A bunch of Giants articles about Leonard Williams buyer’s remorse suspiciously published concurrently

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

It's approaching the sample size that won Barkley his legendary OROY award

By that analysis Jamal Adams sucks also. Look at Jets record the last 3 years.

Love how "football is a team sport" when defending Jets players on crap teams but it becomes "he hasn't moved the needle" when talking about other teams' players.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

And?

The Giants won the Superbowl in February of 2012. That has nothing to do with Gettelman or the current regime for either the Jets or Giants. 

 

Giants are having a bad year. They are not a bad franchise. That crown falls to us.

I have a helluva lot more faith in the Maras than the Johnsons to turn a bad team around. In this case, past performance does suggest future results.

[slimjasi]

Just now, jgb said:

We shall see, I suppose. Daniel Jones' rookie year is very similar to Darnold's by the way. 

I like Jones. (Although I suspect he could have been had at 17)

But Gettleman's roster is trash right now. That defense is an abomination and his defensive picks haven't had the impact that you would hope. Baker in particular has been surprisingly bad. 

Also, the Leo trade was LOLs bad. 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I like Jones. (Although I suspect he could have been had at 17)

But Gettleman's roster is trash right now. That defense is an abomination and his defensive picks haven't had the impact that you would hope. Baker in particular has been surprisingly bad. 

Also, the Leo trade was LOLs bad. 

After having just lived through the Idzik/Macc double tap it's very hard for me to mock the Giants for having Gettleman at the helm. If I knew any Giants fans here, I sure wouldn't pick that fight.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Giants are having a bad year. They are not a bad franchise. That crown falls to us.

I have a helluva lot more faith in the Maras than the Johnsons to turn a bad team around. In this case, past performance does suggest future results.

Again, you are caught up in the historical franchise stuff. It's not relevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about current affairs. Gettleman wasn't here in 2011. We are discussing his underwhelming performance as Giants GM. 

Oh and the Giants haven't had a bad season. They have had 7 out of 8 bad seasons. They are currently as bad as it gets. 

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

After having just lived through the Idzik/Macc double tap it's very hard for me to mock the Giants for having Gettleman at the helm. If I knew any Giants fans here, I sure wouldn't pick that fight.

Eh, things change. 

Giants fans have nothing to say to Jets fans right now without bringing up a super bowl 8 years ago. 

Since 2016, the Jets have a better overall record than the Giants and have beaten them straight up. You can lament the past as long as you want, but it doesn't change the reality that the Giants are hot garbage right now. 

[Philc1]

46 minutes ago, jgb said:

Giants are having a bad year. They are not a bad franchise. That crown falls to us.

I have a helluva lot more faith in the Maras than the Johnsons to turn a bad team around. In this case, past performance does suggest future results.

Giants have been a sh-tshow since their last playoff appearance 

 

That said they did get the Jones pick right

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, JTJet said:

You're the one comparing a 15 game season to someone's 8 game season, what sense does that make? Of course Quinnen would have better numbers the last year, he played 7 more games than Oliver lol. The only way to fairly compare their last year is to base off of an average/per game basis, so to make it simple, here is "actual per game" instead of adjusted for the whole season...

Q Williams

3 Tackles 1.73 Assist 4.73 Total 1.3 For Loss .56 Sacks .06 Pass Deflects 

E Oliver 

3.66 Tackles 3.13 Assist 6.8 Total 1.68 For Loss .33 Sacks .26 Pass Deflects .13 Forced Fumbles 

If Ed Oliver played 15 games his last year like Q, he would have crushed him. Funny thing is I dont care for either player, and was a Josh Allen guy. The only reason i got in the debate was to show that from a numbers standpoint, saying Q had a better college resume was flat out incorrect. 

Last season, 3 sacks to 8.  I don't care how you try to "adjust" their numbers.  QW was the better player.  

Would have, could have, blah, blah, blah. 

A whole lot of projecting from the guy who's numbers were clearly and utterly incomparable.  

Q was the unchallenged better player.  You can dream about his adjusted numbers but that just another way of saying he doesn't match up

Its over, we don't agree

[jgb]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Again, you are caught up in the historical franchise stuff. It's not relevant to the discussion at hand. We are talking about current affairs. Gettleman wasn't here in 2011. We are discussing his underwhelming performance as Giants GM. 

Oh and the Giants haven't had a bad season. They have had 7 out of 8 bad seasons. They are currently as bad as it gets. 

When you root for a team for 40 years and it's usually the same story, yes the history is important to me. It's great that you can compartmentalize and not let the obvious patterns concern you.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Giants have been a sh-tshow since their last playoff appearance 

 

That said they did get the Jones pick right

8 years since winning a Super Bowl. Yeah total s--tshow. ?

[jgb]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Eh, things change. 

Giants fans have nothing to say to Jets fans right now without bringing up a super bowl 8 years ago. 

Since 2016, the Jets have a better overall record than the Giants and have beaten them straight up. You can lament the past as long as you want, but it doesn't change the reality that the Giants are hot garbage right now. 

Reminds me of when Buffalo beat the Jets many years ago in the playoffs. My uncle is a Bills fan. My brother said "yeah but we beat you twice in the regular season!" My uncle said, "hey kid, we beat you in the playoffs." 

Jets fans should avoid wiener measuring contests with Giants fans.

And regarding your comment "things change"--I have less than zero faith in the Johnsons. Bill Belichick got that one dead right.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That was why I mentioned it. Not exactly apples to apples in terms of ease of him or QW getting to the QB if the latter was lining up in gaps. Particularly when others around him also commanded serious attention. 

That doesn't therrfore make QW a big zero; just that their respective opportunities seem to have been decidedly unequal. 

But he wasn't lining up in gaps. Williams played nose tackle at Alabama. That's why his pass rush was so highly regarded. And again I was banging on the table for Oliver before the draft so nobody needs to sell me on him.

[JTJet]

12 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Last season, 3 sacks to 8.  I don't care how you try to "adjust" their numbers.  QW was the better player.  

Would have, could have, blah, blah, blah. 

A whole lot of projecting from the guy who's numbers were clearly and utterly incomparable.  

Q was the unchallenged better player.  You can dream about his adjusted numbers but that just another way of saying he doesn't match up

Its over, we don't agree

Theres no hope for you, 8 sacks in 15 games for Q. 

...Oliver only played 8 games. 

I dont know what else to tell you. Stats dont lie nor does math. Oliver had the better college career. 

[FidelioJet]

Giants have been a sh-tshow since their last playoff appearance 
 
That said they did get the Jones pick right

Sam is easily the better player. They didn’t get the Jones pick right.



Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

24:25:31

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, JTJet said:

Theres no hope for you, 8 sacks in 15 games for Q. 

...Oliver only played 8 games. 

I dont know what else to tell you. Stats dont lie nor does math. Oliver had the better college career. 

And one more time, better numbers over a season.  You’re not making a case that he had better numbers that weren’t comparable.  You’re projecting shlt that didn’t happen anywhere other than in your head.  Not debatable, you’re guessing.  

No one Thought he was the better lineman

[JTJet]

53 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And one more time, better numbers over a season.  You’re not making a case that he had better numbers that weren’t comparable.  You’re projecting shlt that didn’t happen anywhere other than in your head.  Not debatable, you’re guessing.  

No one Thought he was the better lineman

He played 2x as many games as Oliver their final season. I've given you numbers right off their stat sheets that you refuse to look at because you know fully well it proves you're wrong. Dont get mad at me because I know how to do math and you dont know how to read. 

Per game production over their college careers. Oliver smoked Q and it's not close. This isnt my opinion, its recorded fact. Maybe stop trying to be right, and go back and actually view their stats, it will save you a ton of time. 

Do you believe the Earth isnt round too? Or do the facts not fit your opinion? 

[isired]

It's really pointless to compare Oliver's stats at Houston vs Rice, East Carolina, etc. with Q's Alabama opponents.

[JTJet]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

And one more time, better numbers over a season.  You’re not making a case that he had better numbers that weren’t comparable.  You’re projecting shlt that didn’t happen anywhere other than in your head.  Not debatable, you’re guessing.  

No one Thought he was the better lineman

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

Go ahead and add 3 more games on to Qs stat line, still wouldnt come close. 

[isired]

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

Go ahead and add 3 more games on to Qs stat line, still wouldnt come close. 

How about we let Q play Rice, UTSA, Texas Southern, Tulsa, East Carolina, Navy, SMU, Temple, Tulane, Army, etc., etc., etc.

[RobR]

9 minutes ago, isired said:

It's really pointless to compare Oliver's stats at Houston vs Rice, East Carolina, etc. with Q's Alabama opponents.

You're right. Q was playing on a juggernaut of a team that always had the lead until their last game. Oliver was the focal point for their opponents and routinely got double and triple teamed and still thrived.

Or you could just compare how both have been playing this year since we play the same schedule as the Bills.

[RobR]

6 minutes ago, isired said:

10 minutes ago, JTJet said:

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

Go ahead and add 3 more games on to Qs stat line, still wouldnt come close. 

How about we let Q play Rice, UTSA, Texas Southern, Tulsa, East Carolina, Navy, SMU, Temple, Tulane, Army, etc., etc., etc.

Or we could let Oliver play on that Bama team.

[isired]

Or we could let Oliver play on that Bama team.

You can't do either. That's why it's pointless to compare. One played in the majors, the other in triple A.

 

Oliver is having the better pro career right now, that can't be disputed.

 

[RobR]

Just now, isired said:

3 minutes ago, RobR said:

Or we could let Oliver play on that Bama team.

You can't do either. That's why it's pointless to compare. One played in the majors, the other in triple A

But we can compare them now at the NFL level. Unfortunately for the Jets it isn't close when it comes to production..

[JTJet]

4 minutes ago, isired said:

9 minutes ago, JTJet said:

Williams - 29 Game career 

91 Total Tackles (56 Solo/26 For Loss) - 10 Sacks - 1 Pass defense 

Oliver - 32 Game career 

163 Total Tackles (122 Solo/53 For Loss) - 13.5 Sacks - 11 Pass defense - 5 Forced Fumbles - 1 Fumble Recover

Go ahead and add 3 more games on to Qs stat line, still wouldnt come close. 

How about we let Q play Rice, UTSA, Texas Southern, Tulsa, East Carolina, Navy, SMU, Temple, Tulane, Army, etc., etc., etc.

Cant have it both ways. JetNut wants to go off of numbers from just their last seasons where one player played 15 games, the other 8, but doesn't want to account for any of their other college games. 

My entire point early on, and I said it 100x, from an actual production standpoint, Oliver had the better college career. This isnt up for debate, the numbers are what they are, they are recorded in history. 

Now, if we want to get into a separate debate about the level of competition, or level of their surrounding teammates, that's a separate argument for another day. But conflating the two arguments is dumb. 

[isired]

But we can compare them now at the NFL level. Unfortunately for the Jets it isn't close when it comes to production..

Yeah I added that to my post above. But you can't make your draft picks after they've played a year. And I'm still not sure Q won't be the better player after he matures a year or two.

[isired]

Cant have it both ways. JetNut wants to go off of numbers from just their last seasons where one player played 15 games, the other 8, but doesn't want to account for any of their other college games. 
My entire point early on, and I said it 100x, from an actual production standpoint, Oliver had the better college career. This isnt up for debate, the numbers are what they are, they are recorded in history. 
Now, if we want to get into a separate debate about the level of competition, or level of their surrounding teammates, that's a separate argument for another day. But conflating the two arguments is dumb. 

My only point is, it was consensus Q over Oliver, so you can't say that in April of 2019 it was a ridiculous pick.

Otherwise lets go back and take Marino.

[isired]

You're right. Q was playing on a juggernaut of a team that always had the lead until their last game. Oliver was the focal point for their opponents and routinely got double and triple teamed and still thrived.
Or you could just compare how both have been playing this year since we play the same schedule as the Bills.

Oliver is having the better pro career right now, that can't be disputed.
 

.

[RobR]

4 minutes ago, isired said:

And I'm still not sure Q won't be the better player after he matures a year or two.

I love this line of thinking especially when they are about one week apart when it comes too age.

Q will get better but Oliver won't as he matures? 

[JTJet]

4 minutes ago, isired said:

My only point is, it was consensus Q over Oliver, so you can't say that in April of 2019 it was a ridiculous pick.

Otherwise lets go back and take Marino.

But he wasnt the consensus, even in this forum he wasnt the consensus. Maybe just based off of Kiper and McShay, but up until draft day, there were still people thinking we would go Oliver. 

I think the majority of people on this board actually were not happy with the pick and most thought it was ridiculous because we already had Leo. 

[isired]

Consensus of 97 mocks. Q 3 or 4. Oliver not 1st in aggregate in the 1st round.

https://www.sbnation.com/a/nfl-offseason-free-agency-draft-2019/mock-draft

 

 

Consensus of 9 popular mocks. Q at 4 (Josh Allen to us at 3). Oliver and Devin White tied at 6.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/2019-nfl-mock-draft-consensus-first-round-2019-4

 

 

Draft Machine (runs 50 samples with aggregate data) - Q at 3 to Jets, Oliver at 9 to Bill's.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/2019-nfl-mock-draft--consensus-simulator

 

Feel free to look for an aggregator that finds Oliver ahead of Q.

 

 

[JTJet]

18 minutes ago, isired said:

Consensus of 97 mocks. Q 3 or 4. Oliver not 1st in aggregate in the 1st round.

https://www.sbnation.com/a/nfl-offseason-free-agency-draft-2019/mock-draft

 

 

Consensus of 9 popular mocks. Q at 4 (Josh Allen to us at 3). Oliver and Devin White tied at 6.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/2019-nfl-mock-draft-consensus-first-round-2019-4

 

 

Draft Machine (runs 50 samples with aggregate data) - Q at 3 to Jets, Oliver at 9 to Bill's.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/2019-nfl-mock-draft--consensus-simulator

 

Feel free to look for an aggregator that finds Oliver ahead of Q.

 

 

I will concede the point, but only for mock drafts. This forum was predominantly filled with people that wanted someone other than Q. 

And this still doesnt change the fact Oliver had the better college career, and Qs draft position was based off of potential. 

[isired]

I will concede the point, but only for mock drafts. This forum was predominantly filled with people that wanted someone other than Q. 
And this still doesnt change the fact Oliver had the better college career, and Qs draft position was based off of potential. 

My point was just that, for those making like it was a no brainers, that's ridiculous. Q was ahead of Oliver with the 'experts' - and when you take them in aggregate, they're surprisingly accurate.

And you really can't compare college careers. There's probably a DE at Holy Cross that had a better career than Oliver. And another at Ithaca College.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

6 hours ago, jgb said:

Love how "football is a team sport" when defending Jets players on crap teams but it becomes "he hasn't moved the needle" when talking about other teams' players.

I love how football is a team sport when defending the quarterback but defensive tackles play in a vacuum.

[RobR]

9 minutes ago, isired said:

And you really can't compare college careers. There's probably a DE at Holy Cross that had a better career than Oliver. And another at Ithaca College.

Now you're just being silly. Oliver was a 3x All American and won the Outland trophy. During his college career he was considered the possible first overall pick in the draft then he got hurt and missed a few games during the season when he entered the draft and was still good enough to go top 10.   

It's quite apparent you've never seen him play at the collegiate level. 

[isired]

Now you're just being silly. Oliver was a 3x All American and won the Outland trophy. During his college career he was considered the possible first overall pick in the draft then he got hurt and missed a few games during the season when he entered the draft and was still good enough to go top 10.   
It's quite apparent you've never seen him play at the collegiate level. 

You didn't see the guy from Ithaca. Guy was mind-boggling.