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State of the Jets - Arguably more depressing than pre-Darnold

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Just now, Welp said:

So give Maccagnan more draft picks to **** up on? Let’s be honest he probably would have chosen Rosen had he not traded away the original pick and I wouldn’t be surprised if have he chosen Polite with the 2nd round pick that pick he traded away.

I'm not even sure what this means.  Should we have traded away all our picks because Macc was bad?  We should have fired Macc much earlier, he should have never been given the chance to trade up for Darnold in the 1st place.  Once it was clear how big a mistake Adams over Watson/Mahommes was, he should have never been allowed another decision for this franchise.

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There's no way around it, we are at least two years from some sort of resolution for this team.  I should call it stabilization.

We don't have the money to quick fix the team alla 2015 with high priced FAs.  We've tried that two years in a row, and it didn't work and now we've run out of options on that front.

Olines and the skill players- qb connection don't get continuity over night and almost never in a single year (unless there is a lot of stabilizing pieces in place prior), and new rookies take time to develop. 

We've also missed Darnold's rookie window and will likely have to pay him before we are in playoff contention.

If you look at the teams around the league that are winning right now, their best units have all been under the same system and with the same core personnel packages for at least 2-3 years.  See KC offense, or the SF defense, or the Pats defense.

So yea, a rebuild is incoming and there is considerable uncertainty in the front office/gm/coaches and personel groups going forward.  In short, a fairly typical bottom of the barrel team state with the one bright spot that the QB position likely will have some stability for 4 or 5 years  (and lets pray that works out like we all hope).

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

I'm not even sure what this means.  Should we have traded away all our picks because Macc was bad?  We should have fired Macc much earlier, he should have never been given the chance to trade up for Darnold in the 1st place.  Once it was clear how big a mistake Adams over Watson/Mahommes was, he should have never been allowed another decision for this franchise.

That’s the whole point of what I was originally saying. There’s infinitely more to be upset about than harp on this roster being barren because Maccagnan traded away several picks for Darnold. If he actually did his job properly the roster would have been much more competitive at this point even if he had traded away those picks.

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9 minutes ago, Hael said:

There's no way around it, we are at least two years from some sort of resolution for this team.  I should call it stabilization.

We don't have the money to quick fix the team alla 2015 with high priced FAs.  We've tried that two years in a row, and it didn't work and now we've run out of options on that front.

Olines and the skill players- qb connection don't get continuity over night and almost never in a single year (unless there is a lot of stabilizing pieces in place prior), and new rookies take time to develop. 

We've also missed Darnold's rookie window and will likely have to pay him before we are in playoff contention.

If you look at the teams around the league that are winning right now, their best units have all been under the same system and with the same core personnel packages for at least 2-3 years.  See KC offense, or the SF defense, or the Pats defense.

So yea, a rebuild is incoming and there is considerable uncertainty in the front office/gm/coaches and personel groups going forward.  In short, a fairly typical bottom of the barrel team state with the one bright spot that the QB position likely will have some stability for 4 or 5 years  (and lets pray that works out like we all hope).

They can be competitive next year if they play this off season right. Surrounding Darnold with help and protection, get guys back from injury, maybe hitting on an udfa and we're in business. 

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Facts are not welcome in conversation about Sam Darnold.  Only reasons why, despite facts, he's elite.

Yes, when basing an entire argument off of the Win/Loss record of a QB, attributing 7 additional losses to him for games he didn't play is now considered #facts. 

For those interested in a legitimate discussion about Darnold, his record last year was 4-9 and this year it is 5-6 so even if he loses the next two games, he still showed improvement year after year. 

Also, if you are going to talk about giving up picks for a QB who should be able to affect the Win/Loss record of the team, I think it should also be noted that the team is 0-7 without him as QB. If he truly had no positive impact on the team, they should have won 2.6 out of the 7 games played without him, the same as his winning percentage with the team. 

#facts 

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You forgot to mention the new uniforms.  The Jets went from having one of the sharpest, cleanest legacy uniforms in the league to what looks to my eyes as childlike and lame.  The jet stripe on the shoulder pads is in an awkward place, the helmet logo looks like it was designed by a child and the black uniforms are just horrible.  Now they are painful to watch in more than one way.

Why the heck did they switch from a beautiful, classic uniform to this pathetic mess ?

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Jets fans -we can’t fire Gase this offseason because no coach will want to come here.

Also Jets fan - Joe Douglas is great and highly respected. People will want to come here knowing he is running the show.

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1 hour ago, JetFreak89 said:

Yes, when basing an entire argument off of the Win/Loss record of a QB, attributing 7 additional losses to him for games he didn't play is now considered #facts. 

For those interested in a legitimate discussion about Darnold, his record last year was 4-9 and this year it is 5-6 so even if he loses the next two games, he still showed improvement year after year. 

Also, if you are going to talk about giving up picks for a QB who should be able to affect the Win/Loss record of the team, I think it should also be noted that the team is 0-7 without him as QB. If he truly had no positive impact on the team, they should have won 2.6 out of the 7 games played without him, the same as his winning percentage with the team. 

#facts 

First, the entire argument is not based on W/L record.  But, you already knew that.

Second, for a fanbase that's spent the entire week projecting future failure of an opponents MVP QB due to injury, you would think the fact that Darnold has been unavailable for 20% of his games would be considered part of the evaluation with him.

Third, if you want to make the argument that Sam Darnold is more valuable to the Jets than Luke Falk, I can certainly concede the point.

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Macc was atrocious.  No way around it...coming after the Idzik/Rex clown show only amplifies the damge the last two regimes have done to an already blah Jets brand of football.

Have zero in confidence in Gase and can only hope Douglas has more of clue then the JN draft thread.

Darnold looks young and maybe promising but only if Gase is decent (probably not), in which case we're back to square one soon enough. 

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First, the entire argument is not based on W/L record.  But, you already knew that.
Second, for a fanbase that's spent the entire week projecting future failure of an opponents MVP QB due to injury, you would think the fact that Darnold has been unavailable for 20% of his games would be considered part of the evaluation with him.
Third, if you want to make the argument that Sam Darnold is more valuable to the Jets than Luke Falk, I can certainly concede the point.


I'm not casting blame so much as stating a fact. The team was 5-11 the year before we drafted Darnold, it was 4-12 his first year as a starter, and it's going to end up 5-11 this year. The reason you give up four picks for a QB is because you think he can paper over all the holes you can't fill because you gave up four picks for a QB. So far he hasn't done it.


Feel free to try and spin how this argument isn’t based entirely on wins and losses.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

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8 hours ago, dbatesman said:

I'm not casting blame so much as stating a fact. The team was 5-11 the year before we drafted Darnold, it was 4-12 his first year as a starter, and it's going to end up 5-11 this year. The reason you give up four picks for a QB is because you think he can paper over all the holes you can't fill because you gave up four picks for a QB. So far he hasn't done it.

How is a 21 year old rookie or a 22 year old 2nd year NFL QB going to have a lot of success with the talent on this team? Geez, give the kid a break. I believe he has shown extreme upside, especially how he was running for his life last night and made some great throws, especially the TD to Crowder.

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5 hours ago, TeddEY said:

He's likely about to go 5-11 in year two, is in the bottom of the league in standard and advanced metrics, but it's the "haters" who have to do mental gymnastics to support their argument.  Yeah.

I cannot tell you how good a reply this was. It could be quoted fifty times a day around here.

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Jets fans are experts when it comes to identifying bad players, teams, GMs, draft picks. We’re bloodhounds when it comes to tracking down the stench of football incompetence. Of course, we’ve had 50years of training.

Being a Jets fan is being a connoisseur of suck. 

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The level of delusion is great it seems.  Much of our roster is gone next year and we have fans talking about AFCE contention....

No, we are not ok.  Objectively too.  We don’t have the assets to turn it around in FA unless we hit on about 8 Brian Poole level success stories (eg chronically underrated talents that are cheap and that perform at a high level).  That almost never happens..  it’s usualy about one or two per year max.  

Meanwhile we have to hope that our own players don’t regress (again that almost never happens).  Every year u have guys that don’t play as well as they used too.

its also unclear how much coaching turnaround there is...

Im just tired of of the same story year after year.  Hype a mediocre squad to death before they even get a chance.  Then piss and moan after the first game of the season ruins the party.  The same silly story has been played for the last several years.

then we start fire the coach/GM/everyone over reactions which are just as bad since the front office laughably pays attention to this, and we end up with zero continuity year after year.

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6 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Facts are not welcome in conversation about Sam Darnold.  Only reasons why, despite facts, he's elite.

You're saying it's a "fact" that if the Jets now lose out they will be 5-11 "again" with Darnold?  Actually if they lose out they will be 5-8 with Darnold.

They were 5-8 with Darnold in his rookie season....Bowles D closes out 2 games where Darnold gave them the lead late over Houston and Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay, Darnold is 7-6 his rookie year.

This year the Jets are 5-6 RIGHT NOW in Darnold's 2nd season.  The back-up QBs in Darnold's first 2 years are 0-6, pretty much PROVING how incredibly bad the Jet rosters have been in Darnold's first 2 years ie you do not have an "Elite Skillset" like Darnold has?  You do not have a prayer of Winning a single game....but that is Darnold's fault too?

Kid is putting up "average W-L records"  RIGHT NOW...not 5-11's.....with the WORST roster in the NFL.  Completes 60% of his throws while almost NEVER given the luxury to go through his reads, plant, step and throw.

He makes lots of incredible throws AND some very poor ones.  We'll never know his potential without just an Average NFL OL, which hopefully Douglas can put together.

Was it Eli Manning's 4th or even 5th year where people were saying that he "must have been adopted"?  Couldn't really be a Manning.  He threw way too many ugly passes.

Darnold is not Elite....yet.  But I see an "Elite Skillset", which I never saw in Chad Pennington, Mark Sanchez, Geno Smith.

Need some luck involved too.  This is for the most part just a terrible organization.  Douglas is still unproven and Gase has to be given the same mulligan as Darnold....even if many think most of this is his fault.

Any Hi-Light Films of the 2019 Jets should include a Disclaimer: THIS IS NOT AN NFL TEAM.

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Last night was an illustration of two teams from opposite ends of the spectrum. The Ravens are a truly great organization that does everything right. They keep a constant stream of talent coming through the door and it's the reason they are always relevant. They have excellent ownership that made an excellent hire years ago in Ozzie Newsome. From there, it's been all Newsome that's made the team great. From him to Erik Decosta, the transition was super smooth. Newsome hired John Harbaugh and you couldn't ask for a better HC.

The Jets have done EVERYTHING wrong. I don't blame ownership for anything more than not hiring the right people. All it's going to take is one good hire and everything will be fine. Hopefully, it's already been made? If JD can actually start that constant stream of talent coming through the door and hire the right HC, the Jets fortunes will immediately change for the better. Right now? They're deservedly so a LAUGHINGSTOCK.

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2 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Last night was an illustration of two teams from opposite ends of the spectrum. The Ravens are a truly great organization that does everything right. They keep a constant stream of talent coming through the door and it's the reason they are always relevant. They have excellent ownership that made an excellent hire years ago in Ozzie Newsome. From there, it's been all Newsome that's made the team great. From him to Erik Decosta, the transition was super smooth. Newsome hired John Harbaugh and you couldn't ask for a better HC.

The Jets have done EVERYTHING wrong. I don't blame ownership for anything more than not hiring the right people. All it's going to take is one good hire and everything will be fine. Hopefully, it's already been made? If JD can actually start that constant stream of talent coming through the door and hire the right HC, the Jets fortunes will immediately change for the better. Right now? They're deservedly so a LAUGHINGSTOCK.

Constant stream of talent, I’m taking some talent. 

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8 hours ago, Eaton Beaver said:

How is a 21 year old rookie or a 22 year old 2nd year NFL QB going to have a lot of success with the talent on this team? 

 

17 hours ago, dbatesman said:

The reason you give up four picks for a QB is because you think he can paper over all the holes you can't fill because you gave up four picks for a QB. So far he hasn't done it.

 

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I don’t think the Jets are far off assuming Darnold takes the leap next year we were all hoping for this year.

Just getting guys like Herndon and Mosely back will be huge. Lets also hope our franchise QB doesn’t contract another debilitating illness.

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6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

 

 

Actually the reason why that QB is so valuable is that you don’t have to pay the player for a while so you have a window to build a team around him while he’s not making much $.

The Jets have done a terrible job thus far. 

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9 hours ago, JetFreak89 said:

 

 

 


Feel free to try and spin how this argument isn’t based entirely on wins and losses.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

 

 

Ah, ok.  So, that’s one post within an argument as I see it.  I guess you’re calling that the entire argument against Darnold.  Sorry for the confusion.

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This thread is moronic, no offense.

The Jets are 5-6 with their franchise QB at the helm.  5-6 despite playing on a bottom 3 roster in the NFL that has 90% of it's starters on IR.  It's reasonable to think a just staying healthy can make for a better season in 2020.

If Joe D knows what he's doing, there is no reason the Jets couldnt make a quick turnaround.  Just revamping the OL alone is probably a +3 game swing in the W column.  If there able to hit a homerun in the offseason, who knows how good they could be?

 

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19 hours ago, dbatesman said:

I'm not casting blame so much as stating a fact. The team was 5-11 the year before we drafted Darnold, it was 4-12 his first year as a starter, and it's going to end up 5-11 this year. The reason you give up four picks for a QB is because you think he can paper over all the holes you can't fill because you gave up four picks for a QB. So far he hasn't done it.

This is true in theory, but I’m trying to think of a QB that proved the bolded part true. Can you? The only guys I can think of are RG3 (short lived obviously) and Goff (whom I still don’t believe in, and to be fair, he was on maybe the most talented team in the league last year after having an awful first year himself).

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

This thread is moronic, no offense.

The Jets are 5-6 with their franchise QB at the helm.  5-6 despite playing on a bottom 3 roster in the NFL that has 90% of it's starters on IR.  It's reasonable to think a just staying healthy can make for a better season in 2020.

If Joe D knows what he's doing, there is no reason the Jets couldnt make a quick turnaround.  Just revamping the OL alone is probably a +3 game swing in the W column.  If there able to hit a homerun in the offseason, who knows how good they could be?

 

Forget W-L. Can we see this coach just get a top half offense and a significant step forward in Sam’s development while not getting blown-out of 57% of the games (his current blowout loss rate this season)?

The only bright side I see with Gase is that maybe he’ll use his connection to get Peyton to take Sam to Ismay, Montana from Jan till August to teach him how to play QB on the pre-snap.

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15 hours ago, Samtorobby47 said:

They can be competitive next year if they play this off season right. 

You know it’s weird that the Jets hadn’t considered a strategy like this sooner. 

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25 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This is true in theory, but I’m trying to think of a QB that proved the bolded part true. Can you? The only guys I can think of are RG3 (short lived obviously) and Goff (whom I still don’t believe in, and to be fair, he was on maybe the most talented team in the league last year after having an awful first year himself).

Watson and Mahomes off the top of my head

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50 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Watson and Mahomes off the top of my head

Standouts no doubt. I’d take them over Darnold in a heartbeat. But the holes you’re asking Darnold to paper over are craters on the moon relative to what those two were drafted into, but I suspect you knew that already.

Either way, I agree Sam should be better given the draft capital invested in him and to this point he hasn’t been consistently. I’m of the opinion that there are multiple factors at play to explain why.

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26 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Standouts no doubt. I’d take them over Darnold in a heartbeat. But the holes you’re asking Darnold to paper over are craters on the moon relative to what those two were drafted into, but I suspect you knew that already.

Either way, I agree Sam should be better given the draft capital invested in him and to this point he hasn’t been consistently. I’m of the opinion that there are multiple factors at play to explain why.

I think it’s fair for those guys to be the benchmark for Darnold considering - the Jets decided to pass on them, and they’re both on their rookie contracts. Having high expectations for Darnold out of the gate I don’t think is unfair. The Jets need Darnold to be in that tier in order to feel confident in him, imo. His performance to date doesn’t suggest he’s going to be in that range. 

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1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

I think it’s fair for those guys to be the benchmark for Darnold considering - the Jets decided to pass on them, and they’re both on their rookie contracts. Having high expectations for Darnold out of the gate I don’t think is unfair. The Jets need Darnold to be in that tier in order to feel confident in him, imo. His performance to date doesn’t suggest he’s going to be in that range. 

Not much to disagree with here. I just think that it’s prudent to recognize the vast differences in situations and be a bit more patient with Sam. 

The way I look at it, this is the best potential I’ve ever seen quarterbacking the Jets (I’m 33). while I understand the rush to make a judgement on him so that we can cut bait and draft someone else, unless a Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck are coming out next year, I’d rather wait and give him a chance. People think his age is an excuse, but I think it’s more of an explanation. Between playing QB for 1.5 years in HS and 2 years at USC, he simply doesn’t have all of the years of experience and reps that QBs who typically get drafted this high have. 

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On 12/13/2019 at 10:02 AM, nj meadowlands said:

It's almost as if we should not have already committed ANOTHER year of employ to this unimpressive white dude with the seemingly endless record of failing upward... 

I never liked Gase but what does him being white have to do with anything?  Is it that you think he's only here because he's white?  The Johnson's track record says no because they hired Herm and Bowles (and kept them both for a good number of years).

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On 12/13/2019 at 10:02 AM, nj meadowlands said:

I woke up today not upset or surprised about what transpired on Thursday Night Football -- I think we all came to terms pretty quickly with the facts that the Ravens are awesome this year, the Jets are dreadful, and the Ravens would deliver the Jets yet another primetime spanking in their house.  In fact, I thought the 53 players who dressed yesterday played very hard, which (very sadly), is the best we can hope for these days.  I did wake up, however, enveloped by the sinking sense that despite the never ending free-fall of the past 10 years, we have not yet hit rock bottom.  No, that will occur in the 2020's.  Let me preface this by saying it is not a "SOJF" post, SAR, so you can carry on with selling your tickets for next week to Joe Bob from Western PA.  Rather, there are a few very concrete reasons why the State of the Jets on December 13, 2019 is more hopeless than it was before the Jets drafted their beacon of hope on April 26, 2018.

  • Sam Darnold - Now 9-15 as a starting QB, Darnold has thrown 34 touchdowns vs. 27 INTs, and lost 4 more fumbles.  Seemingly every week, he does something that makes your jaw drop in awe, and something else that makes you recoil in terror.  I still believe in Darnold, who is only 23, has a tremendous arm, processes extremely quickly, and might have a more impressive temperament than anyone in the league.  I still think he'll be good.  I think the "excuses" many make for him regarding our bottom-5 offensive line and below average skill position crew are perfectly valid.  I also think the cynics have every reason to question whether the kid who turned the ball over a lot at USC will ever grow out of being the guy who turns the ball over a lot in the NFL, whether his footwork can be salvaged from years of playing behind leaky offensive lines, or whether his decision making will ever improve when his boss's decision making is incomprehensible.
     
  • The Rest of the Roster - The biggest indictment on the Jets is that, aside from Darnold,  they have made no significant upgrades or long-term investments at the most important positions on the roster.  It's been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum.  Offensive line, edge rusher, cornerback, WR1.  Nothing.  Nada.  For YEARS.  They have instead wasted their time and capital building their defense into a unit that could compete with the running attack of the Providence Steam Roller in the 1930's.  Not very useful today, guys! The cupboard is so bare that I am rooting for the Jets to trade what are probably their two best players, Bell and Adams, to re-coup a few extra draft picks so that Joe Douglas -- himself an unknown quantity -- can have a legitimate chance at re-building this mess.  (Speaking of Joe Douglas, we all better hope his first Free Agency goes a little bit better than Ryan Kalil)  In a league where turnarounds are usually swift, the Jets' roster is probably 2 years away (which we seem to say every single December) from being remotely competitive.  You know what else happens in 2 years?  Sam Darnold will be an unrestricted free agent.  Depressing.
     
  • Adam Gase - I am not a Hire Planes to Get People Fired guy. I think the NYSF guy is a complete clown.  But the body of evidence against Adam Gase as a head coach in the NFL is staggering.  He is now 28-35 as a Head Coach and his teams seem to lose by 2 touchdowns every single week.  Everything we feared about Gase last January has been proven right.  He's a megalomaniac who treats his injured players like sh*t.  He can't figure out a way to properly utilize the best offensive weapon he's had since his time in Denver.  His second half offensive gameplans get eviscerated every single week.  It's almost as if we should not have already committed ANOTHER year of employ to this unimpressive white dude with the seemingly endless record of failing upward... 
     
  • The Johnsons - ...which leads us to the Johnson boys.  Lord only knows when Brother Woody will return from his eurotrip as Comrade President's ambassador to the UK.  Do we even want him back? (Elections have consequences, folks!)  When Woody was appointed ambassador, I was among the many of us ecstatic about the notion that maybe Brother Chris would run things differently.  Aside from being a little less socially inept, Brother Chris does not run things differently.  The Johnsons are the common thread presiding over the worst stretch in Jets history.  Worse than the 70's.  Worse than Kotite.  Woody Johnson is not a smart dude.  It took him 5 years to earn a history degree from Arizona State.  He is a dumb guy who was born rich, and who bought the Jets to be his toy.  The Jets are not a vocation to the Johnsons like the Steelers are to the Rooneys or the Giants to the Maras.  The Jets are dumb Woody's money making toy.  They are so profitable, and Woody has so little interest in what goes on on the field, that there is no real incentive to change anything (least of all, their dumbass reporting structure).

In summary,  Darnold may be the answer at QB, and he may not.  But given the state of the roster, the further teardown that is required to fix it, and the utter incompetence of the people tasked with putting it back together, we might never actually get to find out!  That, my friends, is ******* depressing.

Hard No on this.

This team is totally dif if we have Mosely, Adams, Herndon, Griffin and Thomas back. Plug in some quality o line man and moving from our floor of 5 wins to 10 wins 

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I am really sick of you ******* guys complaining about how bad it is.  As bad as Kotite? The absolute worst the Jets have been over any two year stretch since Johnson took over was 9 wins.  Kotite had 4 in 2 years.  The sh*t show that Walt Michaels took over had 9 in three years.  Yes, I am counting Walt's first year.  It doesn't take much to turn a team around.  Especially if you believe in Darnold.  You can complain without it being the worst of all time.  It's not the Great Depression.  Stop being a bunch of pussies.  

 

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