As Former top Exec in Philly, How are Joe Douglas Drafts With Eagles Looking Today?

[JustInFudge]

18 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It is.  It's holding an asset that is better spent towards building around our QB.  IMO that is a missed opportunity, it's "standing pat" on the Macc model of team building.

You're quite right, we can (and should) do plenty with out existing assets.  IMO, that is not enough.  I will repeat, you do not build around a safety, much less a strong safety.  A safety is IMO a luxury, a final nice-to-have for a team in position to compete for a championship who already has a FQB and solid O-line and O-skill players.   

No half measures.  Rebuild or don't, but do it 100%.  If we prefer to keep Adams, fine, then we're doubling down on "Defense Wins Championships" I guess.  Half this or half that just winds up at half.  we've had half an offense long enough.  Do, or do not, there is no try.

And, as I see it at least, it could be better without Adams and with another piece of offense.

I simply do not see the difference between Adams and an "average NFL Safety" being meaningful.  

And I certainly don;t see if being worth Revis-money, which I am willing to bet is what Adams is going to demand when he hits free agency. 

Sell now, don't wait and lose out.  Selling Adams now is what the Patriots would do, we all know it.

What if, next season the Jets fancy a brand new OL with say 3-4 new starters via the draft/free agency and what if they grab one of the potential stud WR's via draft and they find a mid round RB or up and coming FA to compliment Bell?  However, they werent able to find reasonable compensation to move Jamal Adams.

Is that standing pat and taking half measures on a rebuild? 

[section314]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Why do we have to forget about Watson and Mahomes?  Because that's the answer.  QB-needy team takes one of the top QB's of the draft class instead of a damn Safety.  It doesn't get simpler than that.   

 

And in 2019 edge rusher needy team takes best rusher in draft(Allen) instead of the 4th or 5th best DT. Definitely doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

 What if, next season the Jets fancy a brand new OL with say 3-4 new starters via the draft/free agency and what if they grab one of the potential stud WR's via draft and they find a mid round RB or up and coming FA to compliment Bell?  However, they werent able to find reasonable compensation to move Jamal Adams.

Is that standing pat and taking half measures on a rebuild? 

 

Free agency isn't a viable method for the Jets findings a lot of those pieces without massively overpaying.  Thus you're depending almost exclusively on the draft to find those pieces.  So what you're suggesting could happen is basically impossible in one offseason.   A stud WR AND 3-4 new starting Offensive Linemen?  Come on now.  

At least with the package of picks coming from Adams, even if less than we hoped, it would become possible to fix a lot of our issues in one draft.  

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, genot said:

Stop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The only two on that list that might have been in his long term plans we"re hack and cousins. the rest we're just stop gaps.

I'm skimming through posts here, and desperately trying to wrap my mind around why you're coming to Macc's defense.

What exactly are you positing regarding his tenure?

[Sonny Werblin]

Organization performance at drafting is never about the GM. It is about the guys a GM surrounds himself with who debate and create the big board. Smart people are smart because they listen to the right people. We can't even begin to evaluate JD's draft acumen as the guy in charge until he has had 2 or 3 drafts.

[genot]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I'm skimming through posts here, and desperately trying to wrap my mind around why you're coming to Macc's defense.

What exactly are you positing regarding his tenure?

When you have the record the jet's have had during mac's tenure, it's hard to defend anyone who managed and coached this team. Everybody is looking at why, and will point out the errors and not pay attention to what the alternatives were. Was Mac, a good GM. No. Was he a horrible GM, who never did anything right. No. He falls somewhere in between those two trains of thought.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, genot said:

Was Mac, a good GM. No. Was he a horrible GM, who never did anything right. No. He falls somewhere in between those two trains of thought.

He was a horrible GM.  He's not in "the middle" of those two groups.  There's quantifiable evidence that's been posted on JN countless times demonstrating he was objectively awful at his job.  Worst GM since Matt Millen.  

[peekskill68]

2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Organization performance at drafting is never about the GM. It is about the guys a GM surrounds himself with who debate and create the big board. Smart people are smart because they listen to the right people. We can't even begin to evaluate JD's draft acumen as the guy in charge until he has had 2 or 3 drafts.

You mean the Kevin Costner movie wasn't real?

[Paradis]

9 minutes ago, genot said:

When you have the record the jet's have had during mac's tenure, it's hard to defend anyone who managed and coached this team. Everybody is looking at why, and will point out the errors and not pay attention to what the alternatives were. Was Mac, a good GM. No. Was he a horrible GM, who never did anything right. No. He falls somewhere in between those two trains of thought.

Actually, i think he might be the worst. Here's why--

He knew better. 

What's worse than a GM who demonstrates complete incompetence? One who shows you he "gets it" but can't get out of his own way. That's the functional alcoholic. He showed prudence with trades, cutting dead weight, etc, but couldn't run a draft room to save his life, and got caught chasing his tail in FA as a result. 

He couldn't man up and hand the personel keys over.  

He deserves exile.

[Warfish]

29 minutes ago, JiF said:

What if, next season the Jets fancy a brand new OL with say 3-4 new starters via the draft/free agency and what if they grab one of the potential stud WR's via draft and they find a mid round RB or up and coming FA to compliment Bell?  However, they werent able to find reasonable compensation to move Jamal Adams.

Is that standing pat and taking half measures on a rebuild? 

I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make here is?  If you support retaining Adams, simply say so.

1. I think we can get "reasonable compensation" for Adams.  Not hyperbolic compensation (which many Jets fans will demand, of course), but reasonable.  A 2020 #1 and another 4/5 mid-round pick in 2020 or perhaps a higher pick in 2021.  

2. Getting 3-4 new starter quality O-linemen, a #1 WR, a #3 WR, a #1 RB (Bell will not be back IMO, nor should he be) is going to cost.  Alot.  More than just FA $$$ and our existing picks can provide.  Moving Adams and Bell is a requirement IMO.

3. Bell, mentioned above, is a poor fit here, I don't think he likes it here, and I don't think Gase wants him here.  He's too expensive for what we're getting and where we are.  He should be moved for picks.

4. Anderson will not give us a home town discount, and he is simply not, in any universe, worth #1 WR money, which he will demand.  He will be allowed to leave, and will need replaced.  The only starter-quality WR we have who will/should be back in Crowder, the slot/#2. 

Doing less is a half measure.  We're back in full rebuild mode, sadly.  I didn't want to be here, but here we are.  It's time to tear this down, and rebuild it up the right way, with a focus on Sam Darnold first and above all else, and building a wall in front of him, and weapons for him to use at appropriate prices and scheme fits.

[genot]

Just now, Paradis said:

Actually, i think he might be the worst. Here's why--

He knew better. 

What's worse than a GM who demonstrates complete incompetence? One who shows you he "gets it" but can't get out of his own way. That's the functional alcoholic. He showed prudence with trades, cutting dead weight, etc, but couldn't run a draft room to save his life, and got caught chasing his tail in FA as a result. 

He couldn't man up and hand the personel keys over.  

He deserves to exile.

He drafted some quality players. Idzik didn't draft one quality player. They're are good football players all over the place on the Jets. Not enough. Not at some key positions. Guess what. Those key positions that need filling will be available to us in this years draft. you know that better than most.

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, genot said:

He drafted some quality players. Idzik didn't draft one quality player. They're are good football players all over the place on the Jets. Not enough. Not at some key positions. Guess what. Those key positions that need filling will be available to us in this years draft. you know that better than most.

Macc had 5 drafts.  Idzik had 2.  And even the rare times when Macc drafted a "quality player", there were better and clearly obvious players he SHOULD have drafted in those spots.

The only pick he ever "won", where he basically out-performed other GM's in evaluating a particular player and taking him, was Jordan Jenkins.  Even the Herndon pick can be questioned in hindsight because of his character concerns.  

[Apache 51]

Bottom line decimated with injury in crucial positions(no excuse). Still alive. Gonna have to reach down real deep at the Linc. Place will be rocking, literally.

[jmat321]

Joe D like Starbucks?  His resume screams Starbucks.

[Apache 51]

Rockin and crazy, like it's another NFC championship game. Nothing like it. Dallas will win. Dallas Sucks!

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jmat321 said:

Joe D like Starbucks?  His resume screams Starbucks.

Yes.  All those years being a valuable scout under Ozzie Newsome scream coffee boy.  

[Warfish]

Here is what the 2020 Jets need to figure out:

2020 offense:

QB - Sam Darnold
QB #2 - ???
QB #3 - ???

RB #1 - ??? (Bell should be gone, see above)
RB #2 - Powell again?
RB #3 - Montgomery?

WR #1 - ??? (Anderson gone, too expensive)
WR #2 - Crowder
WR #3 - ??? 
WR #4 - ???

TE #1 - Herndon/Griffin
TE #2 - Griffin/Herndon
Blocking TE - ???

Tackle - ???
Guard - ???
Center - ???
Guard - ???
Tackle - ???

There are literally only three players, in addition to Sam, that are "locks" to be here and playing in 2020, Crowder, Herndon and Griffin.  every other spot is 100% open to upgrade and replacement of the 2019 incumbant.

This will be a massive lift for Douglas even if he retains Bell and overpays for Anderson (who will never be a legit #1 no matter how much he makes) and holds on to ol' 3-yards-oldman-bullhead Powell and brings back Trevor Limpy as the #2 QB.  

Even if he can make something of one or two existing O-linemen (and that's doubtful beyond depth spots), thats a LOT of holes to fill.

With this much need, I just can't see a valid argument to keep a run-stopping box-blitzer Strong Safety worth the salary and compensation of Adams long-term. 

His trade instantly fills one vital need (pick your favorite) via draft (the #1 pick), should fill a lineman need (the 2nd pick we get, say a 3rd or 4th), and saves enough salary to fill another vital need (again, pick your favorite) via long-term salary cap space availability.  How can we justify keeping him if he alone can fill THREE positions on the Offense for Sam? 

 

[section314]

36 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Organization performance at drafting is never about the GM. It is about the guys a GM surrounds himself with who debate and create the big board. Smart people are smart because they listen to the right people. We can't even begin to evaluate JD's draft acumen as the guy in charge until he has had 2 or 3 drafts.

I hope that's the biggest thing he learned from all his years with Ozzie Newsome.

[Apache 51]

2 minutes ago, section314 said:

I hope that's the biggest thing he learned from all his years with Ozzie Newsome.

I just hope certain morons keep their nose out of it.

[section314]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Here is what the 2020 Jets need to figure out:

2020 offense:

QB - Sam Darnold
QB #2 - ???
QB #3 - ???

RB #1 - ??? (Bell should be gone, see above)
RB #2 - Powell again?
RB #3 - Montgomery?

WR #1 - ??? (Anderson gone, too expensive)
WR #2 - Crowder
WR #3 - ??? 
WR #4 - ???

TE #1 - Herndon/Griffin
TE #2 - Griffin/Herndon
Blocking TE - ???

Tackle - ???
Guard - ???
Center - ???
Guard - ???
Tackle - ???

There are literally only three players, in addition to Sam, that are "locks" to be here and playing in 2020, Crowder, Herndon and Griffin.  every other spot is 100% open to upgrade and replacement of the 2019 incumbant.

This will be a massive lift for Douglas even if he retains Bell and overpays for Anderson (who will never be a legit #1 no matter how much he makes) and holds on to ol' 3-yards-oldman-bullhead Powell and brings back Trevor Limpy as the #2 QB.  

Even if he can make something of one or two existing O-linemen (and that's doubtful beyond depth spots), thats a LOT of holes to fill.

With this much need, I just can't see a valid argument to keep a run-stopping box-blitzer Strong Safety worth the salary and compensation of Adams long-term. 

His trade instantly fills one vital need (pick your favorite) via draft (the #1 pick), should fill a lineman need (the 2nd pick we get, say a 3rd or 4th), and saves enough salary to fill another vital need (again, pick your favorite) via long-term salary cap space availability.  How can we justify keeping him if he alone can fill THREE positions on the Offense for Sam? 

 

With a new GM in town, I think next year is definitely a put up or shut up year for Herndon.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

I'm not sure what his capacity  on the Ravens was but the point of the article was with the Eagles, JD was VP and had considerable  input to who was picked. Of course he didn't  make rhe final decision,  but you gotta think he had influnce over how they set the draftboard

Yeah and the players, the team they put together won a SB.  
And I have no idea what influence he had, for who on their draft board 

Funniest part is we go from cartwheels because we got JD and now question what he is before a single draft.  So Jet fan like

 

[section314]

2 minutes ago, Apache 51 said:

I just hope certain morons keep their nose out of it.

Could you be more specific?? Kidding aside, totally agree with you.

[Fantasy Island]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:50 AM, BurnleyJet said:

So he drafts like Maccagnan. 

Nobody but Idzik drafted as bad as MacCagnan

[Paradis]

57 minutes ago, genot said:

He drafted some quality players. Idzik didn't draft one quality player. They're are good football players all over the place on the Jets. Not enough. Not at some key positions. Guess what. Those key positions that need filling will be available to us in this years draft. you know that better than most.

You tell me which quality players he drafted, and I'll tell you why you're wrong. 

He wholly, categorically and completely blew it.  Darnold is the only silver dollar and a door mat could have made that pick. That's like telling me I deserve credit for a bedding a lady who was paid to be there. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, DRJETS said:

Idzik won a Sb when he was part of the Seahawks staff.  No? They obviously had much better draft than the Eagles.  But hey, these are the same fan crowning mr. Nobody savior when he had done nothing yet.  Let’s wait until he turns things around before showering this guy with praises. Do not go back to the Mac debacle as I remember 75% of the fan here were having chill on their knee when he was hired.

Idzik?  Not the same

Now who’s crowning JD with being anything more than not being Macc, working his way up through a number of respected staffs right now?  Where’s the praise for what he’s done?  Optimism doesn’t exist for too many 

[Beerfish]

Biggest benefit of having Douglas is it means we get at least two more years of the offensive genius Gase.  We don't want any other team poaching our O Guru in a bidding war.

[Jetsfan80]

21 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

Nobody but Idzik drafted as bad as MacCagnan

Macc was worse.  

• Idzik drafted Sheldon Richardson at 13 overall, and he was was by far a better pick than any pick Macc made over 5 seasons. 
• Geno Smith was a far better QB prospect than Christian Hackenberg.  Like not even on the same planet.  3-year starter who threw 42 TD/6 INT and 71.2 % completion in his Senior year.  Hack's best college season was 20/10 with 58.9 % completions.  
• Brian Winters mostly sucked but has been a starting G for 7 seasons.  Idzik's first 3rd round pick was spent on OL.  It took until Year 5 for Macc to draft an OL in the 3rd.  
• Oday Aboushi is still bouncing around the league, starting 22 games for 4 different teams since the Jets let him go.  The overwhelming majority of Macc picks are no longer in the league, so that can't be discounted.
• Quincy Enunwa just can't stay healthy, but at least had one decent year (58 rec, 857 yards, 4 TD).  That's a lot more than can be said for the likes of ArDarius Stewart and Chad Hansen.
• Dakota Dozier is also still in the league; he started 4 games for the Vikings this year. 

Say what you will about Idzik but he saw the value in taking multiple OL in a draft.  That's more than you can say for Macc.  

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Free agency isn't a viable method for the Jets findings a lot of those pieces without massively overpaying.  Thus you're depending almost exclusively on the draft to find those pieces.  So what you're suggesting could happen is basically impossible in one offseason.   A stud WR AND 3-4 new starting Offensive Linemen?  Come on now.  

At least with the package of picks coming from Adams, even if less than we hoped, it would become possible to fix a lot of our issues in one draft.  

It's absolutely possible and far from impossible.  This is a deep OL/WR draft.   They just acquired an extra picks from the Leo trade.  They could draft 2-3 OL, 1 WR, 1 RB while adding to more OL via FA very easily.  If you've noticed, I'm fully supporting the idea of an all offense offseason.  Throw UDFA's at D for all I care.  

I'm just trying to figure out what the qualifiers are for "standing pat" or "taking half measures" in the eyes of Warfish.   It's just kind of baffling to me to consider that scenario I just described as a failure because they didnt trade Jamal.

 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make here is?  If you support retaining Adams, simply say so.

1. I think we can get "reasonable compensation" for Adams.  Not hyperbolic compensation (which many Jets fans will demand, of course), but reasonable.  A 2020 #1 and another 4/5 mid-round pick in 2020 or perhaps a higher pick in 2021.  

2. Getting 3-4 new starter quality O-linemen, a #1 WR, a #3 WR, a #1 RB (Bell will not be back IMO, nor should he be) is going to cost.  Alot.  More than just FA $$$ and our existing picks can provide.  Moving Adams and Bell is a requirement IMO.

3. Bell, mentioned above, is a poor fit here, I don't think he likes it here, and I don't think Gase wants him here.  He's too expensive for what we're getting and where we are.  He should be moved for picks.

4. Anderson will not give us a home town discount, and he is simply not, in any universe, worth #1 WR money, which he will demand.  He will be allowed to leave, and will need replaced.  The only starter-quality WR we have who will/should be back in Crowder, the slot/#2. 

Doing less is a half measure.  We're back in full rebuild mode, sadly.  I didn't want to be here, but here we are.  It's time to tear this down, and rebuild it up the right way, with a focus on Sam Darnold first and above all else, and building a wall in front of him, and weapons for him to use at appropriate prices and scheme fits.

I'm not making a point, just trying to understand yours.  Well, I guess I am making a point.  I think you can do one, without having to do the other.  

If Douglas is effectively able to build the offense via draft and FA but not able to move Adams for whatever reason, I think it's a little bit ridiculous to say that he "stood pat" or "took half measures".

 

[Sonny Werblin]

I still don’t get why teams spend so much time and money preparing for the draft. Give me two weeks before the draft to read up on a teams needs and various draft evaluations, and a split screen TV tuned to ESPN and the NFL network for the draft and i guarantee i can put together a draft that will be graded as at least a B. 

[section314]

2 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I still don’t get why teams spend so much time and money preparing for the draft. Give me two weeks before the draft to read up on a teams needs and various draft evaluations, and a split screen TV tuned to ESPN and the NFL network for the draft and i guarantee i can put together a draft that will be graded as at least a B. 

I have to say, I bet you're right.

[Beerfish]

I'll know all I have to know about Douglas after his 1st draft.  Even before we see if his payers are good or not.  His positional value picks and addressing needs vs value right off the hop will be telling.

[genot]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

You tell me which quality players he drafted, and I'll tell you why you're wrong. 

He wholly, categorically and completely blew it.  Darnold is the only silver dollar and a door mat could have made that pick. That's like telling me I deserve credit for a bedding a lady who was paid to be there. 

Yea. they all stink. Herndon, Maye, Adams, Fatuski, Austin. Jjenfins, Edwards, We'll talk about more, once you convince me they suck

[varjet]

This is the hopeful way I am looking at the next stage of Joe Douglas's tenure as Jets GM.

• Under Mac, Mac was really the guy, with some others working under him that do not appear to be working now.   The Texans drafted ok while Mac was Director of College Scouting.  He was not GM.
• The Eagles last two drafts do not look that hot, but Douglas worked with several teams that have drafted historically well.  Most importantly to me, JD has surrounded himself with others with successful track records, and it is my sincere hope that the group of them putting their heads together can come up with better players than Mac did.  I don't think that is unreasonable.
• Now, JD's waste of $8mm on Kalil (which could have been carried forward to this year) and his mismanagement of the kicker situation were not good signs.  He appears to have picked up some decent scrap heap players.   

So I am willing to optimistically but with good reason give JD the benefit of the doubt and hope he can improve the roster for this team.  Much of that will require better training and coaching the players on the roster.  

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, genot said:

Quarterbacks don't grow on trees. Petty as a 4th rounder was worth taking a flyer on. great arm, good size, just terribly inaccurate. Forget about Watson and Mahomes, who else should he have drafted at that position before Darnold?????Im sure you'll have an answer. That's because we're all analyzing everything after the fact. That's easy

Who I would have drafted is irrelevant.  In his first four seasons he went into them with Ryan Fitzpatrick or Josh McCown at QB.  That is unconscionable.  Before, during and after, I complained about it.  Now you are going to give me hindsight is 20-20? GTFO.