PFF on Quinnen Williams

[PS17]

27 minutes ago, Jetscode1 said:

In other news the Jets are 4-8.  Haven't sniffed the playoffs in a decade and doubtful to return any time soon.  Thanks for the info.  JN is lost without you.  

ya happy now, bitch?

[Jet Nut]

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[Jet Nut]

20 hours ago, jgb said:

“Safest pick in the draft” will be on Macc’s tombstone. He drafted not to lose, rather than to win.

 Top players should be passed on for different players

Lesser rated players

Makes sense.  Nowhere 

Bosa was a safe pick.  His brother was a safe pick.  Who's not a safe pick at 3?  Josh Allen?  Who?

What kind of sense does this make?

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

 Top players should be passed on for different players

Lesser rated players

Makes sense.  Nowhere 

Bosa was a safe pick.  His brother was a safe pick.  Who's not a safe pick at 3?  Josh Allen?  Who?

What kind of sense does this make?

1. Impact versus non impact positions 

2. If a GM just follows consensus rankings what are we paying him for? A GM needs to be confident and bold and apply that to the specific situation the team is in. Straight BAP lacks courage and accountability. It’s the loser’s road.

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

1. Impact versus non impact positions 

2. If a GM just follows consensus rankings what are we paying him for? A GM needs to be confident and bold and apply that to the specific situation the team is in. Straight BAP lacks courage and accountability. It’s the loser’s road.

1- What you believe is impact vs non impact position.  We go on and on about the next this or that, dream of the next A Donald and no one says, F it, Donald plays a non impact position.  Only here.  No one said, QW's good but, non impact position.  I can go on and on and on naming all the dominant DTs who are in the HOF or who dominated, effected games.

2- You have it backwards.  A GM rates a player high and because he's also the concensould pick, we should take him?  Do you get how ridiculous that sounds?  You don't think a GM should take the highest rated position player in the draft because you thin that lacks courage and accountability?  What does that even mean?  Accountability translated better to taking a risk and drafting a lesser ranked player?  Why and how does that make sense?  Or take courage?  If you like someone better you take him.  You have no idea that he didn't, right or wrong

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

1- What you believe is impact vs non impact position.  We go on and on about the next this or that, dream of the next A Donald and no one says, F it, Donald plays a non impact position.  

2- You have it backwards.  A GM rates a player high and because he's also the concensould pick, we should take him?  Do you get how ridiculous that sounds?  You don't think a GM should take the highest rated position player in the draft because you thin that lacks courage and accountability?  What does that even mean?  Accountability translated better to taking a risk and drafting a lesser ranked player?  Why and how does that make sense?  Or take courage?  If you like someone better you take him.  You have no idea that he didn't, right or wrong

1 not non-ball hawking safeties or run stuffing DLman. Riddle me this why do you think these guys fell in the draft in the first place if they’re “the best players in the draft?”

2. You are summing up my position accurately. A monkey with Mel Kiper’s big board would have drafted exactly the same as Macc’s first rounds. Macc was drafting to avoid criticism. He was a milquetoast.

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, jgb said:

1 not non-ball hawking safeties or run stuffing DLman. Riddle me this why do you think these guys fell in the draft in the first place if they’re “the best players in the draft?”

2. You are summing up my position accurately. A monkey with Mel Kiper’s big board would have drafted exactly the same as Macc’s first rounds. Macc was drafting to avoid criticism. He was a milquetoast.

1. Thats not what QW was in college.  8 or whatever sacks and was a force for Alabama.  Adams was an all everything S and is as a pro.  Don't get the argument over Adams, QW is 11 games into his career and some think they know what he will be.  Will suck if he doesn't develop but people need to get off the ledge.  

2. No you have it backwards.  Head into a draft and there are 5 top players who get talked up.  Why?  Because they're the best players.  But because the majority of these players, all players, dont become what they're predicted to become we shouldn't draft them?  That doesn't make sense, taking a player that isn't as highly rated doesnt make more sense, doesn't make you more accountable, takes more courage, unless there is someone there you like for that spot.  If Macc or whoever, liked a different player at 3 but went with the highest rated player that's different but we don't know that.  Most people have a player like QW rated at the top, we're picking at the top, he's there, there's a good chance he's getting picked.  Its not an indictment on anyone

[Losmeister]

9 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Facts are stubborn things but they got nothing on Jets fans.

its bizarre. so, facts are anti-jets. the jets are , light? and facts ? dark matter?

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:20 PM, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

DI Quinnen Williams, New York Jets

This may be the most surprising rookie performance of the 2019 season. After recording the highest single-season grade of any defensive player we have graded in the PFF College era at 96.0, Quinnen Williams was getting a lot of attention and was even being considered by some to be a better prospect than the second overall pick Nick Bosa. Williams ended up going third overall to the New York Jets and everyone thought they got the safest pick in the Draft. Thus far in 2019, that’s not even remotely close to being the case.

Williams has produced an overall grade of 67.4, ranking 46th among 76 interior defensive linemen. He has made a few plays in run defense and made his way to the 37th best run-defense grade at 70.5. However, Williams’ run-defense isn’t the issue – it’s his pass-rushing. Williams drops all the way down to 60th in PFF pass-rush grade at 57.2, has produced pressure at an astronomically low rate of 4.7% and has won on just 7.3% of his reps. 

Injury had gotten to Williams early on, but he’s been healthy as of late and has still made little to no impact plays. There’s more optimism with Williams than any other rookie in PFF’s stock down report, but his play thus far is certainly cause for concern.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-stock-up-stock-down-nfl-rookies-week-13-2019

 

 

@Pac

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:36 PM, Bleedin Green said:

The pick was mind-numbingly stupid from the moment it was made.  There's nowhere near the positional value to justify #3 overall, and worse yet was the fifth repetition of the same idiotic failure.  I've been rooting for Quinnen to be great, because he's here now no matter what I thought initially, but it was excessively unlikely he would ever be able to justify the pick.  Now, at this point, he just needs to prove himself to be any more than a complete JAG.  Giving Maccagnan another draft cemented CJ as the unquestionably dumber of the Johnsons, which is no easy task.

 

@Pac

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:50 PM, Anthony Jet said:

Q has been a disappointment to say the least , that being said Football is the hardest of the sports to judge based on stats. There are just WAY to many variables as compared to say baseball or even basketball. Not that I think Q has been good, just sayin you don’t need PFF to tell you he’s been bad 

When it comes to pass rushers, there's criteria that help predict future success, and that's summed up in one word:  Athleticism.

Leo was in the 47th percentile in important metrics entering the 2015 draft, per SPARQ.  And that's what we got:  An unathletic run-stopper.  

Q was in the 86th percentile, so there's SOME hope there.  But Ed Oliver was in the 99th percentile, with numbers rivaling Aaron Donald.  If we just HAD to go with a DT, we picked the wrong one at 3.  Ultimately, trading down and/or taking Josh Allen was the right move to make.  

No matter what a DT does well, you don't take one in the top 10 if he can't rush the passer.  Q needs to prove he can or this will be another awful draft pick.  

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/2/2019 at 12:42 AM, Beerfish said:

"It was no secret that the New York Jets were fielding calls and open for business ahead of the NFL's trade deadline Tuesday. But one player they weren't willing to deal was 2019 first-round defensive tackle Quinnen Williams despite receiving serious interest from a mystery team.

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter: 

"At least one team kept coming at the Jets, refusing to take no for an answer and offering a blockbuster package of picks that it thought New York could not turn down, according to sources. But no matter how many times that team and others called, New York refused to budge on Williams.""

 

Why weren't those teams calling on draft day when they had a chance to move up?  Reports suggested offers to move up to 3 were underwhelming at the time.  Though that could have just been spin control from the Jets' camp.  

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/2/2019 at 2:42 AM, Jetsfan4life90 said:

Not that I'm giving up on QW this early, but if that's actually true, how in the world do you turn that down??

The only justification would be the cap implications.  Trading him this season would have led to a dead cap hit of nearly $22M per overthecap.com.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

kid got a check for $20 million and never needs to play football again

[Jetsfan80]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:12 AM, jgb said:

“Safest pick in the draft” will be on Macc’s tombstone. He drafted not to lose, rather than to win.

And still lost anyways, to the tune of a 24-40 record and 0 playoff appearances during his tenure.  I believe that only the Browns were worse from 2015-18. 

Yet there are still people out there who defend him or suggest he was better than history suggests he was.  

[ZachEY]

14 hours ago, phill1c said:

Pass rush from an interior lineman? That's what everyone's panties are in a bunch about?!

This is the stupidest notion in the world.

And then there's the lies "I never saw him double teamed..." oh please!! every 3-4 interior lineman is double-teamed frequently. Four or three against five, it's simple math.

Finally, there's the notion that there is a No. 1 draft pick market for Quinnen Williams. Who? Name ONE team that would now or would have in the past given the Jets a No. 1 pick for Quinnen Williams. You can't. Not because of PFF, but because people aren't spending No. 1 draft picks on other team's [presumably bust] No. 1 rookie draft picks. What sense does that even make? Another team is supposed to be open to over spending on a proven (by your measure) bust? It's pure lunacy, no matter often it's repeated.

Pro QW Rant over...

If not to get interior pass rush, why did we draft QW?  To be stout in the run game?  If that's the case, it's an even worse pick than I'd already thought.

Also, if the Pro QW rant is basically that we shouldn't expect pass rush, that he gets double teamed, and that no one would trade for him, that's about the weakest pro player rant I've heard.

13 hours ago, phill1c said:

Again, who is this team? Can you point to any such transaction recently?

"...he looks to all the world..."

Not to me. He looks like a rookie DT in a 3-4. But, you know, I'm willing to give a guy more than 12 games to prove his worth.

It takes more than one guy on any DL to make an impact. Have you ever thought that Leo was undermined by not playing at one position during his formative years and by the flux in systems and roles? Geez, the guy fetched a nice load for such a "bum" as you refer to him. And who knows how good either Williams would be on, say Jacksonville, or the Ravens.

The problem with Williams was more player development than lack of talent, something MOST Jets players suffer from.

He gets more than 12 games, sure, but he's not even flashed why he was picked that high.

Meanwhile, every top 10 defender, even the wildly overdrafted Clelin Ferrell has produced at a higher level than Williams.

Why do the Jets always get the wait and see guy, while Nick Bosa, Josh Allen, and Ed Oliver have already justified their draft spot.

[ZachEY]

7 hours ago, Jetscode1 said:

In other news the Jets are 4-8.  Haven't sniffed the playoffs in a decade and doubtful to return any time soon.  Thanks for the info.  JN is lost without you.  

Could you please provide a list of approved topics? It seems criticism of the non-existent #3 overall pick from this year is added to the list of banned topics, along with criticism of the under-performing #3 overall pick from last year.

[Jetsfan80]

14 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I don’t even care that Ed Oliver is playing better because he would have been the wrong pick as well. YOU DON’T DRAFT RUN STUFFING DTs WITH PREMIUM DRAFT CAPITAL IN A 3-4. This is especially true after weakening and neglecting other areas of the roster over the last decade.

Oliver is a pure pass rusher.  He would have been a very justifiable pick to play the 3-4 DE spot.  Especially if we traded down then took him.  

[Jetsfan80]

14 hours ago, phill1c said:

Pass rush from an interior lineman? That's what everyone's panties are in a bunch about?!

Yes.  You don't draft an interior DL who can't rush the passer in the 1st round, let alone # 3 overall.  You can find run-stuffers anywhere, including the UDFA pool. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Could you please provide a list of approved topics? It seems criticism of the non-existent #3 overall pick from this year is added to the list of banned topics, along with criticism of the under-performing #3 overall pick from last year.

We're also banned from even the suggestion we should trade Jamal Adams.  Old man JC gave me a nice lecture about that one the other day.  

[ZachEY]

6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

1- What you believe is impact vs non impact position.  We go on and on about the next this or that, dream of the next A Donald and no one says, F it, Donald plays a non impact position.  Only here.  No one said, QW's good but, non impact position.  I can go on and on and on naming all the dominant DTs who are in the HOF or who dominated, effected games.

If you can get the next Aaron Donald, great.  We didn't, and there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe we would.  In fact, we left the guy who may have had a chance to be the next Aaron Donald on the board for the bills to take.

[Creepy Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Oliver is a pure pass rusher.  He would have been a very justifiable pick to play the 3-4 DE spot.  Especially if we traded down then took him.  

He’s still a DT in a 3-4. We already played that card too many times and created holes in many more important positions on the roster. I don’t care if he’s a better rusher than Q, it’s still the wrong pick based on our roster situation. I agree it would have been better but it still would have been the wrong pick. You don’t need pass rushing DL in a 3-4. That’s for the linebackers.

Josh Allen was the pick since there were apparently no trade down options(which I highly doubt since Mac was a failure at trading down in the 1st when we needed to do it every year besides 2018). 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

He’s still a DT in a 3-4. We already played that card too many times and created holes in many more important positions on the roster. I don’t care if he’s a better rusher than Q, it’s still the wrong pick based on our roster situation. I agree it would have been better but it still would have been the wrong pick. You don’t need pass rushing DL in a 3-4. That’s for the linebackers.

JJ Watt says hello.

No, DT's aren't supposed to be your primary pass rushers in a 3-4.  But no one complains if they find one of those, because they're exceedingly rare and very valuable.

[ZachEY]

58 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

1. Thats not what QW was in college.  8 or whatever sacks and was a force for Alabama.

2.5 sacks against Louisiana State.

3.5 sacks combined against Arkansas State, Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Citadel.

1 sack against a ranked opponent (Georgia).

0 sacks, 1.5 TFL, combined, in the Orange Bowl and NCAA Championship.

Big Macc blew it again.  Why would anyone be surprised?

[Creepy Lurker]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

JJ Watt says hello.

No, DT's aren't supposed to be your primary pass rushers in a 3-4.  But no one complains if they find one of those, because they're exceedingly rare and very valuable.

They are actually amazing when you find one like JJ Watt or Aaron Donald. But why swing for the fences for this rare event to happen when you can just fill premium positions that happen to be a glaring need? We literally just missed on Wilkerson, Coples, Sheldumb, Leo and we try again?

Sorry, a failure of a organization doesn’t get to make the same massive mistake AGAIN for a 5th time in 9 years. Half of our 1st round picks in that time span (we had 2 picks in 2013), where many were top 10 picks, were wasted on this exact situation where you only make out if you find this unicorn of a pass rushing DT. That is POOR roster building at its finest. 

[sec101row23]

Obviously the final book isn’t written on Quinnen yet.  BUT at some point during the rookie season a player should give you signs as to why he will be successful in the future, especially one drafted 3rd overall.  No one is expecting him to be Aaron Donald, but there should be glimpses into what kind of player he can be at this point.  Look at the players selected in the top 10 of his draft class, all have shown something this year to make you feel like they can live up to their draft selection.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Creepy Lurker said:

They are actually amazing when you find one like JJ Watt or Aaron Donald. But why swing for the fences for this rare event to happen when you can just fill premium positions that happen to be a glaring need? We literally just missed on Wilkerson, Coples, Sheldumb, Leo and we try again?

None of those prospects came close to Oliver when it comes to athleticism.  A swing for the fences would have been a nice change from the types of picks we made the previous 4 years.  

[Untouchable]

Just now, sec101row23 said:

Obviously the final book isn’t written on Quinnen yet.  BUT at some point during the rookie season a player should give you signs as to why he will be successful in the future, especially one drafted 3rd overall.  No one is expecting him to be Aaron Donald, but there should be glimpses into what kind of player he can be at this point.  Look at the players selected in the top 10 of his draft class, all have shown something this year to make you feel like they can live up to their draft selection.  

Yep

I never thought he would be Donald, but I believed he could become a Fletcher Cox/Gerald McCoy type.

But I’m starting to lose faith that he’ll ever even achieve that.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

1. Thats not what QW was in college.  8 or whatever sacks and was a force for Alabama.  Adams was an all everything S and is as a pro.  Don't get the argument over Adams, QW is 11 games into his career and some think they know what he will be.  Will suck if he doesn't develop but people need to get off the ledge.  

2. No you have it backwards.  Head into a draft and there are 5 top players who get talked up.  Why?  Because they're the best players.  But because the majority of these players, all players, dont become what they're predicted to become we shouldn't draft them?  That doesn't make sense, taking a player that isn't as highly rated doesnt make more sense, doesn't make you more accountable, takes more courage, unless there is someone there you like for that spot.  If Macc or whoever, liked a different player at 3 but went with the highest rated player that's different but we don't know that.  Most people have a player like QW rated at the top, we're picking at the top, he's there, there's a good chance he's getting picked.  Its not an indictment on anyone

Totally get your point. I like Jamal. He is a good player. Just hope our new GM has the guts to go against consensus if it’s best for the team regardless of personal risk.

Too soon to “give up” on QW. Just don’t think it was the right choice given where we were/are as a team. However he’s a Jet now so I support him.

[Jet Nut]

50 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

If you can get the next Aaron Donald, great.  We didn't, and there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe we would.  In fact, we left the guy who may have had a chance to be the next Aaron Donald on the board for the bills to take.

8 or nine sacks against the schedule at Alabama, you were supposed to be getting a well rounded DT.  Time will tell but he was highly thought of and rated by all.  

The real reach is the love for Oliver and the constant talk by fans here that he could be the next Donald.  As if anything in his college career screams Aaron Donald.  Other than their builds or whatever fans think makes them similar.  

I would have taken J Allen, that was the guy I wanted, thought that pass rushing skills translate better to the NFL when its speed based.

[Jet Nut]

46 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

2.5 sacks against Louisiana State.

3.5 sacks combined against Arkansas State, Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi State, and Citadel.

1 sack against a ranked opponent (Georgia).

0 sacks, 1.5 TFL, combined, in the Orange Bowl and NCAA Championship.

Big Macc blew it again.  Why would anyone be surprised?

Amazing how a deep dive can spin things to fit the argument. 

You really want to make the case that he wasn't good in college?

How many, me included, wanted Allen?  Never read the breakdown of where his sacks came from.  

How about Oliver, how did those 3 sacks break down against which teams?  

[ZachEY]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

8 or nine sacks against the schedule at Alabama, you were supposed to be getting a well rounded DT.  Time will tell but he was highly thought of and rated by all.  

 The real reach is the love for Oliver and the constant talk by fans here that he could be the next Donald.  As if anything in his college career screams Aaron Donald.  Other than their builds or whatever fans think makes them similar.  

 I would have taken J Allen, that was the guy I wanted, thought that pass rushing skills translate better to the NFL when its speed based.

Oliver had a better Thanksgiving than QW has had an NFL career, so it's hard to understand how anyone can, today, make the argument that it was a reach to say Oliver may be the next great DT.

Allen would have been a good pick too.  Not only is there better positional value, but he was, and still is, a need.  A need, in fact, that we've had since trading John Abraham, which, as you know, was a really, really long time ago.

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Totally get your point. I like Jamal. He is a good player. Just hope our new GM has the guts to go against consensus if it’s best for the team regardless of personal risk.

Too soon to “give up” on QW. Just don’t think it was the right choice given where we were/are as a team. However he’s a Jet now so I support him.

I think we can agree with this.  

As for QW I agree too soon to scream like a few, one, here who keeps repeating that he needed to be traded of 20 cent on a dollar.  Just because.  I wanted J Allen because I thought Edge was a bigger need and could effect the outcomes of games.  We'll see.  I may have wanted Allen but I get why he took QW at the same time.  Just because I wanted someone else I'm not going to make it into a one or the other case.  Allen can be good while QW can be at the same time.  Hope, its not a science

I hope JD is more in tune to what we need and gets this team moving forward instead of spinning its wheels.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Amazing how a deep dive can spin things to fit the argument. 

You really want to make the case that he wasn't good in college?

How many, me included, wanted Allen?  Never read the breakdown of where his sacks came from.  

How about Oliver, how did those 3 sacks break down against which teams?  

Neither Q or Oliver should have been considered at 3. both would have been the wrong pick.

Josh Allen was the way to go.

[ZachEY]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Amazing how a deep dive can spin things to fit the argument. 

You really want to make the case that he wasn't good in college?

How many, me included, wanted Allen?  Never read the breakdown of where his sacks came from.  

How about Oliver, how did those 3 sacks break down against which teams?  

It's not spin.  He disappeared against top opponents, and did well against the cupcakes.  I'm not making the case that he "wasn't good in college."  That would be a reach, and a conclusion you're drawing from my post, not one I presented.

There were in fact concerns that Allen feasted on weaker opponents, however, his performance against PSU at least balanced that out.  But, Allen also played for Kentucky, not a fringe NFL team at the college level.  He also didn't register a sack in only 3 games last year.

Oliver's production came while playing out of position at Houston, they had him as a NT.  And he posted athletic numbers that were so insanely eye-popping you had to take notice.