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THE BARON

Interesting Observation On Darnold... I think

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20 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I think if everyone here would be honest, they’d all admit to being shocked at us winning one of the remaining 3 games. Let’s be optimistic though, and give us one more win. That makes us 6-10, and when combined with last years 4-12, we would be a combined 10-22 since that trade.

Now we all know about the OL problem here, a lot of teams are in the same situation. Even if Douglas spends two, or even three high picks on the OL, they will be young, unproven and at best need years to develop as a unit, all while trying to integrate 3 or 4 other pieces.

Nobody here I can think of has said Darnold is a bust, some think he will become a star. I think some, myself included, feel he isn’t going to be the game changer we had hoped. He has flaws, but does things well also. I see him as a guy who can be somewhere between top 11-17 in the league for 10 years or more if he has everything in place around him and gets the proper coaching.

So where does that leave us heading into next year? 

We’ll have a tougher schedule, our roster will be overhauled, but still a ways from being competitive. The unproven QB will be in his third year. It’s very fair to argue that we’d have been better off not making the trade, and trying to build up the roster with those four very premium picks considering what’s transpired since it happened, and what we are looking to in the next few years.

I think the trade made sense at the time and still does.  Yes I agree we don’t know what Sam will be.  Until we can get better protection and talent around him it’s impossible to make a determination one way or the other 

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17 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

I think the trade made sense at the time and still does.  Yes I agree we don’t know what Sam will be.  Until we can get better protection and talent around him it’s impossible to make a determination one way or the other 

Yeah, I think it was worth a shot. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I was hoping for more from him. Maybe I’m being unfair, but I’m being honest.

Your last sentence echoes what I said, it’s going to be a few years before that all happens though.

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7 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Yeah, I think it was worth a shot. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I was hoping for more from him. Maybe I’m being unfair, but I’m being honest.

Your last sentence echoes what I said, it’s going to be a few years before that all happens though.

I know we disagree on Sam but I try to be fair.  There are things that he needs to clean up.  For example throwing off his back foot tends to turn into a pick.  That needs to stop.  Also I’ve noticed that sometimes he has the opportunity to use his legs to pick up a first down he throws it.  But the good thing is that he is young and those things are easily fixable.  He still has shown a lot of good things despite some injuries and not much talent around him.  I’ve never claimed he will be a star BUT I do really believe you can win with Sam once he gains more experience and gets better protection/support

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7 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Interesting observation on Darnold.  I *think*

I'm probably putting two and two together and getting five, but I have noticed what may be a trend regarding Darnold.

When protection is bad, Darnold's play degrades.  It is more than just bad passing.  His entire skill set vanishes.  Footwork becomes jumbled, throws off back foot, making bad decisions with the football... An over all loss of concentration.  

And...

When Gase throws the Peyton Manning "drop back pocket passer" play book at Darnold like we saw yesterday, I see a lot of the same thing.  Loss of concentration and focus leading to bad passes and lazy play...

This is starting to look a lot like Sam saying "f**k it" when things are not to his liking...

I could be reading into things of course, and I'm sure I will get a few butt-fumbles, but I think there is some substance to what I am saying...

Even when he has protection his footwork isn't the best.  Never has been.   He's no Aaron rogers but he throws from all sorts of weird positions all the time.

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No... Darnold would not be inclined to be Peyton Manning and audible to one of four plays that Manning ran with the Colts and with Gase.   That offense has four basic pass plays.  All from the pocket.  All based on timing and proficiency.  Darnold would  want to move the pocket and watch his targets progress.   Gase is trying to force an offense on Darnold that is un-natural to him.


Some talking heads were concerned with the Gase hire for this very reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

With this same roster, Herm Edwards, Al Groh, and Rex Ryan would be 1-8.  Adam Gase is 5-4.  That's beyond impressive.

SAR I

I think the coach we should be giving credit to is Greg Williams... He is the one who is running a until that is performing above and beyond the talent level and doing so week after week.  He is not running the defense he ran with Cleveland or the Saints.   He is running the best defense he can as related to what he has to work with.  Adam Gase needs to watch and learn, if possible... 

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

With this same roster, Herm Edwards, Al Groh, and Rex Ryan would be 1-8.  Adam Gase is 5-4.  That's beyond impressive.

SAR I

 

Edited by THE BARON
DUPLICATED

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

It certainly hasn't been good.

Per Pro Football Reference Advanced Passing statistics, Darnold is:

Tied for third lowest in "average time from snap to throw or pocket collapse", at 2.2 seconds.  To give frame of reference, the worst is 2.0 (2 players at that number, with three at 2.1) and 2.6 second being the highest in the NFL.  This is an interesting stat tho, as it can be misleading.  Drew Brees has the lowest amount of time (2.0) because he gets the ball out ultra-fast, not because he isn't protected.  Andy Dalton is also tied for 2.0, mostly because his O-line is also horrible.  

Darnold is 9th most at being hurried..  He is 16th most in being hit.  He is 14th most in being sacked.  All despite missing multiple games.  

No matter how we slice it, O-line must be a major priority this off-season.  I wish the Jets had listened to those of us who've been screaming about this for years now.  

You gotta factor in just how poorly the Wide receivers are doing in the separation department.

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11 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I think the coach we should be giving credit to is Greg Williams... He is the one who is running a until that is performing above and beyond the talent level and doing so week after week.  He is not running the defense he ran with Cleveland or the Saints.   He is running the best defense he can as related to what he has to work with.  Adam Gase needs to watch and learn, if possible... 

You're right. Amazing how NOBODY is talking about the Dolphins going to the red zone like a million times yesterday only to get field goals.

 

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Darnold is just fine, for a guy in his second year playing for a new coach and shi1ty OL. 

That said, his decision making is poor...and slow.

But anyone in his situation would be where he is. Because, yeah, it's easy until they scheme against you. Then, it's not so easy. 

I'm hopeful for Darnold to become the franchise qb the Jets paid for. And he seems headed in that general direction. He needs to start seeing things faster and better than he does now. But that should happen because he definitely has the arm talent.

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24 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

You gotta factor in just how poorly the Wide receivers are doing in the separation department.

Do I?

All I heard yesterday was than Anderson was a boss.  Carried the team.  Game thread was like an Anderson appreciation club.

And I know Crowder can (and does) get open.

So I don't know.

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3 hours ago, Awesumtenor said:

They were able to pressure Brady with 4 and drop 7 into coverage and on all of the shallow crossing routes every Pats receiver took hits and paid a price... that also messed up the timing of the NE offense to a degree. Anytime a NYG DL could hit Brady, they did.

That's how they beat them.

Thank you. Even one of the best QB to ever play the game (we can argue on that point if you prefer) looked like an ordinary QB when uNader pressure. 

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13 hours ago, Maxman said:

Check the rule book, 7.1.14:

A gift pass interference call may only occur on a play where there was no pass interference.

 

That wasn't a gift, it was the right call. Head of officiating said so himself, it was clearly PI.

different rule book?

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8 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Yeah, I think it was worth a shot. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I was hoping for more from him. Maybe I’m being unfair, but I’m being honest.

Your last sentence echoes what I said, it’s going to be a few years before that all happens though.

Ok you were "hoping for more".  That's not something that is remotely reasonable to ask for at present.  What is so bad about a 5-5 record playing with the weakest roster in the league, in his 2nd year, with 1 of the losses coming while he played with Mono and a Fever? In virtually EVERY loss recorded this year Darnold was buried under tacklers in under a second most of each game.  Tell me, which QB's in the NFL would have won those SAME games?  Start with the New England "Ghost" game.

You see the incredibly pedestrian game put up by Tom Brady yesterday against KC?...a loss, barely completed 50% of his passes.  Why?

Answer: because he took some heat and was hurried.

Darnold has faced heat multiples greater than what Brady faced yesterday....in virtually EVERY game he has started as a Pro.  Hell for 9 consecutive weeks in his rookie year he had a Center who couldn't even cleanly snap the ball to him half the time haha.  Wasn't until the announcers on TV laughed at the Sphinx Coach until something was done about it.

Darnold can't reasonably be evaluated until he gets at least 1/2 an OL that are professional football players.  I'm not saying Pro Bowlers either.  Just guys who at least 1 other team in the league would start without thinking about it.  Because for Darnold's entire short career he has not had 1 of those.

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21 hours ago, bitonti said:

Other teams blitz Darnold because he doesn't beat the blitz

and when he knows he s going to get hit he goes back foot. 

Look at General Fitz patrick step up into the fire yesteday. he knew he'd take a shot and ate it. Sam is like scared to get hit (*and don't tell me Miami has a better line, cause they don't) 

to be fair 14 actually showed some progress yesterday 

they were blitzing double CB and he didn't see it until the 2nd half 

eventually they paid for it 

but make no mistake, this game was a 19-18 loss if not for a gift PI from NY league office at the end 

the best thing about Sam Darnold is the league wants to market him desperately 

he farts in the right direction and makes player of the week 

we could say the same about Sanchez 

Gift PI? It wasn't a gift it was an obvious pass interference & only 1 of 8 overturned in 48 so far this year. 

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5 hours ago, Jetster said:

Gift PI? It wasn't a gift it was an obvious pass interference & only 1 of 8 overturned in 48 so far this year. 

exactly 

they never overturn this call all season 

now week 12 they start overturning these calls and even issuing flags

they are sending a message to the other coaches this is what to expect in the playoffs

either way YES an uncalled PI being reversed from the league office with 40 seconds left 4th and long is the dictionary definition of a gift

side note it's also kind of a sh*tty way to determine the outcome of a football game, for everyone involved 

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5 hours ago, Jetster said:

It wasn't a gift it was an obvious pass interference & only 1 of 8 overturned in 48 so far this year. 

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4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

After the Dolphins game Darnold sits at 30th in DVOA and 31st in DYAR.

No place to go but up. 

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19 hours ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

You gotta factor in just how poorly the Wide receivers are doing in the separation department.

This is why I like to throw Pennington and Sanchez into the debate.  Non-stop horrific collapsing pressure, receivers who almost never get any separation, no running game, still, even with Bell (close to end of 2nd year..play-Action isn’t even part of the playbook because it can’t be sold)....it really is debatable whether either of them could even have won a single game.....yet Darnold is supposed to win ALL of them, if not, he s*cks.

I wish the D had held up Opening Day with that 16-0 4th Qtr lead....Darnold’s W-L record would be 6-4 right now.

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21 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Yeah, I think it was worth a shot. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I was hoping for more from him. Maybe I’m being unfair, but I’m being honest.

Your last sentence echoes what I said, it’s going to be a few years before that all happens though.

He's 5-5 as a starter.   His completion % is up from last year, his yards per game is up 20+ from last year, his int % is down slightly from last year, all while his sacks per game is up, and, let's face it, he has very little talent around him.

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1 minute ago, chirorob said:

He's 5-5 as a starter.   His completion % is up from last year, his yards per game is up 20+ from last year, his int % is down slightly from last year, all while his sacks per game is up, and, let's face it, he has very little talent around him.

besides underthrowing robbie anderson every game, there are few bad throws and bad decisions.  

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6 minutes ago, chirorob said:

He's 5-5 as a starter.   His completion % is up from last year, his yards per game is up 20+ from last year, his int % is down slightly from last year, all while his sacks per game is up, and, let's face it, he has very little talent around him.

Good points. I think Gase has a lo t to do with those improved numbers also. It’s time to start giving him some credit...

Hes designed an offense that works to Darnold’s strengths, ie, lots of quick, short passes. That cuts down on the ints, builds his confidence, keeps the ball moving forward with the limited talent on the OL.

Gase has been terrific this year.

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20 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

After the Dolphins game Darnold sits at 30th in DVOA and 31st in DYAR.

Both of those stats say Dak is a good QB so they have absolutely no merit. It is only the unbiased beady green eyes of the true Jets fan that can accurately grade Darnold vs his peers

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3 minutes ago, CTM said:

Both of those stats say Dak is a good QB so they have absolutely no merit. It is only the unbiased beady green eyes of the true Jets fan that can accurately grade Darnold vs his peers

Well what will be telling is what Joe Douglas does. I have seen posts saying the Jets should keep an eye open for a new QB. And that Joe Douglas should take one in the first three rounds next year.

I believe Joe Douglas and Adam Gase will end this year knowing that Darnold needs to improve, but having no doubt that he is the future. 

I would be really surprised if the Jets take a QB early in the draft next year. They are convinced he is the guy and won't waste a pick that could be used building around him. My 2 cents...

 

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8 minutes ago, CTM said:

Both of those stats say Dak is a good QB so they have absolutely no merit. It is only the unbiased beady green eyes of the true Jets fan that can accurately grade Darnold vs his peers

Dak being better than Sam doesn’t make him worth the money he wants. 

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The idea that Darnolds processor is slow is laughable. Jets have been measured as giving the QB the least time to throw of any team in the NFL. If Darnolds processor was slow we’d be seeing Luke Falk type offensive performances. Our WR get no separation and Darnold is forced to go through more reads than any QB I watch on a weekly basis. 

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6 minutes ago, nico002 said:

The idea that Darnolds processor is slow is laughable. Jets have been measured as giving the QB the least time to throw of any team in the NFL. If Darnolds processor was slow we’d be seeing Luke Falk type offensive performances. Our WR get no separation and Darnold is forced to go through more reads than any QB I watch on a weekly basis. 

You don’t have to convince us, nico.

We all agree with you, except for maybe that @The Crusher guy. I heard he’s been a bit of a problem around here lately.

Maybe it’s something with his processor.

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11 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Well what will be telling is what Joe Douglas does. I have seen posts saying the Jets should keep an eye open for a new QB. And that Joe Douglas should take one in the first three rounds next year.

I believe Joe Douglas and Adam Gase will end this year knowing that Darnold needs to improve, but having no doubt that he is the future. 

I would be really surprised if the Jets take a QB early in the draft next year. They are convinced he is the guy and won't waste a pick that could be used building around him. My 2 cents...

 

My opinion. Ownership is all in on Darnold. If Gase isnt they'll find someone who is.

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18 minutes ago, nico002 said:

The idea that Darnolds processor is slow is laughable. Jets have been measured as giving the QB the least time to throw of any team in the NFL. If Darnolds processor was slow we’d be seeing Luke Falk type offensive performances. Our WR get no separation and Darnold is forced to go through more reads than any QB I watch on a weekly basis. 

I don’t think Darnold is a slow processor, but I think he rattles easily, which is kinda worse. 

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7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

My opinion. Ownership is all in on Darnold. If Gase isnt they'll find someone who is.

Yeah, that’s where I am also.

Darnold has been about what most young QBs are. Inconsistent.

My problem isn’t with him per se, it’s with what I feel are peoples over the top evaluations of what he’s done so far, and what he can and will do in the future.

Theres nothing wrong with being positive, but just saying the guy has shown you he can win multiple Super Bowls, average 35-40 TDs and 5000 yards per year because you’ve seen that in him? I might just question that...

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26 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Well what will be telling is what Joe Douglas does. I have seen posts saying the Jets should keep an eye open for a new QB. And that Joe Douglas should take one in the first three rounds next year.

I believe Joe Douglas and Adam Gase will end this year knowing that Darnold needs to improve, but having no doubt that he is the future. 

I would be really surprised if the Jets take a QB early in the draft next year. They are convinced he is the guy and won't waste a pick that could be used building around him. My 2 cents...

 

I'm very much on the fence with Darnold, but I wouldnt take a QB next year either 

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22 minutes ago, nico002 said:

The idea that Darnolds processor is slow is laughable. Jets have been measured as giving the QB the least time to throw of any team in the NFL. If Darnolds processor was slow we’d be seeing Luke Falk type offensive performances. Our WR get no separation and Darnold is forced to go through more reads than any QB I watch on a weekly basis. 

Can you provide a citation for the stat you referenced? Thanks. 

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