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Huge game for the Steelers versus the Jets


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This is a tough one.
On one hand draft position matters a lot.
On the other hand I would like nothing better than to beat the Steelers and put them in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.  I think Tomlin is immensely overrated by the football community and would like to see this 'coach of the year!' nonsense stop.


He has a SB win, never a losing record, and a team on its 3rd QB at 8-6. Immensely overrated


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17 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

This is a tough one.

On one hand draft position matters a lot.

On the other hand I would like nothing better than to beat the Steelers and put them in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.  I think Tomlin is immensely overrated by the football community and would like to see this 'coach of the year!' nonsense stop.

Tomlin is a good coach, but I agree about the coach of the year stuff being a bit much 

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30 minutes ago, jeTMAC said:

8-6 Steelers own the number 6 seed over the 8-6 Titans. I think Tennessee Titans will get in over the Steelers..jmo... The Titans host the Saints on Sunday.. 

This week might decide it.

Steelers beat us handily.  Saints beat Tenn.

Steelers go into the final week 1 game up on Tenn.  where both teams lose (Tenn. to Texans, Steelers to Ravens).

It would be VERY pleasing, however, to keep the Steelers out of the playoffs.

 

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15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Draft position has very little impact.  It’s a crap shoot.  
 

The guy at 12 has just as good a chance as the guy we would get 8. 
 

play to win. 

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

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12 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


He has a SB win, never a losing record, and a team on its 3rd QB at 8-6. Immensely overrated emoji849.png


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

was never really a fan of him.  didn't like the whole "tripping" incident.  but - with how he did this year (no bell, no AB, no big ben) and a back up qb.  it's impressive.  

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29 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

Relax mate.  Draft position outside the top few picks IS mostly irrelevant.  8, 12, 14, we'll have a great shot at a 10-year Pro......

....IF our GM and his team doesn't suck at talent evaluation and prioritization.

Our problem these past what, 20 years, is poor GM's making poor choices with poor prioritization.

If Douglas is the same, it won't matter if we pick 31 overall, just look at the guy we picked last year who did a total of piss and all this year.

Rooting for your team to lose in cancerous, it's not good for us.  

Just relax, let it go, and worry about the draft when we get to the draft.  Nothing good comes of worrying about it now.

 

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14 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

 


He has a SB win, never a losing record, and a team on its 3rd QB at 8-6. Immensely overrated emoji849.png


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

He walked into a team that was built and had just drafted Ben Rothlisburger.

His gm got him the QB, the oline, the D players and guys like Brown and Bell.  Consistently buildss the oline and pass rushers

If you want to heap praise on anyone it is the gm and scouting dept.

No one talks about Kevin Colbert.

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4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

McCagnan and Idzik are no longer GMs because they couldn't pick any players on Day 2 or 3 of the draft.   That has very little to do with where you pick in the first round.

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I look at these last two games somewhat pessimistically and simply.

Keep Darnold healthy, and get a draft pick high enough to not require signing Beachum again. 

I don't think Beachum is signing after the draft.  That decision needs to be made before the draft.

Or maybe we just sign him, cut Winters, and if we can draft an LT we do that too. 

My guess is that a rookie LT does not start 16 games anyway.  

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16 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

McCagnon and Idzik had a flawed 1st round strategy.  Their problem wasn't necessarily the player they took it was the position in which they took him.  

Continuing to take interior defensive players, DL, MLB, Safeties - in today's NFL is beyond idiotic - it's actually mind boggling.  In many case like Adams or even Leo, Mo and Sheldon - we landed solid football players - just those positions simply don't have nearly the same impact on the game as a DE, WR, OT, OLB or CB.  

While I don't have the time nor the inclination to do the research I am quite confident if you looked at the #8 pick vs. the number 12 pick over the past 20 years my guess is you will see a very similar success rate.

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Relax mate.  Draft position outside the top few picks IS mostly irrelevant.  8, 12, 14, we'll have a great shot at a 10-year Pro......

....IF our GM and his team doesn't suck and talent evaluation and prioritization.

Our problem these past what, 20 years, is poor GM's making poor choices with poor prioritization.

If Douglas is the same, it won't matter if we pick 31 overall, just look at the guy we picked last year who did a total of piss and all this year.

Rooting for your team to lose in cancerous, it's not good for us.  

Just relax, let it go, and worry about the draft when we get to the draft.  Nothing good comes of worrying about it now.

 

This is nonsense as well.

This is what leads to taking the best DT or the best safety.

Using the Jets awful awful gms as an excuse as to why the draft doesn't matter is bizarre to say the least.

Lets look at our one great draft,  2006  Drop a few spots ans there is no DBrick, drop a few spots and there is no mangold.

In our last 8 years we have had seasons of 6,4,5,4,5,5 8 and 10 wins.

No playoffs.  The feeble win  or two at the end of some of these years has done nothing to establish a winning culture but it has moved the team down i draft ranking eliminating trade downs along the way,

Everyone cheers for the team come game day, you just have to look at the game day threads. 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

You fire guys like Mac and Idzik because they’re incompetent, you hire Joe Douglas hoping he can find football players outside of the top six. If JD is good at drafting, then draft position means less, not more. 

And I’d, personally, feel a lot better about the Jets next year if they finish this season with a couple wins against winning teams and picking 13th, instead of losing the next two and picking 8th. 

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4 minutes ago, slats said:

You fire guys like Mac and Idzik because they’re incompetent, you hire Joe Douglas hoping he can find football players outside of the top six. If JD is good at drafting, then draft position means less, not more. 

And I’d, personally, feel a lot better about the Jets next year if they finish this season with a couple wins against winning teams and picking 13th, instead of losing the next two and picking 8th. 

all you gotta do is look at the top 10 picks for the last 10 years to see how many busts there are...

to know that position does not equal opportunity in a strictly equivalent way

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5 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

This is nonsense as well.

This is what leads to taking the best DT or the best safety.

Using the Jets awful awful gms as an excuse as to why the draft doesn't matter is bizarre to say the least.

Lets look at our one great draft,  2006  Drop a few spots ans there is no DBrick, drop a few spots and there is no mangold.

In our last 8 years we have had seasons of 6,4,5,4,5,5 8 and 10 wins.

No playoffs.  The feeble win  or two at the end of some of these years has done nothing to establish a winning culture but it has moved the team down i draft ranking eliminating trade downs along the way,

Everyone cheers for the team come game day, you just have to look at the game day threads. 

 

 

 

But then look at this year - if we were a few spots down - and some other team took "The Best Player in the draft" then Josh Allen dropped to us - 

Who got the better player?

It goes both ways.

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Robbie was sent him with the flu and Cable was has a calf injury.  For us to win having both those guy is huge.  Not that Cable is good but for that OL onlg functioning up to a certain point.  Well.  Let's hope that Qvale can step in.

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15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

This is nonsense as well.

This is what leads to taking the best DT or the best safety.

Nope.  Having a "BAP Regardless of Position" draft philosophy leads to drafting the DT's and Safeties.  

15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Using the Jets awful awful gms as an excuse as to why the draft doesn't matter is bizarre to say the least.

No one is saying "the draft doesn't matter".  It matters a ton.

We're telling you that the theoretical difference between picks 8 and 10, or 10 and 12, is minimal.  It will not remove the Jets potential to draft 10-year Pro-starters in those slots.

Who is picking, and who we pick is important.  Picking 11th instead of 12th is not that important.  

15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Lets look at our one great draft,  2006  Drop a few spots ans there is no DBrick, drop a few spots and there is no mangold.

You simply don't know that.  What happened happened.  Change any variable, and all the variables change.  We drop  say, two spots, there is no certainty the picks ahead of us take our guys, they may not have needed O-line, we may have picked other guys just as good, etc, etc, etc.

15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

In our last 8 years we have had seasons of 6,4,5,4,5,5 8 and 10 wins.

Because we draft bad players.  

This counters your own position, we've had exceptional draft position for years now.  Yet here we are.

If where you picked mattered more than who did the picking, we'd be a contender today.

15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No playoffs.  The feeble win  or two at the end of some of these years has done nothing to establish a winning culture but it has moved the team down i draft ranking eliminating trade downs along the way,

Everyone cheers for the team come game day, you just have to look at the game day threads. 

As they should, we're fans.  

Do as you wish my friend, I just hate to see you all eaten up over draft position, there is almost nothing as silly as that in my book.  What will be will be.  Why worry about it now, it's not like you can make them lose, lol.    

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40 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

No, 100% totally incorrect.  Draft position matters a great deal.

No it is not a crap shoot.  Those that say this should be in full support of Mike McCaganan just having bad luck in the crap shoot.

If it is a crap shoo then McCagnan and  idzik are just unlucky.  Hiring a guy in Douglas is meaningless because it is all a crap shoot.

What we can't trade down because we draft so low?  Well, just a crap shoot.

 

The difference between 8 and 12 is a crap shoot and stats back that up

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54 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Tomlin is a good coach, but I agree about the coach of the year stuff being a bit much 

There was something about a Jet player single handedly preventing the Jets being 0-16...

player of the year?

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1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

This is a tough one.

On one hand draft position matters a lot.

On the other hand I would like nothing better than to beat the Steelers and put them in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.  I think Tomlin is immensely overrated by the football community and would like to see this 'coach of the year!' nonsense stop.

Gase lost his starting Qb and gave up on even trying. Tomlin looks like he's going to make the playoffs with his...not saying he should even be in consideration for coach of the year seems more like bias than analysis of the situation. 

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52 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

This is a tough one.

On one hand draft position matters a lot.

On the other hand I would like nothing better than to beat the Steelers and put them in jeopardy of missing the playoffs.  I think Tomlin is immensely overrated by the football community and would like to see this 'coach of the year!' nonsense stop.

Considering how he's been able to handle the psycho's and malcontents on the Steelers over the years and got production out of them when nobody else could (Mike Wallace, Rashard Mendenhall, LeVeon Bell, Antonio Brown, Santonio Holmes. Martavious Bryant to name a few), hes never had a losing season and has been to two Super Bowls (winning one) but would have been to more if not for the Cheatriots.   How can you not consider him to be one of the top 10 coaches in the league?   How do you rank the HCs?

 

1.  Bill Belichick - Crime pay$!

2.  Sean Payton - consistently offensively creative.  The Saints, seemingly, are always fired up.

3.  Andy Reid - has anyone been a better motivator or consistent winner (not having post season success is a huge strike against him tho).

4.  John Harbaugh - Roster turnover has been constant - as has the winning.

5.  Kyle Shanahan - very creative, has a very young team and has them focused (except last week) and dominate.

6.  Pete Carroll - consistent winner, great motivator, forever plagued by occasional brain farts.

7.  Mike Tomlin - Great motivator, consistent winner, if he had an avg backup QB he could have had a deep playoff run this season.

8.  Doug Pederson - he has earned the right to be cocky.

9.  Sean McVay -  If only he had a QB that didnt need to wear a diaper and take xanex on gameday....

10.  Mike Zimmer - has done an amazing job this year of keeping the team together and focused amidst early season turmoil.

11. Bill O'Brien - The Texans have always played to their potential, but not exceeded it.

12.  Sean McDermott - Can't deny what he's accomplished thus far with the Bills - created an elite D and wins with an erratic QB.

13.  Brian Flores - He really scares me - he may become a great one - look what he has done with a roster full of UFAs and rejects.

14.  Kliff Kingsbury - Has made Kyler Murray look better than I thought he could be, the roster is not good and most of his losses have been to elite teams.

15.  Mike Vrabel - his team has taken on his tough guy persona, Mariota is a bust who held him back, Tannenhill is better but with a real franchise QB the Titans could be great.

16.  Bruce Arians - Welp, he couldn't fix Winston. aside from one great year with Carson Palmer what has he accomplished?

17.  Matt LaFleur - seems to have a great relationship with Rodgers, the D has been disappointed, but has Mike Pettine ever been good?

18. Doug Marrone - He really should be higher up on the list, I believe Coughlin is to blame for much of the teams failures.  The bad QB play is due to bad QBs.  This is the second time Foles has Folded on teams not named the Eagles.

19.  Dan Quinn - have to admire how the team has competed in recent weeks, dont forget he did get to a Super Bowl.

20.  Frank Reich - If he had good "Luck" he would be more successful.  Still a disappointing performance for a team with as good as a D, OL and RB as they have.

21.  John Gruden - Did he ruin David Carr?

22.  Jason Garrett - Has anyone done less with more?

23.  Matt Nagy - Cant blame him for being stuck with an awful QB - but the Bears really crumbled this year.

24.  Matt Patricia - Cant blame him for Stafford's injury this season, expected more from the D tho.

25.  Adam Gase - the Jets roster is awful, but he hasn't made things better - I give Joe Vitt and Gregg Williams credit for keeping the team motivated.

26.  Anthony Lynn - as much credit he deserves for last season is as much blame he deserves for this season.  Phillip Rivers is old but most of the losses were not his fault.

27.  Zac Taylor - cant really judge him yet - this team was destined to tank, Amazing they actually won a game (albeit it was against the Jets).

28. Pat Shurmur - The Giants roster is full of holes, but so are Shurmur's game plans.

29.  Freddie Kitchens - The offense stinks in spite of being loaded, the defense has a huge disappointment as well.  He simply was not up for the task.

30. Vic Fangio - such an up and down season - bounces from horrific to decent.

31 and 32 no votes for Fewell and Callahan.

  

 

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Not the end all, but one benefit of 12 instead of 8 is it makes the 5th year option less of a gamble for a borderline player.

It's also more than just that one time $5MM or whatever differential. It also affects extending the player early (or anyway, it can) since the 5th year option $ kinda becomes the baseline amount for any discussion talks. It makes it easier to keep your good players without hampering your ability to sign (or pay more for) others. 

Look at a player like Mo. In the preseason of 2014 (maybe even 2015's preseason as well), a Mo extension would have looked like about $10MM. Another season under his belt, with 12 sacks and a pro bowl selection, plus getting franchise tagged at $16MM for the upcoming year. That FT number then became the new floor for a contract extension. It might have benefitted us in another way: we don't know that Mo would have mailed it in if his contract wasn't for 60-70% more per season, and he'd have to keep from getting cut into year 4 to make the same $ he was guaranteed on day 1 on the contract he ultimately got.

No it's not a reason to move down for a lesser prospect, but it is a benefit.

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