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Jetsfan80

The Jets passed on/failed to acquire 6 of the 8 remaining 2020 playoff QB's this past decade.

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30 minutes ago, JiF said:

This is so ridiculously offensive.  I mean I love me some dbutts but to put him as the most vocal draft Watson guy on the board is insulting.  I had to battle the entire board who was screaming and yelling at me that he's a 3rd round pick because mph blah blah blah blah for entire offseason as I said this was the easiest choice in the history of this franchise. 

I'm mad at you.

  

12 hours ago, CTM said:

In b4 jif butthurt over not being given watson credit 

 

29 minutes ago, JiF said:

damn it.  I'm that predictable?

 

LOL!  I'd like to say I did this purposefully.  But either way it had a great result.  

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46 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So what's your definition of a "running QB"?  Is it one that is "run first"?  I ask because Jackson has proven to be very effective as a passer, far better than a lot of people thought he'd be.  

dar.jpg

FWIW, Darnold throws for 100 yards per game more than Lamar Jackson does and Jackson rushes for 55 yards per game more than Darnold does.  Darnold generates 235 yards per game, Jackson generates 200.

Even if one ignores the vast gap of overall roster/coaching talent separating the Ravens from the Jets, the difference between the two QB's is that Jackson surprises defenses with his improv and gets cheap first downs with ease while Darnold requires playmaking receivers to do it in the air. 

Want to know what the Jets would look like with Lamar Jackson?  Just look at the Bills with Josh Allen.  Beats the weak teams, can't beat the good teams, eventually is going to get badly hurt rushing 10+ times a game.  Jackson and Allen are setting themselves up to be RGIII (devastating injury) or an average RB (run too much, hit too much, wore out).

SAR I

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4 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

You simply ignore everything else I wrote and just respond to the one line you can make an argument about. If you want to respond to the whole post, I'll be happy to talk about this. You can't  argue only with the parts you want. 

The truth is that the talent on the Jets is so far below anything on the other teams, you can't  make a comparison.  

When Sam has time to setup, look around and throw with his feet set, he make as good a pass as any QB. 

 

So does every other QB. These guys are pros for a reason. If everything is perfect, they can play. The QBs that can still play and make the playoffs when things aren’t perfect are the true great ones. That’s all I’m saying. 

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5 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Complain all you like at 1-7.

Be quiet and thankful at 6-2.

After the year these players and coaches were just put through, they deserve our respect and admiration.  A 6-2 finish is an amazing accomplishment considering the circumstances, and something that proved that we have a QB, HC, and locker room that are the complete opposites of what they were circa 2012-2017. 

This is a time to be happy.  Stop making yourselves miserable.  If you won't listen to reason, get some mood enhancers. 

SAR I

The circumstances were an immeasurably easy schedule against other teams in a equal or more disastrous mess as the Jets.  A career-incompetent of a head coach, whose sole success in his entire coaching career was standing on the sideline watching Peyton Manning call plays at the line, deserves absolutely no measure of praise whatsoever.  Particularly when the unit he is responsible for was even worse than last year, while the team was carried by the unit he has absolutely no involvement in.

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23 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Complain all you like at 1-7.

Be quiet and thankful at 6-2.

After the year these players and coaches were just put through, they deserve our respect and admiration.  A 6-2 finish is an amazing accomplishment considering the circumstances, and something that proved that we have a QB, HC, and locker room that are the complete opposites of what they were circa 2012-2017. 

This is a time to be happy.  Stop making yourselves miserable.  If you won't listen to reason, get some mood enhancers. 

SAR I

If this was a game of half-seasons, I would agree. It is not so I am not.

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14 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

You simply ignore everything else I wrote and just respond to the one line you can make an argument about. If you want to respond to the whole post, I'll be happy to talk about this. You can't  argue only with the parts you want. 

The truth is that the talent on the Jets is so far below anything on the other teams, you can't  make a comparison.  

When Sam has time to setup, look around and throw with his feet set, he make as good a pass as any QB. 

 

 

Of course we can.  Just watch them play.  Sam makes far more bad decisions than any of the QB's I've been talking about.  Hence why all available metrics suggest he's not good.  Improve his personnel and give him more time to throw, and he'll be about an average QB in this league but probably not elite.  He hasn't flashed enough to suggest elite on the level of Mahomes or even Watson. 

Watson had a bad OL too up until midway through this season, you'll recall.  He still won a ton of games with bad OL's.

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10 minutes ago, SAR I said:

dar.jpg

FWIW, Darnold throws for 100 yards per game more than Lamar Jackson does and Jackson rushes for 55 yards per game more than Darnold does.  Darnold generates 235 yards per game, Jackson generates 200.

Even if one ignores the vast gap of overall roster/coaching talent separating the Ravens from the Jets, the difference between the two QB's is that Jackson surprises defenses with his improv and gets cheap first downs with ease while Darnold requires playmaking receivers to do it in the air. 

Want to know what the Jets would look like with Lamar Jackson?  Just look at the Bills with Josh Allen.  Beats the weak teams, can't beat the good teams, eventually is going to get badly hurt rushing 10+ times a game.  Jackson and Allen are setting themselves up to be RGIII (devastating injury) or an average RB (run too much, hit too much, wore out).

 

Absurd.  Lamar's Ravens won @ Seattle 30-16.  Beat up on the Pats 37-20.  Destroyed the Texans 41-7.  Beat the 49ers 20-17.  The Rams 45-6. Beat the Bills 24-17 on the road.  Swept the Steelers.  Barely lost @ Kansas City 33-28.  

All Lamar DID this year was beat good teams.  Hence why they were the # 1 seed in the AFC.  

You're insane.  

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32 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You're right.  I'm totally not a real fan.  We all want those "back-half of the season of our dreams".  Not a Divisional Round playoff game.  

In August, you thought we'd go 7-9.

In October, we were sitting at 1-7.

Tell me again how 7-9 with a 6-2 finish didn't meet your expectations. 

Oh, wait.....let me apologize....you were the fan who had us at 13-3, beating the Patriots, and getting a bye, right?

SAR I

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5 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

One day we'll stop complaining about the QBs Macc passed on and concentrate on the one he drafted.

This is just getting whiney at this point

Indeed.  Any idea where I might be able to find a discussion of Sam Darnold?

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33 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

Fair point, but would you really expect me to pass up on the chance to voice my displeasure for the noodle?  It feels like an obligation at this point.  Especially after the grossness of seeing the reemergence of others posts in this thread trying to cast that year's Pitt pants-sh*tting in a positive light.

scapegoat.jpg

SAR I

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5 hours ago, jgb said:

When these points were brought up at the time, they were slammed as defeatistism and SOJF-ism. Let me ask: where exactly is this mythic Goldilocks zone where it is neither too early nor too late to criticize awful Jet decisions?:

I’m pretty sure you’re only allowed to offer your thoughts and prayers, right?

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34 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So we can't complain about 7-9 against arguably the league's easiest schedule?

Tell us all how to be fans again.  I dare you.  

Don't give me that schedule crap-  the Bills played the same schedule and the Patriots played the same schedule.  I don't see anyone taking away their playoff berths.  And the Bills were the healthiest team in the NFL and the Patriots are the Patriots.

6-2 finish was impressive.  If you can't take some joy from how the coaches and players performed in the back half of the season, you aren't a fan.  It's that simple.  That was a historically injured roster and a historically impressive finish.  No parade, but for a young team with many pieces to validate, a new culture to usher in, and a new playbook to master, this was a great season.

SAR I

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36 minutes ago, BrickzNY said:

You simply have too much faith in a man who’s simply hasn’t shown it yet. Is it that crazy to think maybe Sam Darnold just isn’t that good? Cause all we have on tape is two seasons of him being mostly bad, and sometimes good. That’s a rollercoaster ride the Jets could’ve avoided. Now we’re left praying Douglas gives Darnold all pro talent everywhere for him to be successful. Let’s hope he gets the job done. I’d rather Darnold elevate the guys he has, but it’s clear he’s not that guy.

If Darnold bombs next year and the Jets want to go get one of those running-around quarterbacks who gets cheap first downs and a cheap 10 wins, works for me.  Just have to win a Super Bowl before he's in a wheelchair.  So long as I get a hat and a t-shirt I'm good.

SAR I

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13 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Question - How well do you think any of them would do if they were on the Jets?

This.

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12 hours ago, Daddy Wang Doodle said:

This is bad, yes. But wouldn't most teams have passed on at least half of these qbs?

This is exactly why these kinds of threads don't mean much to me. Apart from stating what most Jet fans already know- which is that the Jets have been unable to properly evaluate talent at the QB position. None of these guys went in the top 10 (well, Mahomes went 10th), no matter who ended up drafting them. And the best one of them (for now, Wilson) went in Rd. 2. None of these guys were the top QB selected in their class. 

13 hours ago, David Harris said:

Yes- all true. Depressingly true.

listen to me though.  Sam Darnold is for real and will be one of these guys.  I mean it.

i listened to a jets podcast today entirely devoted to a bean counter unemotionally illustrating just how horrific the offensive line was this year- like ungodly horrible, damn near record breaking bad and how Sam was still able to be an “average” QB under these circumstances that would’ve broken nearly anyone.

i trust in JD and his knowledge that it is OL OL OL. Sam will be one of these guys soon imho

I agree. And thats all that really matters. The Jets GOT their QB. They should get some credit for that. And it took some luck and took a bold move trading up. Now its time to build around him. 

 

12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'll stop you right there.  Either a QB can play or he can't.  None of these teams would be in the Divisional Round of the postseason if these QB's were incapable of winning in any system and regardless of the personnel around them.

Wilson has a Super Bowl in his pocket and has been an elite QB for basically his entire career.  Mahomes has a 50-TD season and a 76/18 TD:INT ratio for his career.  Watson has single-handedly saved Bill O'Brien's job year after year.  Lamar Jackson is a phenom and not just a running QB.  Belichick was heavily resistant to trading Garoppolo for a reason; he'd be the heir apparent to Brady right now if not for Kraft.  

Cousins sucks.  He's the only one on the list I'm fine with "missing out" on.  The rest would all be top 10 or above average QB's here.  

I agree that the QBs would still be very good. Some would put up better numbers than Darnold, some maybe wouldn't. Some would lead the Jets to more wins, some wouldn't. But the bottom line is that Niners team, Defense included is so much better than what the Jets have to support Darnold. I mean, Jimmy without a team like that around him does not sniff the playoffs. You can say the same thing about the Vikings, and to a lesser degree Mahomes and Watson. 

With half of this team hurt and the O-line being what it is, NONE of these QBs would get the Jets to the playoffs. 

You need a good TEAM and coaching to win in this league, particularly in the playoffs. Which is why the Titans with 'washed up' Tannenhill are moving on from the wild card round. And they did it by playing defense and running the ball. Not airing it out b/c this is a 'passing league'. Just an example of the different ways you can win. 

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27 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

The circumstances were an immeasurably easy schedule against other teams in a equal or more disastrous mess as the Jets.  A career-incompetent of a head coach, whose sole success in his entire coaching career was standing on the sideline watching Peyton Manning call plays at the line, deserves absolutely no measure of praise whatsoever.  Particularly when the unit he is responsible for was even worse than last year, while the team was carried by the unit he has absolutely no involvement in.

I'm surprised at how down you are, BG. 

And at the time the Jets played those last 8 games we were significantly worse than all 8 of them.  This "weak schedule" thing is ridiculous because we had an XFL caliber roster out there. 

The goals of the 2018 season were:

1.  New HC, trying to fix the culture, churn the roster, and roll out new playbooks all at the same time.

2.  Young QB, trying to learn his second offense and be validated as an NFL-caliber quarterback in the biggest media fishbowl when his peers were still in USC playing beer pong.

3.  Young defense, trying to live up to its potential under a psycho love/hate coordinator hell-bent on bringing the best out of them.

4.  Win some games and be in the playoff conversation in December.

Well, we nailed the first 3.  And the 4th we were just robbed of because of the ridiculous amount of injuries.  We were an 11-5 team ruined by circumstances we could not control.  And teams we would customarily lose to even when completely healthy-  Cowboys, Raiders, Steelers, Bills-  we stepped-up and took it to them.

You need to get yourself to a place where you can be excited about next season.  The goal was to be the team in the AFC East to take charge once the Patriots fell back.  Here we are.

SAR I

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29 minutes ago, jgb said:

If this was a game of half-seasons, I would agree. It is not so I am not.

7-9 completely healthy is where most fans and experts had our ceiling in 2018.

7-9 utterly injured means we were an 11-5 team completely healthy in 2018.

There's your full-season recap.

SAR I

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I don’t look At the past.  I’m very happy we have Sam, he is the one I wanted to draft for over a year.  Once we put an actual decent support system around him I think we will all be happy 

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1 hour ago, SAR I said:

Capture.jpg

Josh Allen is on an RG3 trajectory, and Lamar Jackson, forget it, he's an MCL waiting to happen, could be next week when he plays a real defense.

As for Sam Darnold, we don't want him to run, but when he needs to he usually gets a few first downs.  And if we want to talk about ceiling, Sam's an athlete, he can get up to Steve Young levels once we improve the OL and if we really needed him to.

SAR I

Yes, Jackson is as good as toast. Michael Vick could only eek out 6,100 rushing yards before being cut down in his prime at the young age of 35.

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25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Absurd.  Lamar's Ravens won @ Seattle 30-16.  Beat up on the Pats 37-20.  Destroyed the Texans 41-7.  Beat the 49ers 20-17.  The Rams 45-6. Beat the Bills 24-17 on the road.  Swept the Steelers.  Barely lost @ Kansas City 33-28.  

All Lamar DID this year was beat good teams.  Hence why they were the # 1 seed in the AFC.  

You're insane.  

ravens.jpg

You think the Jets schedule was easy?  LOL.  Take a look at the Ravens.  10-1 against the league's weaklings.  3-1 against elite teams.

Lamar Jackson landed on the perfect team at the perfect time.  If you can't see that the Ravens have an exceptional head coach, an offense built to Jackson's strength, a ferocious defense, and a cakewalk division, you're the one who is insane.  Perfect storm and perfect circumstances for a kid like him to run around like a maniac and stack wins.

Like Michael Vick, RGIII, and Cam Newton before him, Lamar Jackson is "A transformative player!  Changes the game!" and will stack wins against weak defenses, won't win a championship, and will be injured to the point where he is mediocre by Year 4.  I'll take Darnold, thanks.

SAR I

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14 minutes ago, SAR I said:

7-9 completely healthy is where most fans and experts had our ceiling in 2018.

7-9 utterly injured means we were an 11-5 team completely healthy in 2018.

There's your full-season recap.

SAR I

Again (5th time, at least) lack of depth is one of the key reasons the experts and schlubs like me predicted 6-7 wins. Every team gets hurt. We knew when those inevitable injuries came, the Jets would not be able to recover.

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17 minutes ago, SAR I said:

7-9 completely healthy is where most fans and experts had our ceiling in 2018.

7-9 utterly injured means we were an 11-5 team completely healthy in 2018.

There's your full-season recap.

SAR I

No, it doesn't.  Your hypotheticals don't automatically trade in games we lost for games we "would have won".  For starters, you're ignoring that in this hypothetical, if we beat Buffalo in Week 1, they likely never would have rested their starters in Week 17, as that may well have been a "win and in" situation for the Bills.

Besides, injuries are part of the game.  Did we have excessive injuries above and beyond what other teams experience?  Absolutely.  Does that mean you can expect a team to ever be "fully healthy"?  Absolutely not.  

Vegas set the O/U for wins for this team at 7.5, long before Sam got mono.  That's about right.  This was about an 8-8 team with a more "reasonable" injury list.

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50 minutes ago, SAR I said:

dar.jpg

FWIW, Darnold throws for 100 yards per game more than Lamar Jackson does and Jackson rushes for 55 yards per game more than Darnold does.  Darnold generates 235 yards per game, Jackson generates 200.

Even if one ignores the vast gap of overall roster/coaching talent separating the Ravens from the Jets, the difference between the two QB's is that Jackson surprises defenses with his improv and gets cheap first downs with ease while Darnold requires playmaking receivers to do it in the air. 

Want to know what the Jets would look like with Lamar Jackson?  Just look at the Bills with Josh Allen.  Beats the weak teams, can't beat the good teams, eventually is going to get badly hurt rushing 10+ times a game.  Jackson and Allen are setting themselves up to be RGIII (devastating injury) or an average RB (run too much, hit too much, wore out).

SAR I

Lamar Jackson is an incredible talent and he deserves praise.  However he also has a great team around him which makes life much much easier.  That doesn’t take anything away from Lamar but it does make a huge difference when you not only have time to throw/space to run but also have reliable weapons all over.  In his first two years Sam hasn’t had that 

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41 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Of course we can.  Just watch them play.  Sam makes far more bad decisions than any of the QB's I've been talking about.  Hence why all available metrics suggest he's not good.  Improve his personnel and give him more time to throw, and he'll be about an average QB in this league but probably not elite.  He hasn't flashed enough to suggest elite on the level of Mahomes or even Watson. 

Watson had a bad OL too up until midway through this season, you'll recall.  He still won a ton of games with bad OL's.

Sam makes the majority  of the bad decisions when he is under duress which is well over 50% of his throws.  I have seen Mahones make stupid throws when he is being chased our the pocket as well and Sam does not make bad throws when he has time. You make the guy sound like the secind coming of Geno.

And saying Watson had a bad line compared to what Sam when through with this one is about as redic  as it gets. 

 

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4 minutes ago, SAR I said:

ravens.jpg

You think the Jets schedule was easy?  LOL.  Take a look at the Ravens.  10-1 against the league's weaklings.  3-1 against elite teams.

Lamar Jackson landed on the perfect team at the perfect time.  If you can't see that the Ravens have an exceptional head coach, an offense built to Jackson's strength, a ferocious defense, and a cakewalk division, you're the one who is insane.  Perfect storm and perfect circumstances for a kid like him to run around like a maniac and stack wins.

Like Michael Vick, RGIII, and Cam Newton before him, Lamar Jackson is "A transformative player!  Changes the game!" and will stack wins against weak defenses, won't win a championship, and will be injured to the point where he is mediocre by Year 4.  I'll take Darnold, thanks.

SAR I

 

3-1 against elite teams isn't good enough for you to say the Ravens and Lamar were legit?  Come on now.

Lamar may well get hurt at some point.  But until he does, he's a better prospect than Sam.  That's not even a contest. 

When Lamar runs, he tends to avoid contact (unlike an idiot like Carson Wentz).  I think he'll be just fine for a long time.  

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2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Sam makes the majority  of the bad decisions when he is under duress which is well over 50% of his throws.  I have seen Mahones make stupid throws when he is being chased our the pocket as well and Sam does not make bad throws when he has time. You make the guy sound like the secind coming of Geno.

And saying Watson had a bad line compared to what Sam when through with this one is about as redic  as it gets. 

 

 

Sam is far better than Geno.  That doesn't mean his decision-making isn't anything short of questionable.  

I never said Watson had a worse or equal compared to Sam's.  Only that his line has been bad for a while but that didn't stop him from a ton of success in this league, including a recent playoff comeback win against an elite defense.

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4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yes, Jackson is as good as toast. Michael Vick could only eek out 6,100 rushing yards before being cut down in his prime at the young age of 35.

vickchez.jpg

Just remember, I'm not the one who brought Mark Sanchez into this thread.  You did.

A funny thing happens to these running-around quarterbacks in the playoffs.  They stop stacking wins against weaklings, they play real defenses, and they can't throw the ball.

SAR I

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56 minutes ago, BrickzNY said:

So does every other QB. These guys are pros for a reason. If everything is perfect, they can play. The QBs that can still play and make the playoffs when things aren’t perfect are the true great ones. That’s all I’m saying. 

I guess we are forgetting the 5 or 6 guys that came thorough here.  

And Sam throws under duress a large percentage of the time. I don't  think any successful  QB in the league would be able to operate  at a high efficiency under the same conditions. 

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Sam is far better than Geno.  That doesn't mean his decision-making isn't anything short of questionable.  

I never said Watson had a "worse" line than Sam.  Only that his line was bad but that didn't stop him from a ton of success in this league, including a recent playoff comeback win against an elite defense.

Watson was very impressive.  In fact I said during the game that he literally carried them to a victory.  However all these quarterbacks you have listed despite how talented they are all have very good teams while we do not yet, that makes a huge difference for any young QB.  We all agree Sam has things he needs to clean up absolutely but it would be nice if he didn’t have to run for his life 90 percent of the time too lol

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Sam is far better than Geno.  That doesn't mean his decision-making isn't anything short of questionable.  

I never said Watson had a worse or equal compared to Sam's.  Only that his line has been bad for a while but that didn't stop him from a ton of success in this league, including a recent playoff comeback win against an elite defense.

You and I have different opinions on what is a bad OL. Cin has a bad line, The Cards have a bad line, what Houston had was not what it is now but not bad. 

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11 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

Watson was very impressive.  In fact I said during the game that he literally carried them to a victory.  However all these quarterbacks you have listed despite how talented they are all have very good teams while we do not yet, that makes a huge difference for any young QB.  We all agree Sam has things he needs to clean up absolutely but it would be nice if he didn’t have to run for his life 90 percent of the time too lol

Sure, but that doesn't mean that if Sam received the improvements he needs he'll start throwing 50 TD's like Mahomes or immediately start winning playoff games. 

Nor does that mean Mahomes, Watson and Jackson wouldn't have been successful here in Sam's situation.  They wouldn't be AS successful as they are with their current organizations, but they'd still be either top 10 QB's or above average QB's.  Sam has been a bottom 5 QB.  

In short, I think Sam is about average.  Mahomes, Watson and Jackson are varying levels of elite.  

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean that if Sam received the improvements he needs he'll start throwing 50 TD's like Mahomes or immediately start winning playoff games. 

Nor does that mean Mahomes, Watson and Jackson wouldn't have been successful here in Sam's situation.  They wouldn't be AS successful as they are with their current organizations, but they'd still be either top 10 QB's or above average QB's.  Sam has been a bottom 5 QB.  

In short, I think Sam is about average.  Mahomes, Watson and Jackson are varying levels of elite.  

It’s impossible to know that.  The situations are so extremely different.  Comparing those teams to us is like comparing a 5 star restaurant to Burger King lol.  That’s gonna have an effect on a QB no matter how talented 

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20 minutes ago, SAR I said:

vickchez.jpg

Just remember, I'm not the one who brought Mark Sanchez into this thread.  You did.

A funny thing happens to these running-around quarterbacks in the playoffs.  They stop stacking wins against weaklings, they play real defenses, and they can't throw the ball.

SAR I

What am I missing with the Sanchez reference?

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7 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

It’s impossible to know that.  The situations are so extremely different.  Comparing those teams to us is like comparing a 5 star restaurant to Burger King lol.  That’s gonna have an effect on a QB no matter how talented 

Yet you see tons of people in this thread trying to make that hypothetical argument on the other side.

No reasonable NFL fan could watch Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Darnold play and put Sam on that level.  At least not yet.  Surrounding circumstances can contribute only so much.  At some point, when you parse the other variables out, the eye test can separate the QB's on their play alone.  

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13 hours ago, TeddEY said:

The overwhelming majority of Jets fans are unwilling to even consider the notion that Sam Darnold isn't in the same league as these QBs.  There are only two options for them, Sam Darnold becomes a top-10-type QB, or Sam Darnold was ruined by the Jets.  Ultimately, there's no point in engaging in these discussions when people have taken a QB who is performing at the bottom of the league in advanced and standard metrics, and have taken the assumption that there is simply no possible chance this is a representation of the players ability.

Or conversely, guys like you have a hard on for Darnold and don't want to look at the bigger picture. 

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