Williams supposedly “does a lot of things that don’t show up on the stat sheet.”

Hard for some to realize what coaching staffs appreciate about players

[TNJet]

28 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Leo is still only 25 or 26 years old and is a starting calibre Dlineman.

How old is our 3rd round pick from last year? 

nothing wrong with them (Giants) making that deal.  He walks in fa and they get a comp pick back most likely.

 

Just excited we'll get better players than he was with the 3rd and 5th rounders. Great move by Douglas.

[UnknownJetFan]

2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

It will work out well if the yield from the pick(s) produce.

Regardless, the Jets apparently were not going to re-sign him, I don't believe we may have gotten a comp pick at all, so the ammunition in re-stocking the roster makes it smart.

And, the defense has not seemed to miss him.

In the end we have started reducing too many Dlineman we over added like Richardson(netted the 2nd rounder that was used as part of the Darnold trade-up), and Leo that we get a high or like low 2nd this year and a 5th or maybe 4th next year. All this while this being the best I have ever seen this line play next to the NY sack exchange. Being number 1 against the ran in essence makes every team's O that comes up against us 1 dimensional before they even step on the field. That also makes a not so great pass rush become pretty good and assists our CBs in coverage.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

Agree,  QW was a one year player on a stacked team, Oliver was a 3 year starter For Houston with more tape and Houston is not a small school  - it was a good program in the top 25 under Hermann 

To me, QW feels like another guy we’re saying, “he’s definitely not a bust, but a waste of a top 3 pick” about when we don’t resign him in a few years.  

[JTJet]

16 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Was QW’s tape really better than Oliver’s?  I’m not a big CFB guy, but I can’t help but feel if QW plays for a team outside the top 10, everything is different.

Q got placed higher solely off of being an Alabama guy. I still find it amazing anyone valued him over Oliver, in fact a ton of mocks at the beginning of last years college football season had Oliver as the number 1 pick actually. 

Oliver had been described as a man amongst boys during his college career and he looks the part, meanwhile Q has been labeled "Baby Williams" and everyone makes the lame excuse the he needs a "full nfl offseason" to come in to his own which is crap. All he did at Bama was work out and play football, then had pre draft prep, nfl offseason, and pre season, yet.. looks like an overgrown high school sophomore. 

[Creepy Lurker]

8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

To me, QW feels like another guy we’re saying, “he’s definitely not a bust, but a waste of a top 3 pick” about when we don’t resign him in a few years.  

I hated the pick so much. We even had PLENTY of recent history in the last 10 years alone where we wasted picks on DTs. It’s not like we said “let’s try something new and take the BPA”. We literally just went through that with Leo and it was a HUGE failure.

Not to mention the fact that we’ve been very good/lucky with drafting and developing late rd or UDF DTs. Maybe it’s because we play a 3-4 and you don’t need these guys to do much but take on blocks and stop the run.

This proves that wasting premium draft capital on a DT/DL in a 3-4, is INSANE. You are basically playing the lottery and only justifying it if you find a HOF player like Donald. Why set yourself up for probable failure like that? 

[flgreen]

27 minutes ago, NamathToCaster said:

Just seems like  too much of a coincidence that the moment Leo was removed from the team the pass rush dramatically improved.  Of all the bad moves the Jets have made, this one appears to favor us for a change. Happy to see something work out for the Jets.  

Or, the moment Bowles was kicked out the door, and replaced with Greg Williams The D dramatically improved.

[Alka]

40 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Leo is still only 25 or 26 years old and is a starting calibre Dlineman.

How old is our 3rd round pick from last year? 

nothing wrong with them (Giants) making that deal.  He walks in fa and they get a comp pick back most likely.

 

The only problem with your thinking is that the Giants would be picking at the top of the 3rd round, and letting Leo go with a comp pick, now would be at best the bottom of the third round,  

Not great for a 8 game rental on a team that got no chance at making the playoffs.  And the 5th round pick is no giveaway either.

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, Alka said:

The only problem with your thinking is that the Giants would be picking at the top of the 3rd round, and letting Leo go with a comp pick, now would be at best the bottom of the third round,  

Not great for a 8 game rental on a team that got no chance at making the playoffs.  And the 5th round pick is no giveaway either.

The other problem is we only get a comp pick if we don’t sign comparable free agents, which, considering the state of the team and cap space available, is unlikely.

[Bugg]

59 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Jalen Ramsey was traded for 2 1st rounders.

Doesn't mean that trade nor the Jints getting Leo makes any sense. 

[Alka]

3 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The other problem is we only get a comp pick if we don’t sign comparable free agents, which, considering the state of the team and cap space available, is unlikely.

True!  If the Jets get a comparable player of skill at another position to Williams, then it's a home run.  Jets decided correctly that they were overstocked on the defensive line, and this pick fills a hole at another position. 

[isired]

 

 

 

why would the Giants trade a high two for a guy like this during a rebuild season, and how can they justify paying him?

I love this talk - it's a low three which is close to the second so you call it a high two. Well, if it's a high two, that's really like a mid 2, which is basically a low two. And of course a low two is a high 1. So on and so forth, we used a #3 on Leo and we-re getting back a #11 overall plus a high third! Which is basically another #1!

 

 

[jvill 51]

11 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The other problem is we only get a comp pick if we don’t sign comparable free agents, which, considering the state of the team and cap space available, is unlikely.

This. The amount of Giant fans who just assume the Giants will get a third round pick back anyway, so no harm no foul, has really opened my eyes as to how many people have no idea how the comp process works. It’s highly unlikely the Giants get a comp pick back if they let Leo walk given the players whose contracts they have expiring and the amount they’re likely going to spend in free agency with a desperate Gettleman (who I think gets another year, topic of the thread notwithstanding).

[Rexorcism]

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/leonard-williams-task-prove-giants-were-right-and-jets-were-wrong/

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/inside-leonard-williams-debate-whats-his-worth-to-giants/

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/59985/keeping-leonard-williams-with-giants-not-all-about-the-money?platform=amp

 

The Post has two, Schwartz has another one, and it was a topic on SNY last night. Theme of all three is the same: why would the Giants trade a high two for a guy like this during a rebuild season, and how can they justify paying him? If you’re of a conspiratorial mind, they’re going to clean house at the end of the season—starting with Gettleman—and they’re going to use the absurd Williams trade as the hook. The Maras hate firing anyone and John Mara is super-sensitive to public criticism, so having all these stories hit the papers at the same time feels like someone is greasing the skids and lessening the PR fallout. 

 

Bottom line: big win for Joe Douglas.

Who cares about the Giants?

[David Harris]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Was QW’s tape really better than Oliver’s?  I’m not a big CFB guy, but I can’t help but feel if QW plays for a team outside the top 10, everything is different.

QW’s college tape was the best DT tape just about ever. Was dominant every game and won almost every play. Not saying I love the pick- I wouldn’t taken Josh Allen.  But QW’s college tape was amazing

[Bomberjet]

Taken from one of the articles - as probably the ones with the negative view point will surely overlook.:

“I’m mystified on the Williams trade,” Hall of Fame former Cowboys executive Gil Brandt told The Post earlier this month. “I don’t understand it [for the Jets] because I thought Williams is a pretty good young player.”

Time will tell, but I don't think Gettleman will admit to his mistake by not signing him, which may happen before the season is over,  - plus the fact that if Williams continues to play unequal to his draft status, he won't have much of a bargaining chip.

“I probably wouldn’t want to do anything more than three years given his age, so I can get another bite of the apple,” Corry said. “The client dictates what goes on, but I’d be advocating very hard to him that you are not in the position you want to do a long-term deal.”

 

[JTJet]

Compare first season 11 game production of DTs and toss in Leonard Williams.

Q Williams 21 Tack 1.5 Sack 1 PassD 3 Stuffs (7 Games)

E Oliver 28 Tack 5 Sacks  2 PassD 1 ForceF 

C Wilkins 42 Tack 1 Sack 1 PassD 2 Stuffs

D Lawrence 28 Tack 2.5 Sack 1 PassD 1 ForceF 1 BlockedK

J Simmons 17 Tack 1 Sack 1 Stuff (5 Games)

...

Leo Williams 39 Tack .5 Sack 8 Stuffs

...

Now for an actual good 1st round DT through 11 games. 

Fletcher Cox 28 Tack 4.5 Sack 4 Stuffs 1 ForceF 4 PassD (10 Games) 

...Still think we should have picked Leo or Q at 6th overall? 

 

[ZachEY]

28 minutes ago, David Harris said:

QW’s college tape was the best DT tape just about ever. Was dominant every game and won almost every play. Not saying I love the pick- I wouldn’t taken Josh Allen.  But QW’s college tape was amazing

This post makes no sense whatsoever.  If it was “the best tape just about ever” you and everyone else would be thrilled and no way would you want a streaky edge with only fair measurables over him.

[GREENBEAN]

Let’s hope you’re wrong.
Better draft pick if they keep him.

If they let him go it could bet them a late rd compensatory pick which would negate the second pick in the trade. I see that happening.

We’re getting a 5th in 2021


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[isired]

Compare first season 11 game production of DTs and toss in Leonard Williams.
Q Williams 21 Tack 1.5 Sack 1 PassD 3 Stuffs (7 Games)
E Oliver 28 Tack 5 Sacks  2 PassD 1 ForceF 
C Wilkins 42 Tack 1 Sack 1 PassD 2 Stuffs
D Lawrence 28 Tack 2.5 Sack 1 PassD 1 ForceF 1 BlockedK
J Simmons 17 Tack 1 Sack 1 Stuff (5 Games)
...
Leo Williams 39 Tack .5 Sack 8 Stuffs
...
Now for an actual good 1st round DT through 11 games. 
Fletcher Cox 28 Tack 4.5 Sack 4 Stuffs 1 ForceF 4 PassD (10 Games) 
...Still think we should have picked Leo or Q at 6th overall? 
 

If its that easy, just tell us who the 3rd round 40 tackle 5.5 sack DT is next year, and we'll pair him with Williams and dominate.

[JTJet]

Just now, isired said:

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

Compare first season 11 game production of DTs and toss in Leonard Williams.
Q Williams 21 Tack 1.5 Sack 1 PassD 3 Stuffs (7 Games)
E Oliver 28 Tack 5 Sacks  2 PassD 1 ForceF 
C Wilkins 42 Tack 1 Sack 1 PassD 2 Stuffs
D Lawrence 28 Tack 2.5 Sack 1 PassD 1 ForceF 1 BlockedK
J Simmons 17 Tack 1 Sack 1 Stuff (5 Games)
...
Leo Williams 39 Tack .5 Sack 8 Stuffs
...
Now for an actual good 1st round DT through 11 games. 
Fletcher Cox 28 Tack 4.5 Sack 4 Stuffs 1 ForceF 4 PassD (10 Games) 
...Still think we should have picked Leo or Q at 6th overall? 
 

If its that easy, just tell us who the 3rd round 40 tackle 5.5 sack DT is next year, and we'll pair him with Williams and dominate.

Why cant it be that easy?

The point has nothing to do with picking in the 3rd and everything to do with the fact that we could have gotten better production from the 6th overall pick if we just picked the right guy. 

Ed Oliver was sitting there with a better college resume than Q... and Mac did typical Mac things, basing his board off of Mel Kiper instead of using his own two eyes. 

[DarnoldSchwarzeneggar369]

I’d bet a shiny nickel that Jamal Adams is not a Jet next year. 

The Jets have rights on his contract for three more years regardless. They have the money to pay him and they will and if he demands a trade for whatever reason you better believe the Jets aren’t taking less than two first round picks


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[Philc1]

Leo stinks I’m shocked the giants gave us anything for him their management has gone to S

[Losmeister]

3 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Ed Oliver had 2 sacks and a FF on Thanksgiving.  Not to mention a sack each week prior.

big day for sure, but i think he had a cumulative 2 sacks coming in ...no 3... he had 2, 2 weeks ago, now 3 in his last 2....\so hes coming on.

we'd sure like something similar

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, slats said:

A lot of us were on that bandwagon. I've read that JD is another guy (like Mac) who puts tape ahead of measurables. Would he have taken QW, too? Oliver? Or passed on the DL all together? 

Do you value measurables over tape? Seems to me it should be a combination, good tape with the measurables  aligning reasonably with the tape.

I can't lump JD with McCoffee because MacLoser seemed to not even consider measurables, or injury history as even factors. I doubt Douglas is like that plus he said analytics and measurables were important in his press conference.

In terms of Adams, in the last few weeks he has arguably not even been playing SS, more of a free roamer safety/linebacker/designated pass rusher type of role.

I am more in the camp of signing him at this point than trading him.

If you trade him, you need to look at original draft position at 6. So if you are trading draft value starts at the equivalent of a 6th pick, and then since he is likely an All Pro bump that up a few spots so I think you need draft value roughly equivalent to a #2 to trade him