A bunch of Giants articles about Leonard Williams buyer’s remorse suspiciously published concurrently

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

32 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm going off what I remember reading not watching them play in college, but wasn't Oliver playing nose (at 280-285 lbs) last year? 

He was the nose tackle, or effectively so, all three years at Houston. By effectively I'm mostly referring to stuff like when there are only two down linemen, which results in both of them getting double-teamed regardless of alignment.

[Sperm Edwards]

10 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

He was the nose tackle, or effectively so, all three years at Houston. By effectively I'm mostly referring to stuff like when there are only two down linemen, which results in both of them getting double-teamed regardless of alignment.

That was why I mentioned it. Not exactly apples to apples in terms of ease of him or QW getting to the QB if the latter was lining up in gaps. Particularly when others around him also commanded serious attention. 

That doesn't therrfore make QW a big zero; just that their respective opportunities seem to have been decidedly unequal. 

[JTJet]

4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Try their final college seasons, the season that led to their draft rankings.  Not 32 starts vs 24

That's just moronic. Why would we selectively choose just a single season where one player played 15 games and the other played half of that (8) due to injury ? .... oh wait, cause it's the only way it will fit your narrative. Their careers are as close to a direct comparison as you can get, 29 vs 32. Get out of here with that nonsense lol 

But for the sake of argument, if that's how you want to do it, we are going to adjust Oliver's numbers to fit a full 15 games and the outcome still proves you wrong...

Q Williams 

45 Tackles 26 Assisted 71 Total 19.5 For Loss 8.5 Sacks 1 Pass deflected 

E Oliver (adjusted from 8 to 15 Games based on his per game production)

55 Tackles 47 Assisted 102 Total 25.5 For Loss 5 Sacks 4 Pass deflected 2 Forced Fumbles 

So clearly Ed Oliver was on pace to blow the doors off Q. Numbers dont lie man, and I wish I were wrong. 

[Big_Slick]

13 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

IIRC there were some rumblings during negotiations that the Jets were worried Mo would do that if they paid him. I remember one of the writers (Manish maybe) tweeting about it.

If I recall correctly - didn't Mo get busted for weed while driving to a Jets practice? He got paid and retired and is now smoking the best herb in the world. Hey, that's a win for him.

[Big_Slick]

13 hours ago, jgb said:

Gentlemen gets another year and likely a lot more. He inherited a dumpster fire and has not drafted poorly. Remember as recently as January we still had fans defending Macc. 

Gettleman has been a horror show as a GM. Picking a RB at #2 overall while Sam (and other QB prospects) where there for the taking was a 'past Jets' Macc/Idzak move. Eli was cooked and that moron thought that OBJ and Eli with a top RB would/could turn that disaster of a roster into a contender was a really bad move and it'll cost the Gints for years to come.

Hey - Where is the Danny Dimes coverage? Passed on Sam and ended up with Danny Dumps. LOL

[NYJ1]

22 hours ago, T0mShane said:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/leonard-williams-task-prove-giants-were-right-and-jets-were-wrong/

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/inside-leonard-williams-debate-whats-his-worth-to-giants/

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/59985/keeping-leonard-williams-with-giants-not-all-about-the-money?platform=amp

 

The Post has two, Schwartz has another one, and it was a topic on SNY last night. Theme of all three is the same: why would the Giants trade a high two for a guy like this during a rebuild season, and how can they justify paying him? If you’re of a conspiratorial mind, they’re going to clean house at the end of the season—starting with Gettleman—and they’re going to use the absurd Williams trade as the hook. The Maras hate firing anyone and John Mara is super-sensitive to public criticism, so having all these stories hit the papers at the same time feels like someone is greasing the skids and lessening the PR fallout. 
 

Bottom line: big win for Joe Douglas.

It's a big win for JD NOT because of the Giants and the potential PR fallout. That's irrelevant to the Jets. It's a big win because:

1) There isn't an educated person out there that can't see that this team is SEVERELY lacking in talent. So, therefore, stock piling draft choices becomes a very important tool to use in the draft. Trading Williams gave JD TWO additional, and badly needed, draft choices to use in April.

2) The Jets defense does NOT appear to be missing Williams. I've always thought Williams was a good player. Not necessarily the guy Jet fans thought we were getting, but a solid player just the same. However, with the recent emergence of Nate Shepard and the addition of Quinnen Williams (Williams especially), the Jets haven't missed a beat on run defense. The transition was seamless? At least that's what I see?

The thing for me is this team badly needs the entire OL overhauled. In fact, I'd be fine with JD devoting all of his resources to the OL alone. The Jets NEED a signature Left Tackle to anchor the OL. With the Jets currently sitting at 4 wins, and all indications point to them winning the next two weeks, getting the very best LT in the draft might not be within their reach. JD might just have to trade up to get the player he covets the most.

So honestly I find this to be an excellent move by Douglas. I wish Williams all the future success with the Giants. I hope he has a long and fulfilling football career. However, trading him was a necessary move for the Jets in their efforts to rebuild the team.

[Big_Slick]

13 hours ago, isired said:

 

It wasn't just Kiper. Q was thought of as an instant starter and eventual pro bowler, top 5 on everyone's board.

 

I like the draft analysis talk but the only real rating are where these guys are picked by the professional GM's. Hint - Macc was NOT a top 30 GM.

[Jetster]

The Quinnen Williams & Ed Oliver stories haven't been written yet. My god, can we let any players develop or do they all have to be All Pros instantly? 

Ed Oliver is ahead of Quinnen Williams in maturity physically. That's just a fact, just look at them. QWs technique & 1st step jumped off the tape to guys who watch that stuff. QWs still a baby, age wise & physically. We saw QW take a good Oakland Center, drive him 2/3 yards into the backfield & blow up a play Sunday. 

While all of you guys are arguing about the 2 the reality is the pick for the Jets should have been Josh Allen, especially seeing now how Shepard, Foley & Phillips are playing. Plus the veteran McLendon. But, on the other hand GW has these guys beasting vs the run & if JD adds a player like Yannick and also has another pass rusher fall in his lap, this defense next year could be epic with Bless Austin playing the way he is. 

Thank god JD is here, because you & I know that going forward the Oline, Pass rushers, CB & WR will be the order of the offseason. 

[Philc1]

9 hours ago, JTJet said:

Which is why the whole debate started in the first place. Oliver had a better resume

Playing against way weaker competition 

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, RobR said:

And that is leaving out all of his accolades. He won the Willis trophy as a true freshman, then won the Outland a year later. 3X 1st team AA. Conference player of the year, etc. 

The following year QW started at Bama. Then we drafted him.

The Ed Oliver fanclub back in full force after being as quiet as the Jonah fanclub for ten weeks 

[sourceworx]

Good riddance. Our D-Line started playing considerably better after he was traded.

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, JTJet said:

That's just moronic. Why would we selectively choose just a single season where one player played 15 games and the other played half of that (8) due to injury ? .... oh wait, cause it's the only way it will fit your narrative. Their careers are as close to a direct comparison as you can get, 29 vs 32. Get out of here with that nonsense lol 

But for the sake of argument, if that's how you want to do it, we are going to adjust Oliver's numbers to fit a full 15 games and the outcome still proves you wrong...

Q Williams 

45 Tackles 26 Assisted 71 Total 19.5 For Loss 8.5 Sacks 1 Pass deflected 

E Oliver (adjusted from 8 to 15 Games based on his per game production)

55 Tackles 47 Assisted 102 Total 25.5 For Loss 5 Sacks 4 Pass deflected 2 Forced Fumbles 

So clearly Ed Oliver was on pace to blow the doors off Q. Numbers dont lie man, and I wish I were wrong. 

Moronic? 

Selectively choose one season?  
when it’s their last season and QWs season was that dominant?  Against better comp?  Yes.  But wait, adjusted numbers?  LOL.  That’s what you’re talking about?  First you posted career numbers where Oliver played more games, adjusted nothing for QW.  Now you post numbers and add adjusted, imaginary stats to make your point?  And talk about “moronic”

Move on?

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Big_Slick said:

Gettleman has been a horror show as a GM. Picking a RB at #2 overall while Sam (and other QB prospects) where there for the taking was a 'past Jets' Macc/Idzak move. Eli was cooked and that moron thought that OBJ and Eli with a top RB would/could turn that disaster of a roster into a contender was a really bad move and it'll cost the Gints for years to come.

Hey - Where is the Danny Dimes coverage? Passed on Sam and ended up with Danny Dumps. LOL

You can do better than citing Gettleman drafting the OROY as evidence that he sucks. Hell, I don’t think Gettleman is bad and I can do better than that.

[Big_Slick]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can do better than using Gettleman drafting the OROY as proof that he sucks.

Is last years OROY going to be even mentioned as a difference maker this year? And last season what did the OROY get the Gints? A 6th pick overall where Gettleman picked Danny Dimes when he had Eli and OBJ to complement the RB.

The Jets held the OROY to *ONE* yard on 13 carries.

That pick was maybe a 1990's NFL good choice. Passing on Sam will be the end of him and put the Gint's at the bottom of a lousy NFCE division for years to come.

[slimjasi]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can do better than citing Gettleman drafting the OROY as evidence that he sucks. Hell, I don’t think Gettleman is bad and I can do better than that.

There is a very good argument to be made that Barkley wasn't a great pick. 

I was highly critical of it at the time because of how replaceable and short-lived running backs are in today's NFL. 

And with Barkley's second year slump, the pick looks even more questionable. 

[slimjasi]

Just now, Big_Slick said:

 

That pick was maybe a 1990's NFL good choice. Passing on Sam will be the end of him and put the Gint's at the bottom of a lousy NFCE division for years to come.

If Jones ends up being good, not taking Darnold/Allen/Jackson was ok. 

But I was never crazy about taking a running back number 2 overall. Even if he was Barry Sanders, he wasn't a need for a team that required a proper rebuild.  

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

There is a very good argument to be made that Barkley wasn't a great pick. 

I was highly critical of it at the time because of how replaceable and short-lived running backs are in today's NFL. 

And with Barkley's second year slump, the pick looks even more questionable. 

You can question the pick (I guess) but in no universe does picking the OROY make one a "horror show" of a GM. Hyperbole is an obvious tell of an unconvincing argument/agenda.

[jgb]

18 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Is last years OROY going to be even mentioned as a difference maker this year? And last season what did the OROY get the Gints? A 6th pick overall where Gettleman picked Danny Dimes when he had Eli and OBJ to complement the RB.

The Jets held the OROY to *ONE* yard on 13 carries.

That pick was maybe a 1990's NFL good choice. Passing on Sam will be the end of him and put the Gint's at the bottom of a lousy NFCE division for years to come.

Sam has done nothing to elicit "non-buyer's remorse." If you want to use the hindsight logical fallacy correctly, mock him for not taking Lamar Jackson.

[JTJet]

15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Moronic? 

Selectively choose one season?  
when it’s their last season and QWs season was that dominant?  Against better comp?  Yes.  But wait, adjusted numbers?  LOL.  That’s what you’re talking about?  First you posted career numbers where Oliver played more games, adjusted nothing for QW.  Now you post numbers and add adjusted, imaginary stats to make your point?  And talk about “moronic”

Move on?

You're the one comparing a 15 game season to someone's 8 game season, what sense does that make? Of course Quinnen would have better numbers the last year, he played 7 more games than Oliver lol. The only way to fairly compare their last year is to base off of an average/per game basis, so to make it simple, here is "actual per game" instead of adjusted for the whole season...

Q Williams

3 Tackles 1.73 Assist 4.73 Total 1.3 For Loss .56 Sacks .06 Pass Deflects 

E Oliver 

3.66 Tackles 3.13 Assist 6.8 Total 1.68 For Loss .33 Sacks .26 Pass Deflects .13 Forced Fumbles 

If Ed Oliver played 15 games his last year like Q, he would have crushed him. Funny thing is I dont care for either player, and was a Josh Allen guy. The only reason i got in the debate was to show that from a numbers standpoint, saying Q had a better college resume was flat out incorrect. 

[slimjasi]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can question the pick (I guess) but in no universe does picking the OROY make one a "horror show" of a GM. Hyperbole is an obvious tell of an unconvincing argument/agenda.

Yea, I disagree. 

OROY is a nice award, but ultimately, has very little bearing on how well a given GM built a team's roster (i.e. did his job). Again, Barkley is a nice player, but he plays one of the least valuable (and most replaceable/interchangeable) positions on the field. 

Besides picking Jones and Barkley (who had an amazing rookie season but has had an incredibly disappointing second season), Gettleman's major moves over the last two off-seasons have been to upgrade the offensive line and defense.  How has that worked out? Currently, the Giants offensive line is mediocre at best and their defense is awful (one of the very worst units in the league). 

I'm not going to say he has been a "horror show," but he has been a lot closer to bad then good.

He took over a 2-14 roster, and two years later, he still has a 2-4 win roster.

[slimjasi]

22 minutes ago, jgb said:

Sam has done nothing to elicit "non-buyer's remorse." If you want to use the hindsight logical fallacy correctly, mock him for not taking Lamar Jackson.

It's too early to know which QB he should have taken. 

But it's never too early to question using the number 2 overall pick on a running back. 

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

Yea, I disagree. 

OROY is a nice award, but ultimately, has very little bearing on how well a given GM built a team's roster (i.e. did his job). Again, Barkley is a nice player, but he plays one of the least valuable (and most replaceable/interchangeable) positions on the field. 

Besides picking Jones and Barkley (who had an amazing rookie season but has had an incredibly disappointing second season), Gettleman's major moves over the last two off-seasons have been to upgrade the offensive line and defense.  How has that worked out? Currently, the Giants offensive line is mediocre at best and their defense is awful (one of the very worst units in the league). 

I'm not going to say he has been a "horror show," but he has been a lot closer to bad then good.

He took over a 2-14 roster, and two years later, he still has a 2-4 win roster.

Disagreement is fine. Although I ask how we would judge these same moves were he the Jets second year GM. Remember: we had Macc defenders on here as late as January.

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

It's too early to know which QB he should have taken. 

But it's never too early to question using the number 2 overall pick on a running back. 

If you're gonna pick a RB number 2, better make sure he is the OROY and you don't Fournette the pick.

Maybe Gettleman wasn't sold on any of the QBs remaining and didn't rate them as franchise guys. Allen, Darnold and Rosen haven't proven him wrong, yet.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Disagreement is fine. Although I ask how we would judge these same moves were he the Jets second year GM. Remember: we had Macc defenders on here as late as January.

If we had taken a running back with the number 2 overall pick after going 2-14, I would have crucified whoever the GM was. 

Of course there would be people defending it, but they would be just as wrong as all of the Macc people were. 

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It's too early to know which QB he should have taken. 

But it's never too early to question using the number 2 overall pick on a running back. 

And yet people defend the Jamal Adams pick around here like we're attacking their mothers.

I guess never living in the NYC area has made me think the Jets/Giants rivalry is dumb. Different conference, different division, play each other like once every 5 years. I am not invested needing the Giants to be bad that I apply a different standard to them than any other team. In fact, the Giants saved us from seeing a bald Tom Brady gloating about the "Perfect Season" for the next 50 years.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

If you're gonna pick a RB number 2, better make sure he is the OROY and you don't Fournette the pick.

Maybe Gettleman wasn't sold on any of the QBs remaining and didn't rate them as franchise guys. Allen, Darnold and Rosen haven't proven him wrong, yet.

No one has "proven" him wrong yet. None of these guys have played two full seasons. 

Again, the OROY doesn't really help that much. It's a shiny thing to point to, but it doesn't move the needle. A top 5 pick is about getting an impact player at a premium position. QB, offensive tackle, pass-rusher, corner, and possibly WR. IMO, that's it. You take a stud at one of those positions or you trade down. 

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

And yet people defend the Jamal Adams pick around here like we're attacking their mothers.

I guess never living in the NYC area has made me think the Jets/Giants rivalry is dumb. Different conference, different division, play each other like once every 5 years. I am not invested needing the Giants to be bad that I apply a different standard to them than any other team. In fact, the Giants saved us from seeing a bald Tom Brady gloating about the "Perfect Season" for the next 50 years.

I'm not invested in the Giants being bad at all. They just happen to be . . . really bad

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

No one has "proven" him wrong yet. None of these guys have played two full seasons. 

Again, the OROY doesn't really help that much. It's a shiny thing to point to, but it doesn't move the needle. A top 5 pick is about getting an impact player at a premium position. QB, offensive tackle, pass-rusher, corner, and possibly WR. IMO, that's it. You take a stud at one of those positions or you trade down. 

Again, for all we know he only liked Baker and thought the other QBs sucked. Unlike Macc, Gettleman is willing to buck consensus if he believes in something. That's a good thing (if you get more right than wrong). So far, he isn't wrong.

[slimjasi]

I can't argue that the Adams pick was a great pick when we passed on Mahomes and Watson, but I will note that Adams is having a bigger impact for the Jets than Barkely is for the Giants this season. 

He also embarrassed him on one of the highlight plays of the year. 

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

I'm not invested in the Giants being bad at all. They just happen to be . . . really bad

Can't imagine where that leaves us. Giants have won the Super Bowl more recently than we made the playoffs.

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

I can't argue that the Adams pick was a great pick when we passed on Mahomes and Watson, but I will note that Adams is having a bigger impact for the Jets than Barkely is for the Giants this season. 

He also embarrassed him on one of the highlight plays of the year. 

Tiny sample sizes can stand for anything.

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Again, for all we know he only liked Baker and thought the other QBs sucked. Unlike Macc, Gettleman is willing to buck consensus if he believes in something. That's a good thing (if you get more right than wrong). So far, he isn't wrong.

That's fine. Then you trade down. You don't take a running back number 2 overall with a 2-14 roster. 

And Gettelman can buck all of the consensus he wants, but ultimately, he has to build a good roster. There is zero evidence that he has done anything close to that. He inherited one of the worst teams in the league and two years later has one of the worst teams in the league. 

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Can't imagine where that leaves us. Giants have won the Super Bowl more recently than we made the playoffs.

And?

The Giants won the Superbowl in February of 2012. That has nothing to do with Gettelman or the current regime for either the Jets or Giants. 

 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Tiny sample sizes can stand for anything.

It's approaching the sample size that won Barkley his legendary OROY award

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

That's fine. Then you trade down. You don't take a running back number 2 overall with a 2-14 roster. 

And Gettelman can buck all of the consensus he wants, but ultimately, he has to build a good roster. There is zero evidence that he has done anything close to that. He inherited one of the worst teams in the league and two years later has one of the worst teams in the league. 

We shall see, I suppose. Daniel Jones' rookie year is very similar to Darnold's by the way.