So I Just Asked Damien Woody

[MichaelScott]

I love Woody, what a guy to give you such a thought out, insightful answer to your question ?

In all seriousness, pretty cool of him to reply at all. Woody always seemed like a great guy. 

[estang74]

13 hours ago, SoFlaJets said:

The only "great" coaching I saw from the 2019 Jets was from Greg Williams and his staff. What they did with that ragtag group of late-rounders and UDFA's was nothing short of, well... miraculous is too strong of a word, but you get what I mean.

Did you not watch the special teams? Top 5 unit this season. Kick coverage was beyond solid.

[FidelioJet]

17 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

If Gase actually turns the offense around next year I think some of you will spontaneously combust.  Their are people who have staked their fandom on hating him.

Everyone will be happy.  But here’s the reality.  There is literally nowhere to go but up. Let’s say we load up on talent, hit on the draft pick - maybe we get to 20th in the league.  From everything I’ve seen - Gase, at best, is an below average OC.  Unfortunately winning Super Bowls require superior coaching as well talent.  
 

Winning super bowls is the goal. 

[NYJ1]

There's no doubt in my mind, the NYJ in 2019 is the very worst OL I've ever seen on an NFL field with no exceptions. Like I've posted before the Jets could devote ALL of their off-season resources to rebuilding the OL and I would be fine with it. It may sound crazy but if the board fell right it would certainly be possible? I also firmly believe that would allow the Jets offense to make the biggest jump in the win column?

[Warfish]

Quote

There's no doubt in my mind, the NYJ in 2019 is the very worst OL I've ever seen on an NFL field with no exceptions.

Looking at Pro Football References "Advanced Passing" stats related to QB's Being Pressured:

Sam Darnold was ranked:

18th most in times Sacked (33). #1 was Murray in AZ at 48 times sacked.

13th most in Blitz's faced (166).  #1 was Winston in Tampa with 241.

6th most in Hurries (63).  #1 was Wilson in Seattle with 71.

13th most in "Hits while Passing" (39).  #1 was Jones with the NYG with 66.

32nd in Scrambles, i.e. runs on designed pass plays (8).  #1 was Minshew in Jax with 49.

17th in Average Time in Pocket Before Hit or Pass (2.5 sec).  "Worst" was 7 guys at 2.3 sec, incluidng Brees.  Misleading stat as fast throwers use less time and look like they're under pressure when they're not, stat wise.

Evaluate these numbers as you like, but I think it's a stretch to say we had the worst O-line ever.  Was it good, lol, nope.  Does it need upgraded, absolutely, as much as possible.  But it wasn't even the worst O-line in the NFL this year, much less ever.  By year's end it was basicly middle of the pack in many ways (a big part of that was the bad teams we played late, admittedly).

Look at Tampa with Winston.  Sacked 47 times (#2 worst), Blitzed 241 times (#1 worst), Hurried 62 times (1 less than Darnold, 7th worst), Hit while Passing 54 times (7th worst), Scrambled 31 times (8th most), and the same 2.5 sec. to throw or be hit as Darnold.

Now, there is ALOT of stuff living in between and around these numbers that the pure numbers do not tell.  None of these stats can or should be taken at face value, and again, this is NOT a defense of our line.  But I think the "worst in NFL history" memes is a bit of a deflection from other issues we faced this year, and not an accurate reflection of reality.  There are definitely worst lines than ours, even in 2019.  

 

 

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Looking at Pro Football References "Advanced Passing" stats related to QB's Being Pressured:

Sam Darnold was ranked:

18th most in times Sacked (33). #1 was Murray in AZ at 48 times sacked.

13th most in Blitz's faced (166).  #1 was Winston in Tampa with 241.

6th most in Hurries (63).  #1 was Wilson in Seattle with 71.

13th most in "Hits while Passing" (39).  #1 was Jones with the NYG with 66.

32nd in Scrambles, i.e. runs on designed pass plays (8).  #1 was Minshew in Jax with 49.

17th in Average Time in Pocket Before Hit or Pass (2.5 sec).  "Worst" was 7 guys at 2.3 sec, incluidng Brees.  Misleading stat as fast throwers use less time and look like they're under pressure when they're not, stat wise.

Evaluate these numbers as you like, but I think it's a stretch to say we had the worst O-line ever.  Was it good, lol, nope.  Does it need upgraded, absolutely, as much as possible.  But it wasn't even the worst O-line in the NFL this year, much less ever.  By year's end it was basicly middle of the pack in many ways (a big part of that was the bad teams we played late, admittedly).

Look at Tampa with Winston.  Sacked 47 times (#2 worst), Blitzed 241 times (#1 worst), Hurried 62 times (1 less than Darnold, 7th worst), Hit while Passing 54 times (7th worst), Scrambled 31 times (8th most), and the same 2.5 sec. to throw or be hit as Darnold.

Now, there is ALOT of stuff living in between and around these numbers that the pure numbers do not tell.  None of these stats can or should be taken at face value, and again, this is NOT a defense of our line.  But I think the "worst in NFL history" memes is a bit of a deflection from other issues we faced this year, and not an accurate reflection of reality.  There are definitely worst lines than ours, even in 2019.  

 

 

There is a lot more to take into account when looking at these numbers.  Typically, your eyes can determine what good and bad.

You have to take into account the running game numbers and more importantly the play calling that required the Jets to be MUCH more conservative in the routes we run, protection scheme’s etc...

Now, I can’t speak for the other teams but my guess is they were much more aggressive in their play calling - allowing for more pressure.  

This line was awful and there’s no way around that.

[CrazyCarl40]

Friendly reminder it took injuries to Kalil and Winters before they were replaced with better players by the offensive genius head coach. 

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

There is a lot more to take into account when looking at these numbers.

Completely agree.

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 Typically, your eyes can determine what good and bad.

To some degree, sure.  But bias is impossible to ignore, agendas exist like it or not, and people are often desperate to excuse/explain why "their guy" doesn't do well and want to find scapegoats to blame for it.  Darnold's poor performance in 2019 overall isn't his fault, it's the line, the recievers, the injuries, the coach, the rushers, etc, etc, etc.

Sad truth is, it's also Darnold.  But few want to hear that, hence the hyperbole "worst O-line ever".  I watched games of some of the other horrible O-lines this year, and yup, they were just as horrible or worse than what I saw from the Jets, especially the jets in the second half of the season.

I'll repeat, this isn't a defense of the line.  It's bad, it needs upgraded in a minimum of four of the five positions, and was a huge barrier to being a good team in 2019.  I'm on record calling repeatedly for us to draft three O-linemen and FA two more minimum this coming off-season, so clearly, not a fan of the 2019 Jets line.    

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Now, I can’t speak for the other teams but my guess is......

I wouldn't guess.  And I'd wager most Jets Fans watched only small amounts of any other single team's O-line play in 2019.  I wouldn't, for example, expect a Jets Fan to be intimately familiar (even for the "eye test") with the Tampa Bay O-line.  But by almost every metric, it was worse than ours.  As I often say, at some point you are what your metrics say you are.

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This line was awful and there’s no way around that.

Agreed.

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Friendly reminder it took injuries to Kalil and Winters before they were replaced with better players by the offensive genius head coach. 

A valid point to make.  It's impossible not to see that the line, bad as it was, improved late once an entirely different group was in.

Now, some of that clearly was a materially low quality of opponents.

But some of that was, I would wager, the wrong guys starting over guys that should have been starting.  Khalil over Harrison is a great example of that.

I don't think Gase managed the O-line well in 2019.  

[JustInFudge]

21 hours ago, Larz said:

And yet Powell seemed to produce more consistently than bell 

the combination of gase , bell and the line was what did it in

And yet, Powell had the worst season of his career.  He averaged a whooping .6 ypc more than Bell.  

Oh hey guess what, Montgomery had the worst season of his career too and averaged the same ypc as Bell.

But I'm sure this all a random coincidence and Bell is just a bad Football player.

 

 

[JustInFudge]

20 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

There is a lot more to take into account when looking at these numbers.  Typically, your eyes can determine what good and bad.

You have to take into account the running game numbers and more importantly the play calling that required the Jets to be MUCH more conservative in the routes we run, protection scheme’s etc...

Now, I can’t speak for the other teams but my guess is they were much more aggressive in their play calling - allowing for more pressure.  

This line was awful and there’s no way around that.

Damien Woody, a multiple probowler at numerous positions on the OL in the NFL says this is the worst run blocking OL he's ever seen but some dudes on the interwebz disagree. 

I wonder who has a little more credibility here? 

[Dcat]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

And yet, Powell had the worst season of his career.  He averaged a whooping .6 ypc more than Bell.  

Oh hey guess what, Montgomery had the worst season of his career too and averaged the same ypc as Bell.

But I'm sure this all a random coincidence and Bell is just a bad Football player.

 

 

The narrative on this board is that Powell was great when he was out there and Bell sucked.   Untrue. Powell sucked because the OL sucked.  The only reason his YPC  would be 1/2 yard higher than Bell's is that defenses set up for him differently and his style is not to hesitate like Bell.  Powell night "look" better to the layperson's eyes because he doesn't hesitate and show patience at the line like Bell. 

Really people... can we stop with the nonsense that Powell out-performed Bell so we should dump Bell?  Pretty please?  It makes this board look really stupid.  Really really stupid.

 

[Losmeister]

I dont think anyone said Powell was great. did they?

[SAR I]

13 hours ago, Warfish said:

"Did Really Well" now = "Worst Offense in NFL by Far".

It's all about setting expectations as low as possible, I guess.

Run the offensive numbers for the last 8 games.  Let's see what that looks like.  We had an actual NFL quarterback for all 8 games and the second-best record in the NFL in that span, so methinks the offensive production would be up a bit.

SAR I

[SAR I]

11 hours ago, estang74 said:

Did you not watch the special teams? Top 5 unit this season. Kick coverage was beyond solid.

Most injured team in the NFL.

Top 5 special teams.

Top 10 defense.

6-2 record down the stretch.

But Adam Gase sucks.

You can't make this stuff up.

SAR I

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

5 minutes ago, SAR I said:

But Adam Gase sucks.

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Run the offensive numbers for the last 8 games.

Too bad the NFL plays 16 games each year, and not all against the 2019 Washington Redskins, NY Giants, Miami Dolphins, eh?

Also cherry picking is bad.  It's worse when it's literally the exact same "but look at the last x games" meme we heard at the end of 2018.

Spin it as much as you feel needed, it'll forever be the worst Offense in the NFL in 2019.

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Most injured team in the NFL.

The Redskins were the most injured team in the NFL in 2019.

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Top 5 special teams.

Top 10 defense.

Neither of which Adam Gase coached.

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

6-2 record down the stretch.

32nd Ranked Offense in the NFL, 1-7 start, 7-9 finish, his third year in a row with bottom-of-NFL Offensive rankings and losing seasons.

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

But Adam Gase sucks.

Sucks is subjective.

He led the worst Offense in the NFL, an objective, factual statement.

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

You can't make this stuff up.

SAR I

Oh I think you make plenty of stuff up SAR.

[Smashmouth]

On 1/1/2020 at 11:30 AM, Dcat said:

Gase's offense truly sucked.  In every possible way.  Injuries and bad personnel of course are a heavy influence, but that's not the only reason.  It's Gase too.  I'll give him one more year in my mind because of all those reas-cuses mentioned before. 

I was rewinding thru some of the games yesterday and today.  His play calling is atrocious.  Almost always, with rare exceptions.  He doesn't utilize his assets correctly (just like in Miami, BTW) And it is a different kind of bad from what we had with Schottenheimer or Hackett.  I also watched Bell.   People blaming Bell for it all are talking out of their asses.  Bell needs a new line to do what he does best... that is true.  But Gase didn't use him as a pass catcher, which was entirely plausible and possible this season, but NEVER employed early on and rarely later.  Gase's offensive plan took away half of Bell's game.  He could very well be bat-sht crazy.  Sorry. 

You are right Gase did not utilize Bell the way he should have ....Bell is a good runner (not great but good) but he is an incredible pass catcher and we really did not see him lined up in pass catching situations (slot, out wide) until late in the season and even then he was not targeted much.

This team was also horrific at selling the Screen it seemed teams always knew when it was coming and our RB's never had a chance. In that regard I'm not sure if it was poor execution that led to teams reading our screens or bad play design tipping them off. I don't think Darnold is particularly good at selling the screen so there's that as well.

What made Bell a good runner with the Steelers was that they utilized him well in the passing game which opened things up for him as a runner but at times he's way too patient. I don't mind him being patient in the open field but at the point of attack when he should be just hitting the hole hard kind of Like Powell does, Bell lingers and things close up quick. Bell IMHO needs to be coached as to when to use his abilities and patience and when not too and just burst with the instinct and vision I don't only blame Gase and that buffoon Loggins I blame the RB coach as well.

[Smashmouth]

15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Too bad the NFL plays 16 games each year, and not all against the 2019 Washington Redskins, NY Giants, Miami Dolphins, eh?

Also cherry picking is bad.  It's worse when it's literally the exact same "but look at the last x games" meme we heard at the end of 2018.

Spin it as much as you feel needed, it'll forever be the worst Offense in the NFL in 2019.

 

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The Redskins were the most injured team in the NFL in 2019.

Neither of which Adam Gase coached.

32nd Ranked Offense in the NFL, 1-7 start, 7-9 finish, his third year in a row with bottom-of-NFL Offensive rankings and losing seasons.

Sucks is subjective.

He led the worst Offense in the NFL, an objective, factual statement.

Oh I think you make plenty of stuff up SAR.

There are 16 games in a season but its pretty well documented, most teams, or the bigger percentage of teams with entirely new coaching staffs don't start to click until mid season, sometimes not even until the next season (see 49er's). The fact this team was learning an entirely new system and dealing with a ridiculous amount of injuries as well including losing their starting QB who was replaced by players who should not even be in the NFL is very telling. Just as telling is the fact we went 6-2 down the stretch beating 2 teams that were in the running for playoff spots.

SAR I is optimistic while others are slitting wrists when it comes to Gase. I'm not a big fan of the Gase Hire but he pulled this team together and avoided a complete catastrophe in the process. So he's not "making sh*t up" he's making total sense  and you are not seeing the fact this team improved by a large margin while still dealing with an OL that was a mess in every sense of the word and both TE's hurt and a WR corp that ranks among the worst in the NFL.

Bottom line is the Jets moved in the right direction and while some may be butt hurt over a lost season there are plenty of positives to take from where this team started as opposed to where they finished. Basing this season on the "16 game" argument when we all knew there was probably not a chance for the playoffs and shrugging off the direction this team was going is ridiculous.

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, Losmeister said:

I dont think anyone said Powell was great. did they?

it was said by more than one to compare Powell's performance to Bell's and that because Powell "looked" better and averaged ,5 yd more per carry, that proved whatever stupid thing they were trying to prove about Bell sucking.  

It's not important.  

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Too bad the NFL plays 16 games each year, and not all against the 2019 Washington Redskins, NY Giants, Miami Dolphins, eh?

Also cherry picking is bad.  It's worse when it's literally the exact same "but look at the last x games" meme we heard at the end of 2018.

Spin it as much as you feel needed, it'll forever be the worst Offense in the NFL in 2019.

Bills
Browns
Patriots
Eagles

We didn't have an NFL caliber quarterback in those games.  Darnold was hospitalized on Bills Sunday, the rest was some guy bagging groceries, isn't even in the league.

Since that 0-4 start, the Jets are 7-5.  Run those numbers.  That's a closer barometer to what our real offensive performance was even with the crazy injuries to the OL, TE, WR, and on and on.

This wasn't a typical season.  So we need to look at atypical numbers.  That's only if you want the truth, only if you want to see what we really are building on.  Putting in those first four games is useless, it's bad data, it's fake news.

SAR I

[joewilly12]

Just now, SAR I said:

We didn't have an NFL caliber quarterback in those games.  Darnold was hospitalized on Bills Sunday, the rest was some guy bagging groceries, isn't even in the league.

I honestly would not let Luke Falk bag my groceries. 

joewilly12 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

...... it's fake news.

SAR I

There is definitely something fake around here, that's for sure.

No worries, I'm sure with all your verbal fellating of Gase, that we expect the great job do'in' offensive genius will have the Jets winning 10 or more games next year behind a top 10 offense, and Darnold at 62%+ completion rate, 4,000+ yards passing and a 26 (or more) to 13 (or less) TD:INT ratio next year then.  i.e. an average production for a full 16 game starting QB these days.

I look forward to it.  See you then.  

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, joewilly12 said:

I honestly would not let Luke Falk bag my groceries. 

joewilly12 

And yet Falk, Siemian and Fales were all the handpicked choices of Coach Gase.

[SAR I]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

There is definitely something fake around here, that's for sure.

No worries, I'm sure with all your verbal fellating of Gase, that we expect the great job do'in' offensive genius will have the Jets winning 10 or more games next year behind a top 10 offense, and Darnold at 62%+ completion rate, 4,000+ yards passing and a 26 (or more) to 13 (or less) TD:INT ratio next year then.  i.e. an average production for a full 16 game starting QB these days.

I look forward to it.  See you then.  

Run the numbers for the 6-2 team finish and the 7-5 Darnold finish, let's see what those subsets look like.

Why wouldn't we?  Why wouldn't we want to look at NFL offensive rankings when we had an NFL quarterback?  You know, the one we're building our whole team around. 

Stats with Luke Falk?  What does that have to do with potential in 2020?  If you're trying to skew things to say that with a practice squad quarterback Dowell Logains is a bad OC, don't bother, I agree.

SAR I

[SAR I]

18 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And yet Falk, Siemian and Fales were all the handpicked choices of Coach Gase.

If Trevor Siemian was healthy and went 0-3 against the Browns, Patriots, and Eagles I would have been disappointed in Dowell Loggains.  But he wasn't.  When Luke Falk goes in, those are automatic losses.

SAR I

[lounap23]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:02 AM, JiF said:

So true.  Continuity on the line is huge.  Which is scary about next season a bit.  You’re hypothetically breaking in a brand new line with dudes who have never played together. 

11 players and 8 different OL combinations.   But I love the narrative from some that Bell has no burst and lost a step.  

[SAR I]

6 minutes ago, lounap23 said:

11 players and 8 different OL combinations.   But I love the narrative from some that Bell has no burst and lost a step.  

The OL was terrible.  No argument.

But when Powell was put in there he popped through the line consistently whereas Bell struggled to twist and stretch to get plus yardage.

SAR I

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

The OL was terrible.  No argument.

But when Powell was put in there he popped through the line consistently whereas Bell struggled to twist and stretch to get plus yardage.

SAR I

Powell has pretty much only knows having a poor Jets OL for his entire career. He definitely knows how to make the most of things with a bad line. 

[SAR I]

4 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Powell has pretty much only knows having a poor Jets OL for his entire career. He definitely knows how to make the most of things with a bad line. 

If I didn't know either player and I saw 26 and 29 out there, I'd tell you 29 is a better running back.

SAR I

[CTM]

7 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

There is a lot more to take into account when looking at these numbers.  Typically, your eyes can determine what good and bad.

Eyes of Jets fans as it relates to league wide differences in OL play is not even in the realm of reliability.

[rangerous]

On 1/1/2020 at 11:39 AM, SoFlaJets said:

The only "great" coaching I saw from the 2019 Jets was from Greg Williams and his staff. What they did with that ragtag group of late-rounders and UDFA's was nothing short of, well... miraculous is too strong of a word, but you get what I mean.

that's not entirely true.  williams did a great job with the defense but that same defense lost a couple of leads and made some poor plays leading to td's down the stretch.  give gase some credit for getting the offense to score points and have some come from behind wins.

[Losmeister]

5 hours ago, Dcat said:

it was said by more than one to compare Powell's performance to Bell's and that because Powell "looked" better and averaged ,5 yd more per carry, that proved whatever stupid thing they were trying to prove about Bell sucking.  

It's not important.  

I always viewed is as a demonstration that bells style with our crap ol was a toxic cocktail

[rangerous]

6 hours ago, SAR I said:

Run the offensive numbers for the last 8 games.  Let's see what that looks like.  We had an actual NFL quarterback for all 8 games and the second-best record in the NFL in that span, so methinks the offensive production would be up a bit.

SAR I

i'd like to see someone take away the 3 or 4 worst offensive performances of the other teams and then compare them to the jets also losing their 3 or 4 worst games.  i'll bet they're ranking will be more in the mid twenties than 30's.