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A bunch of Giants articles about Leonard Williams buyer’s remorse suspiciously published concurrently

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10 minutes ago, RobR said:

Don't forget that Williams was redshirted, so you're comparing his RS freshman year compared to Olivers true freshman year.

So a little recap: Oliver was a two time All American and won an Outland Trophy as the best Lineman in the country regardless of offense or defense before QW even became a starter for Bama. 

Well that was intentional, just to show that Oliver was making a direct impact at the first available opportunity while Q was buried behind people. 

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I don't think they'll resign him, unless he has a big game somehow. If he has a 2 sack game or something they can rationalize it with "well once he learned the system he looked a lot better..." or whatever... But without that, with all the heat the organization is getting about this season already, I don't think they keep him. 

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1 hour ago, JetsFanatic said:

You’re crazy, it was a horrible deal for the Giants. If the Jets did what Giants did, give up a high 3rd rounder in the middle of a rebuild, you would be screaming.

BTW, Nathan Shepherd just turned 26, and is having more of an impact than William’s did.

yeah sheppard is OLDER than Leo.   So we are rebuilding with a 26 year old and it is great, we used a 3rd rounder for him and they get a 4-5 year vet who is younger and it is a horrible move for them?

I am not fan of leo williams if you have seen my posting history but if you can get what you think is a decent young starter for what they gave up it is not that bad.

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5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

IIRC, Oliver was a high maintenance guy who was difficult to coach and there’s no way milquetoast-ass Mike Maccagnan was going to draft a guy like that 

He also put up historic triangle numbers, and there’s really no way Maccagnan was going to draft a guy like that. 

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7 hours ago, JTJet said:

Ed Oliver was sitting there with a better college resume than Q...

Olivers college resume wasn't anywhere near what Q's was.

Not even close

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Olivers college resume wasn't anywhere near what Q's was.

Not even close

You're high as a kite lol. Might want to go back and compare. It's not remotely close in favor of Oliver. 

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Olivers college resume wasn't anywhere near what Q's was.

Not even close

You're right. Olivers was much better and it's not even comparable.

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That's the thing, Leonard didn't live up to the draft pick position but he wasn't a bad player. yet somehow the defensive line is actually playing much better without him. Crazy. But great news.
The whole team is playing better now not just the dline. Something motivated them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using JetNation.com mobile app

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8 minutes ago, JTJet said:

 

Just so it's here for review 

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

...I'm pretty sure this clarifies that argument. 

And that is leaving out all of his accolades. He won the Willis trophy as a true freshman, then won the Outland a year later. 3X 1st team AA. Conference player of the year, etc. 

The following year QW started at Bama. Then we drafted him.

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3 minutes ago, RobR said:

And that is leaving out all of his accolades. He won the Willis trophy as a true freshman, then won the Outland a year later. 3X 1st team AA. Conference player of the year, etc. 

The following year QW started at Bama. Then we drafted him.

Exactly. Q did at least win the Outland the year after Oliver, so I think that should be stated in fairness. 

And another point is that Q played with some of the absolute best players in the NCAA on his team and maybe the greatest college coach of all time. Oliver had none of that. 

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It's not like this is an apples to apples comparison. Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

I would have taken Oliver at the time and in hindsight I'd take Allen like everybody else but it's kind of curious that Williams doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt that the chosen ginger gets in terms of making allowances for situation.

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1 minute ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

It's not like this is an apples to apples comparison. Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

I would have taken Oliver at the time and in hindsight I'd take Allen like everybody else but it's kind of curious that Williams doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt that the chosen ginger gets in terms of making allowances for situation.

Personally I care about direct comparisons for numbers regardless of specific scheme. You are what your numbers say you are, same goes for Sammy. 

Unfortunately as of right now, Q's numbers say he wasnt the right pick. 

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18 minutes ago, JTJet said:

Exactly. Q did at least win the Outland the year after Oliver, so I think that should be stated in fairness. 

And another point is that Q played with some of the absolute best players in the NCAA on his team and maybe the greatest college coach of all time. Oliver had none of that. 

He also faced better competition. That argument always goes both ways unless you're talking about somebody who went to Vanderbilt or something.

Oliver was basically the same player he is right now when he walked onto campus. Most people didn't know who Williams was a year ago. Upside vs known commodity is open to debate, but if you're going to have that debate after eleven games obviously it's going to tend to favor the latter.

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My preference going into the draft assuming Bosa would be gone and we’d go defensive side of the ball was

Allen

Oliver

Williams

To be honest though, by the time we picked Q, I was resigned to it. Most experts had him in their top 3 and I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. It just didn’t make sense though, unless we were drafting him as a Leo replacement.

Then reading the reports out of camp, it dawned on me this could become a historically bad draft class for the Jets.

QW and Polite were running with the 2s and 3s, Edoga and Wesco weren’t even doing that, Austin was on the shelf, and the one guy who seemed like he could at least get in the rotation at LB had about 34 prior shoulder injuries coming out of school.

If Quinnen doesn’t pan out, what a waste of an offseason we had.

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1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

It's not like this is an apples to apples comparison. Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

I would have taken Oliver at the time and in hindsight I'd take Allen like everybody else but it's kind of curious that Williams doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt that the chosen ginger gets in terms of making allowances for situation.

That’s because even the staunchest of Macc haters here, those who hated every move he ever made, were convinced from draft night “the one who none shall ever question” was the only pick that Macc had ever gotten right.

He is the outlier.

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17 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

It's not like this is an apples to apples comparison. Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

I would have taken Oliver at the time and in hindsight I'd take Allen like everybody else but it's kind of curious that Williams doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt that the chosen ginger gets in terms of making allowances for situation.

He has a better supporting cast and coach.

Also Qb is a bit harder to play than NT

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5 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

He also faced better competition. That argument always goes both ways unless you're talking about somebody who went to Vanderbilt or something.

Oliver was basically the same player he is right now when he walked onto campus. Most people didn't know who Williams was a year ago. Upside vs known commodity is open to debate, but if you're going to have that debate after eleven games obviously it's going to tend to favor the latter.

Which is why the whole debate started in the first place. Oliver had a better resume, it's not something really even up to debate from a pure production/accolades standpoint.

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13 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

My preference going into the draft assuming Bosa would be gone and we’d go defensive side of the ball was

Allen

Oliver

Williams

To be honest though, by the time we picked Q, I was resigned to it. Most experts had him in their top 3 and I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. It just didn’t make sense though, unless we were drafting him as a Leo replacement.

Then reading the reports out of camp, it dawned on me this could become a historically bad draft class for the Jets.

QW and Polite were running with the 2s and 3s, Edoga and Wesco weren’t even doing that, Austin was on the shelf, and the one guy who seemed like he could at least get in the rotation at LB had about 34 prior shoulder injuries coming out of school.

If Quinnen doesn’t pan out, what a waste of an offseason we had.

At least Bless is playing well, thankfully. Cashman showed a ton of promise too. 

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34 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

Do you even watch the games?  Quennin Williams NEVER plays the nose, only three and five technique. When we go 3-4 it's McClendon or Fats at the 0 Tech.....even Shepherd. I'd be shocked if he lined up on the nose more than once or twice a game.

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

yeah sheppard is OLDER than Leo.   So we are rebuilding with a 26 year old and it is great, we used a 3rd rounder for him and they get a 4-5 year vet who is younger and it is a horrible move for them?

I am not fan of leo williams if you have seen my posting history but if you can get what you think is a decent young starter for what they gave up it is not that bad.

You have to consider the contract though. It’s not just a 3rd and 4th, because they are also going to pay him. Shep will be a lot cheaper. 
 

It’s one of those trades that it’s a great trade for us. It’s not awful for them. If they sign him to say 4/40 then it becomes an ok to good trade for them. If they don’t sign him, then it’s just a miscalculation. Again not awful.

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53 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

It's not like this is an apples to apples comparison. Williams is mostly playing nose tackle and Oliver is playing three-technique with the bulk of his snaps coming on passing downs. If the roles are reversed I'm more confident in Williams matching Oliver's performance than vice versa.

I would have taken Oliver at the time and in hindsight I'd take Allen like everybody else but it's kind of curious that Williams doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt that the chosen ginger gets in terms of making allowances for situation.

I remember you were not be of the more vocal supporters of Oliver. Good call. Got to give all these guys time though.

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Just now, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Yeah, let's do this again, Mrs. Edoga. Worked out great last time.

It sure did, it made you look like the fool that you are. Maybe you can point out the breakdown of someone else, reference their website, and claim it as your own.

Now go search for some film showing QW playing the nose. 

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12 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

You have to consider the contract though. It’s not just a 3rd and 4th, because they are also going to pay him. Shep will be a lot cheaper. 
 

It’s one of those trades that it’s a great trade for us. It’s not awful for them. If they sign him to say 4/40 then it becomes an ok to good trade for them. If they don’t sign him, then it’s just a miscalculation. Again not awful.

Good post.

I’m very happy with the deal we got.

However, the Giants will have a ton of cap space next year, and I don’t see Leo getting top dollar if he re signs with them.But even if he comes close, not only can they afford it, but they are desperate for help on their front 7. Getting a 25 year old proven starter on their DL to go alongside Lawrence is a big need for them, and they got a free look this year to decide. If they keep him, a 3 and a future 4 isn’t a lot to pay for a player like that.

Using the sixth pick in the draft However was.

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2 minutes ago, RobR said:

It sure did, it made you look like the fool that you are. Maybe you can point out the breakdown of someone else, reference their website, and claim it as your own.

Now go search for some film showing QW playing the nose. 

Let's all just agree that Oliver was the better college prospect and move back on to arguing about Leo lol

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21 minutes ago, RobR said:

It sure did, it made you look like the fool that you are. Maybe you can point out the breakdown of someone else, reference their website, and claim it as your own.

Now go search for some film showing QW playing the nose. 

Why would I do that? You have already demonstrated that you have either a vision problem or an honesty problem. You are immune to video evidence that you're wrong. It would be a better use of my time to debate the merits of Todd Bowles with somebody who's got Bowles in his username.

Somebody else posted a video on the last page of the Quinnen thread. Guess what.

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1 minute ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Why would I do that? You have already demonstrated that you have either a vision problem or an honesty problem. You are immune to video evidence that you're wrong. It would be a better use of my time to debate the merits of Todd Bowles with somebody who's got Bowles in his username.

Somebody else posted a video on the last page of the Quinnen thread. Guess what.

Should be pretty easy to post a link. 

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3 hours ago, JTJet said:

You're high as a kite lol. Might want to go back and compare. It's not remotely close in favor of Oliver. 

Not remotely close.  

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

You might want to stop calling me high, in one season he topped Oliver.  

He has topped Oliver exactly one time since they began their college careers...

-Most Sacks in a season 

Oliver has put up higher numbers than Q in the following 

-Most Tackles in a season

-Most Solo Tackles in a season

-Most Assisted Tackles in a season

-Most Tackles for Loss

-Most Passes Deflected

-Most Forced Fumbles

-Most Fumbles Recovered

And just to put the explanation point on it, Oliver accomplished each of these in only 12 game seasons. The only time Q topped Oliver, he played 14 games lol. 

 

 

 

 

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Gettleman is awful.  And I say that as am impartial observor.

I don't care how good Saquan Barkley is.  He's a RB.  Passing on Darnold with Eli where he was in his career was the wrong move (to our benefit.)  The good franchises cut ties one year too early, not too late.  Also the Leonard Williams trade is a headscratcher, as was the way they handled the Landon Collins thing. 

John Mara just doesn't live up to his father.  He's like Woody, who merely lucked into Darnold.  I think Giants fans are starting to sense that these guys are in over their head.  Gotta fire Gettleman and Shurmer and start over in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, JTJet said:

 

Just so it's here for review 

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

...I'm pretty sure this clarifies that argument. 

Try their final college seasons, the season that led to their draft rankings.  Not 32 starts vs 24

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26 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Try their final college seasons, the season that led to their draft rankings.  Not 32 starts vs 24

I'm going off what I remember reading not watching them play in college, but wasn't Oliver playing nose (at 280-285 lbs) last year? 

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7 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

It broke my heart.

Remember arguing with @Sperm Edwards and others on here that he was the player we couldn't afford to lose. Then he just mails it in and I'm like what in the f*ck.

Told you so ;).

He was a terrific all around player, but so much of what we paid him on the mega contract was due to the sack numbers that prior year, and IIRC like half or most of those came when the game was essentially over one way or the other (20+ point spread at the time of most of his sacks); rendering them useful for Mo, his agent, and no one else.

There was more that helped inflate his perceived worth, but whatever at this point. A year earlier he was looked at as maybe a $10M per guy, then after his glorious 12* sacks it ballooned to $17M, which then really became $18.5M per when the dust settled. They should have traded him while they had interested suitors, even if it wasn't quite what the team fully hoped to get in return.

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14 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Ed Oliver had 2 sacks and a FF on Thanksgiving.  Not to mention a sack each week prior.

Stats don’t matter!!!

(unless they can be used to support how good a Jets player is)

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