A bunch of Giants articles about Leonard Williams buyer’s remorse suspiciously published concurrently

[Jet_Engine1]

3 hours ago, David Harris said:

QW’s college tape was the best DT tape just about ever. Was dominant every game and won almost every play. Not saying I love the pick- I wouldn’t taken Josh Allen.  But QW’s college tape was amazing

 

 

Q isnt a special athlete. His combine was fine. Not bad, for an undersized guy  but not "special". As for production, I'm not going to bullsh*t you and say I watched every Alabama game in 2018, or every Houston game, but I know the games I watched and the Highlights I saw, Quinnen was a solid player on a ridiculously overpowered Bama Defense, and the Alabama offense was also blowing people out, so they were always playing with a lead anyway. In the CFB Playoff, he was....fine. 

Quinnen got 1/3 of his 2018 sacks vs....Louisiana State. LOL. Picked up another vs. Citadel. Wow! But Clemson shut him down....

Oliver was a one man wrecking crew at a smaller school, probably the only guy on the squad that got drafted. And his workout numbers were ridiculous.
I HATED the pick. Another fricken DT? LOL. But even then, they took the wrong guy at the wrong position. If you're taking a shot that high, take the elite athlete. Not the Clone of a guy you already have on the roster.
 

[Losmeister]

6 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

I HATED the pick. Another fricken DT? LOL. But even then, they took the wrong guy at the wrong position. If you're taking a shot that high, take the elite athlete. Not the Clone of a guy you already have on the roster.
 

yup. but we gotta root/hope that he turns out, right?

which is not to say he is above being criticized. he's not. every Leo v 2.0 comment is warranted so far.

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Oliver was a one man wrecking crew at a smaller school, probably the only guy on the squad that got drafted. And his workout numbers were ridiculous.
I HATED the pick. Another fricken DT? LOL. But even then, they took the wrong guy at the wrong position. If you're taking a shot that high, take the elite athlete. Not the Clone of a guy you already have on the roster.

IIRC, Oliver was a high maintenance guy who was difficult to coach and there’s no way milquetoast-ass Mike Maccagnan was going to draft a guy like that 

[Jet_Engine1]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

IIRC, Oliver was a high maintenance guy who was difficult to coach and there’s no way milquetoast-ass Mike Maccagnan was going to draft a guy like that 

Yeah. He went nuts on his coach about wearing a coat or something on the sideline. Crazy, nasty headcase. Dont want THAT on your defensive line....

 

 

 

[LSJF]

4 hours ago, slats said:

A lot of us were on that bandwagon. I've read that JD is another guy (like Mac) who puts tape ahead of measurables. Would he have taken QW, too? Oliver? Or passed on the DL all together? 

My hope is that he would’ve addressed the need of pass rushing w the talented Josh Allen... 

[Beerfish]

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

IIRC, Oliver was a high maintenance guy who was difficult to coach and there’s no way milquetoast-ass Mike Maccagnan was going to draft a guy like that 

Yeah so dumbass won;t draft any questions there but promptly drafts jaqfat polite.  what a garbage gm.

[Joe W. Namath]

The giants arent resigning leonard williams.  He stinks!

[Big_Slick]

5 hours ago, slats said:

I'd like to think that Douglas would've been capable of managing free agency next year in such a way to get themselves a comp pick for Leo, but the bottom line is that the best they could've done would've been a pick at the end of the third round in 2021.

If JD is active in free agency next year that would negate the comp pick for Leo. It seems the Jets never get comp picks of any value, most likely because they couldn't draft for crap and had to be active in FA rather than sign their own draft picks before they hit FA.

[Big_Slick]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Leo is still only 25 or 26 years old and is a starting calibre Dlineman.

How old is our 3rd round pick from last year? 

nothing wrong with them (Giants) making that deal.  He walks in fa and they get a comp pick back most likely.

 

Leo will be getting a huge contract with a lot of guaranteed dollars. The question is does he dog it for the first two years before he tries for a third and final contract. I think he does a Mo Wilk and mails it in after he gets the guaranteed dollars.

[GreenFish]

Q at worse is Leonard Williams. Hopefully he becomes a better player. Leo is not a bad player. He’s just not a guy you resign for big bucks. I trust JD will handle the situation well. 
 

My expectation is for us to keep him for another 2 years. Unless he becomes a 8+ sack guy with very good run defense, I think we’ll trade him. That’s around the time Darnold will be getting paid. So, those young cheap draft picks will become more valuable then. 

[Irish Jet]

14 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Leo will be getting a huge contract with a lot of guaranteed dollars. The question is does he dog it for the first two years before he tries for a third and final contract. I think he does a Mo Wilk and mails it in after he gets the guaranteed dollars.

Wilkerson was legitimately elite before that contract. Top 10 DL in the league. Williams will be getting nothing near that - He's actually been regressing just about every year he's been in the NFL.

[Big_Slick]

2 hours ago, Losmeister said:

big day for sure, but i think he had a cumulative 2 sacks coming in ...no 3... he had 2, 2 weeks ago, now 3 in his last 2....\so hes coming on.

we'd sure like something similar

Ed Oliver had 2 sacks and a FF on Thanksgiving.

That just may have something to do with Dak's pocket awareness and his inability recognize pressure and his inability to make off script plays. The boy's OL is top 5-10 in the league and Dak only looks good when he has 4 seconds to stand there and throw to top 5 WR's, TE's  and can step into his throws without pressure, not mention a great running game.

I like Oliver and think he'll have more than a few sacks against Sam in the next five years, he's an excellent player.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Big_Slick
grammer

[Beerfish]

37 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Leo will be getting a huge contract with a lot of guaranteed dollars. The question is does he dog it for the first two years before he tries for a third and final contract. I think he does a Mo Wilk and mails it in after he gets the guaranteed dollars.

Well he has already blown it but lucky for him teams always have more money  than brains in fa.  His play does not merit a big contract but you are right he will get it.

[Welp]

What’s hilarious with people being on the Oliver boat is that up until a couple weeks ago Bills fans were talking about what a bust he was and not producing. They were complaining how he needed to put on weight since he was getting pushed around so just imagine how it would have been had he been drafted here with the #3 pick. The point shouldn’t even be that we should have taken Oliver it should be that using a #3 pick on a DT is not a good use of value for that high of a pick.

[Tony MaC]

Bust, underrated, whatever. Leo was expendable. They needed more picks, they got em. It was a good trade for Gang Green.

Q is the new project. We'll see if he does better. I'm not gonna right him off because the last consensus top 5 pick didn't work out.

[RutgersJetFan]

45 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Wilkerson was legitimately elite before that contract. Top 10 DL in the league. Williams will be getting nothing near that - He's actually been regressing just about every year he's been in the NFL.

IIRC there were some rumblings during negotiations that the Jets were worried Mo would do that if they paid him. I remember one of the writers (Manish maybe) tweeting about it.

[jgb]

Gentlemen gets another year and likely a lot more. He inherited a dumpster fire and has not drafted poorly. Remember as recently as January we still had fans defending Macc. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Quinnen got 1/3 of his 2018 sacks vs....Louisiana State. LOL.

The funny part is that this is like the fourth time somebody ate it on this one.

[isired]

Why cant it be that easy?
The point has nothing to do with picking in the 3rd and everything to do with the fact that we could have gotten better production from the 6th overall pick if we just picked the right guy. 
Ed Oliver was sitting there with a better college resume than Q... and Mac did typical Mac things, basing his board off of Mel Kiper instead of using his own two eyes. 

You know that if everybody knew how things were going to turn out, Tom Brady wouldn't have been passed over 6x by every team, he'd have been #1 overall. Etc.

[isired]

Ed Oliver was sitting there with a better college resume than Q...

It wasn't just Kiper. Q was thought of as an instant starter and eventual pro bowler, top 5 on everyone's board.

Ed Oliver:
Strengths

Elite athlete with high-end foot quickness, agility and fluidity

Built low and plays with leverage on his side

As twitchy and sudden as any interior lineman you will see

Freak-daddy workouts expected for quickness and explosion testing

Explodes into blockers with jarring pop for early advantages

Instinctive and early play diagnosis

Rare initial quickness to disrupt in gaps

Posted 53 tackles for loss in just three years

Direct, inside hands and plays under opponent's pads

Linebacker speed for extended range to tackle

Plays with consistent motor and overall hustle

Works to half-man in his rush

Tilts blocker with jab step before hitting slap-rip counter to opposite edge

Body control for efficient, edge to edge counters

Pairs spin counter with athletic ability to eat as secondary rusher

Weaknesses

Squatty, unimposing frame falls below NFL size norms inside

Scouts say he played under 280 pounds

Lacks functional length

Gets mauled by down blocks and double teams

Struggles at times when offenses run downhill at him

Gets clogged up against wide-bodies

Unable to sustain early jolts into extended power

Backdoors blocks in lateral pursuit rather than winning across the face

Forced to work excessively at disengaging from blocks

Failed to convert explosiveness into impressive sack totals

Rush attack is more predictable than diverse

Quinnen Williams:
Strengths

Low-man winner who plays from consistent position of leverage

Sets up shop on blockers with quick, accurate hands

Adjusts hands and body positioning according to blocking scheme

Able to brace and use down blocker's momentum against them in his re-direct

Varies engagement approaches against blockers

Adequate strength and body control as two-gapper

Gets eyes around blocker and spies on ball carrier

Diagnoses like he knew the play call

Efficient, purposeful and fluid in his flow

Pursuit quickness extends radius as playmaker

Inside-out feet combined with punishing slap softens edge for B-gap rush

Knees bent and pads low on inside counter rush

Accelerates through redirect blocks to harass quarterback

Heat-seeking missile with big closing burst once he's locked in

Weaknesses

Physical traits don't stand out

Could take a concerted effort to keep his weight up

Lacks desired mass to withstand pressure from double teams

Overall lack of thickness in chest and broadness through shoulders

Must win with leverage as play strength is average by NFL standards

Not as effective against downhill running attacks

Gets wired to blocks against longer, stronger interior types

Lack of length makes controlling NFL guards more difficult

Could have issues generating a bull-rush

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

8 hours ago, Maxman said:

Love this!

Now Douglas is going to sign Leonard Williams back for 3 million a year. J/K.

Don't want him back.

Defense has never looked better.  From Leonard Williams 1st day through his last as a Jet the D doesn't look close to as good as it looks today.

[Irish Jet]

31 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

IIRC there were some rumblings during negotiations that the Jets were worried Mo would do that if they paid him. I remember one of the writers (Manish maybe) tweeting about it.

I fully supported the extension. F*ck me. 

[JTJet]

28 minutes ago, isired said:

3 hours ago, JTJet said:

Why cant it be that easy?
The point has nothing to do with picking in the 3rd and everything to do with the fact that we could have gotten better production from the 6th overall pick if we just picked the right guy. 
Ed Oliver was sitting there with a better college resume than Q... and Mac did typical Mac things, basing his board off of Mel Kiper instead of using his own two eyes. 

You know that if everybody knew how things were going to turn out, Tom Brady wouldn't have been passed over 6x by every team, he'd have been #1 overall. Etc.

Not even close to the same thing. Nobody had Tom Brady remotely rated to be drafted. 

Ed Oliver by some was viewed as the best overall player his sophomore year and even up until draft day, some people were still debating if he or Q were better. 

[JTJet]

21 minutes ago, isired said:

 

It wasn't just Kiper. Q was thought of as an instant starter and eventual pro bowler, top 5 on everyone's board.

 

This is completely subjective. Ed Oliver was viewed the exact same way his sophomore year AND he had far more game tape and production. 

[RutgersJetFan]

1 minute ago, Irish Jet said:

I fully supported the extension. F*ck me. 

Same. Premium position, anchor in the locker room, top-100 guy and 2nd-team All Pro. Seemed like a no-brainer. Even Rex said he never had any issues up until he started getting hurt.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Yeah so dumbass won;t draft any questions there but promptly drafts jaqfat polite.  what a garbage gm.

Yeah he was the worst.

But imagine if he hit on 2 Pro Bowl CBs inadvertently? haha

[isired]

This is completely subjective. Ed Oliver was viewed the exact same way his sophomore year AND he had far more game tape and production. 

I liked Oliver and always prefer production to measurables, I'm just saying that it wasn't ridiculous to take Q.

[Irish Jet]

4 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Same. Premium position, anchor in the locker room, top-100 guy and 2nd-team All Pro. Seemed like a no-brainer. Even Rex said he never had any issues up until he started getting hurt.

It broke my heart.

Remember arguing with @Sperm Edwards and others on here that he was the player we couldn't afford to lose. Then he just mails it in and I'm like what in the f*ck.

[RobR]

11 minutes ago, JTJet said:

This is completely subjective. Ed Oliver was viewed the exact same way his sophomore year AND he had far more game tape and production. 

Some viewed him as the best defensive player in the country as a true freshman.....myself included. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

39 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Same. Premium position, anchor in the locker room, top-100 guy and 2nd-team All Pro. Seemed like a no-brainer. Even Rex said he never had any issues up until he started getting hurt.

Me too. And I remember discounting the reports about the rumblings. That was a mistake. It's not like this team hesitates to hand out dumb contracts. The fact that they were so reticent to do it with Wilkerson should have been given real credence.

[RutgersJetFan]

24 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Me too. And I remember discounting the reports about the rumblings. That was a mistake. It's not like this team hesitates to hand out dumb contracts. The fact that they were so reticent to do it with Wilkerson should have been given real credence.

I just assume that every decision they are making is bad. Had they paid Wilkerson immediately I probably would have scoffed.

[JTJet]

46 minutes ago, RobR said:

Some viewed him as the best defensive player in the country as a true freshman.....myself included. 

For sure. His Freshman year blew Quinnens Feshman year out of the water, not even remotely close. 

54 minutes ago, isired said:

59 minutes ago, JTJet said:

This is completely subjective. Ed Oliver was viewed the exact same way his sophomore year AND he had far more game tape and production. 

I liked Oliver and always prefer production to measurables, I'm just saying that it wasn't ridiculous to take Q.

Production is what really matters in the end so yeah, I would prefer that too. I think GMs get caught up in the hype of big name school prospects. 

Look at a direct freshman year comparison. 

Q Williams 11 Tackles 6 For Loss 2 Sacks... in 14 Games

E Oliver 46 Tackles 22 For Loss 5 Sacks 6 Pass Defense 2 Forced Fumbles... in 2 less games!

People can get caught up in the argument if Q was a starter or not, but if he was more talented at the point of his freshman year, he would have been the starter on his team. Oliver showed consitency for 2.5 years before Injury. William's 2018 was basically what Oliver did in both 2016 and 2017 and was on track to do in 2018. 

[JetsFanatic]

8 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Leo is still only 25 or 26 years old and is a starting calibre Dlineman.

How old is our 3rd round pick from last year? 

nothing wrong with them (Giants) making that deal.  He walks in fa and they get a comp pick back most likely.

 

You’re crazy, it was a horrible deal for the Giants. If the Jets did what Giants did, give up a high 3rd rounder in the middle of a rebuild, you would be screaming.

BTW, Nathan Shepherd just turned 26, and is having more of an impact than Willam’s did.

[slimjasi]

In all seriousness, the only person on the planet I saw praise the Giants for that trade was a troll (“jets fan”) on this message board.

 

[RobR]

3 minutes ago, JTJet said:

Production is what really matters in the end so yeah, I would prefer that too. I think GMs get caught up in the hype of big name school prospects. 

Look at a direct freshman year comparison. 

Q Williams 11 Tackles 6 For Loss 2 Sacks... in 14 Games

E Oliver 46 Tackles 22 For Loss 5 Sacks 6 Pass Defense 2 Forced Fumbles... in 2 less games!

People can get caught up in the argument if Q was a starter or not, but if he was more talented at the point of his freshman year, he would have been the starter on his team. Oliver showed consitency for 2.5 years before Injury. William's 2018 was basically what Oliver did in both 2016 and 2017 and was on track to do in 2018. 

Don't forget that Williams was redshirted, so you're comparing his RS freshman year compared to Olivers true freshman year.

So a little recap: Oliver was a two time All American and won an Outland Trophy as the best Lineman in the country regardless of offense or defense before QW even became a starter for Bama.