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Douglas: Get a Dominant Center


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4 minutes ago, Pac said:

I don't necessarily blame him for trying.  Where I think they failed is grossly overpaying and refusing to bench him when it was clear as day that he was playing like sh-t.

It makes you wonder if this regime will make the classic mistake of playing the higher drafted or higher paid players even though the backups are better.

Sure they benched Tru but that was all Williams.  Gase cedes complete control to him on that side of the ball.

That's fair, I thought it was more of an issue that he didn't play in preseason, than it was them not wanting to bench him. Once you pay him that kind of money you anticipate having him start at Center and if you don't play preseason ya gotta give him a little time to gel.

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10 minutes ago, Pac said:

I don't necessarily blame him for trying.  Where I think they failed is grossly overpaying and refusing to bench him when it was clear as day that he was playing like sh-t.

It makes you wonder if this regime will make the classic mistake of playing the higher drafted or higher paid players even though the backups are better.

Sure they benched Tru but that was all Williams.  Gase cedes complete control to him on that side of the ball.

This is a concern I have as well, in contrast to some wishful thinking posts I've seen about how there's finally a meritocracy in place because Gase is a hardass douche who gives no effs. As you point out, the only one who appears to have done that was Williams, who did what he wanted (as was his agreement when he was hired, and for Gase's hire as well for that matter). 

I do think including Douglas in "they" is overstepping a bit, though. Once he's on the roster it's all on Gase and the coaches deciding who plays over whom. Also doubt Douglas brought in Kalil without his HC pushing him to get someone/anyone else at that point; he didn't seem to make much of an effort at the position until August. Also in fairness to both of them, he wasn't nearly the train wreck in 2018 that he was in 2019. Yeah Kalil was officially retired, but he had enough time to get into game shape between the time he was signed and the time he went on IR. A dropoff wasn't far-fetched, but he was surprisingly awful. Seems to me he liked the idea of coming back and helping out fellow Trojan Darnold - for a last, nice payday - but after a few weeks of aches and sore muscles, even through just preseason camp, he then remembered why he retired and didn't go all out like he once did, which is harder with each additional year older anyway.

Harrison isn't good but unlike at other positions on the line, he's at least a player under contract with a pulse and some starting experience of not being an embarrassment. The four tackle + guard spots are far bigger immediate concerns.

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8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Cool.  We lost both.  20 years of center dominance and that’s what we have to show for it.

What did we have to show for the sack exchange? How many Titles games did we reach with Abraham? How many rings does Abraham have? 
Pass Rush is important but trading Abraham to end up with a borderline HOF Center was not disastrous especially considering the team maintain a semblance of success throughout the next 10 years.

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2 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

It could be a tough year to find an upgrade for Harrison.  Just being honest.  There isn't a great crop of Center prospects in the Draft.  Tyler Biadasz is the highest rated and he is barely worthy of using a late 1st Round pick on.  He will be overdrafted (taken earlier than he should) because there aren't many of these guys.  In later rounds there are decent prospects but all have faults.  These are Drafttek's top Center prospects currently.  I might have them ordered a little differently and move some higher or lower, but this essentially the pool of Draft candidates....(Remember that Jets pick 11, 48, 68, 79, 110, 140, 171, 202....assuming they don't trade out of those spots)

 

1250207953_ScreenShot2020-01-11at11_21_40AM.png.519d23d8770a6965743c9b2f3703f7f1.png

 

I don't know what the Free Agent options are at Center.  We could unfortunately be looking at upgrading around Harrison (both OG spots) in order to solidify the interior and hope that better Guard play helps Harrison perform better in the middle.

One thing is for sure though, Joe Douglas knows that Center is a sore spot.  He even tried to upgrade Harrison by luring Ryan Kalil out of retirement.  So I do think it will be addresses in some way, shape or form this offseason.  Remember that Joe D was spoiled in having Jason Kelce at Center in Philly....so he's not used to seeing the kind of play we've been getting with the Jets.

You're really diving deep this year, hey? I like it... I-like-it-alot

I agree, we may have to be realistic about addressing CENTER. Our roster has somehow gotten progressively worse since Macc took ever... We're going to put a dent in that Oline this offseason for sure, but we may end up having to hold over Harrison while addressing Tackles and Guards

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24 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

That's fair, I thought it was more of an issue that he didn't play in preseason, than it was them not wanting to bench him. Once you pay him that kind of money you anticipate having him start at Center and if you don't play preseason ya gotta give him a little time to gel.

+1. He was first team All-Pro three years ago. They thought they could steal a few starts from him this year while Darnold learned a new system and they hoped Kalil would play himself into shape after the time off. As for overpaying, they gave him a one year deal. Kalil sucked, but Harrison likewise sucks, as everyone’s favorite analytics site PFF will confirm. The one position Gase wanted Maccagnan to address this off-season was center and Maccagnan refused to do it. 

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2 hours ago, BCJet said:

Between Biadasz, Cesar Ruiz,  Henessey, Nick Martin, etc we should be able to find a center in the 2nd-4th round who can either start right away if he impresses or work behind Harrison for a year, get stronger and hopefully hold down the position going forward.  

I also wouldn't mind looking at Glasgow as a FA to potentially play center and draft a RG. 

Looking back, it is mind boggling how Mac had such a need at the position along with a ton of cap space and had Ryan Jensen playing at an elite level who essentially said he was taking whoever offered him the most money and let him sign in Tampa.  I honestly wonder what on earth he thought about in general.  When you have a need, cap space and a good young player available just do it.  

This may have been Macc's greatest sin.  Jensen was there for the taking.  He signed for about $10MM/year I believe.  Hell, we paid Kalil over $8MM to suck.  Jensen had a very good year.  So much 'what could have been' with Macc.

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Good grief. Harrison is a backup at best. We need a new C.  Who cares about Kalil; he was a one year band aid that didn't stick to the skin.

LT is the most important spot on the line. Next is C.  You really want to be "good" or better at those two spots at least, then fill in from there with quality (RT next important, then both G).

If the Jets go LT in the first and WR in the 2nd, then they really need to take the best C on the board with the first third round pick. Thank you, Giants!

 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This is a concern I have as well, in contrast to some wishful thinking posts I've seen about how there's finally a meritocracy in place because Gase is a hardass douche who gives no effs. As you point out, the only one who appears to have done that was Williams, who did what he wanted (as was his agreement when he was hired, and for Gase's hire as well for that matter). 

I do think including Douglas in "they" is overstepping a bit, though. Once he's on the roster it's all on Gase and the coaches deciding who plays over whom. Also doubt Douglas brought in Kalil without his HC pushing him to get someone/anyone else at that point; he didn't seem to make much of an effort at the position until August. Also in fairness to both of them, he wasn't nearly the train wreck in 2018 that he was in 2019. Yeah Kalil was officially retired, but he had enough time to get into game shape between the time he was signed and the time he went on IR. A dropoff wasn't far-fetched, but he was surprisingly awful. Seems to me he liked the idea of coming back and helping out fellow Trojan Darnold - for a last, nice payday - but after a few weeks of aches and sore muscles, even through just preseason camp, he then remembered why he retired and didn't go all out like he once did, which is harder with each additional year older anyway.

Harrison isn't good but unlike at other positions on the line, he's at least a player under contract with a pulse and some starting experience of not being an embarrassment. The four tackle + guard spots are far bigger immediate concerns.

This couldn’t be more spot on, signing Kalil wasn’t as big of a deal as playing his corpse out there for almost half a season. That type of thing is a culture destroyer. 

While we have been spoiled by basically two HOF centers, the other four spots should be priority, especially at both tackle spots , especially with how Gase wants his running game. 

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4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

+1. He was first team All-Pro three years ago. They thought they could steal a few starts from him this year while Darnold learned a new system and they hoped Kalil would play himself into shape after the time off. As for overpaying, they gave him a one year deal. Kalil sucked, but Harrison likewise sucks, as everyone’s favorite analytics site PFF will confirm. The one position Gase wanted Maccagnan to address this off-season was center and Maccagnan refused to do it. 

I wonder if that last part - Maccagnan passing on Paradis - had a bit more weight than I (and others) are presuming. If he wanted Paradis over Harrison, made a big deal of it (in particular as a major reason in getting CJ to finally fire Maccagnan), and then he went with Harrison all year long because there was no one else... yeah that’s a good amount of egg on his face to CJ and a bit less benefit of the doubt if he fails and wants to blame the talent. So going along with this theory, under no circumstances can he have Harrison start all year. We saw how bad Kalil played - really he was unexpectedly worse than anyone could have expected - and yet Gase still wouldn’t bench him.

I don’t know that this is all of the story, but there’s probably at least some truth to it being part of what went on. 

We’ll have to wait for Collision Low Crossers II to come out, I guess.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I wonder if that last part - Maccagnan passing on Paradis - had a bit more weight than I (and others) are presuming. If he wanted Paradis over Harrison, made a big deal of it (in particular as a major reason in getting CJ to finally fire Maccagnan), and then he went with Harrison all year long because there was no one else... yeah that’s a good amount of egg on his face to CJ and a bit less benefit of the doubt if he fails and wants to blame the talent. So going along with this theory, under no circumstances can he have Harrison start all year. We saw how bad Kalil played - really he was unexpectedly worse than anyone could have expected - and yet Gase still wouldn’t bench him.

I don’t know that this is all of the story, but there’s probably at least some truth to it being part of what went on. 

We’ll have to wait for Collision Low Crossers II to come out, I guess.

The unknown is why Gase had such an aversion to starting Harrison at all, which seems curious because he doesn’t appear to be all that bad (PFF notwithstanding). As it relates to Kalil, at least some of the thought had to be that he’d get better as he knocked off the rust. He had seven starts, looked bad, and he’s heading back to the couch. I’m not sure it says as much about Gase playing favorites as it was about Gase not wanting Harrison. 

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Just now, T0mShane said:

The unknown is why Gase had such an aversion to starting Harrison at all, which seems curious because he doesn’t appear to be all that bad (PFF notwithstanding). As it relates to Kalil, at least some of the thought had to be that he’d get better as he knocked off the rust. He had seven starts, looked bad, and he’s heading back to the couch. I’m not sure it says as much about Gase playing favorites as it was about Gase not wanting Harrison. 

I think that was a case of the jets whether it was gase or douglas having to talk kalil into coming back and after they handed him the big money they felt obligated to play him.

The big mistake was that they hardly played the guy in camp and he was totally not ready when the real games came along.

By far the worse sin the year before was Bowles not playing Harrison when Long could not at all snap the ball.

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16 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The unknown is why Gase had such an aversion to starting Harrison at all, which seems curious because he doesn’t appear to be all that bad

You're making it sound like Gase first met Harrison during training camp. There is a ton of film on Harrison and Gase was in our division when Harrison was a starter for us.

Gase and JD hate Harrison because he is terrible. Not as bad as a Kalil who was coerced off of his couch for around 5 mil +.....but he's bad. 

Go back and watch any full game when Harrison was the starter and focus in on him. It's not pretty.

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Just now, RobR said:

You're making it sound like Gase first met Harrison during training camp. There is a ton of film on Harrison and Gase was in our division when Harrison was a starter for us.

Gase and JD hate Harrison because he is terrible. Not as bad as a Kalil who was coerced off of his couch for around 5 mil +.....but he's bad. 

Go back and watch any full game when Harrison was the starter and focus in on him. It's not pretty.

I agree with you, but the team performed decently both last year and this year with Harrison at center. It wasn’t like he was unplayable. Edoga, this year, was unplayable 

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10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I agree with you, but the team performed decently both last year and this year with Harrison at center. It wasn’t like he was unplayable. Edoga, this year, was unplayable 

I thought they were both unplayable at times but that is what happens when you field the worst offense in the NFL.  I'm still holding out hope for Edoga because he was thrust into a position that was destined for failure. Harrison is completely different because he has been around for a while. He's a known quantity while Edoga is a 22 year old that was forced to play the LT position because Gase has zero trust in Shell. 

The entire front office feels differently including your buddy Gase. He stole the job from a healthy Shell and when injuries happened they preferred the rookie over Shell at the LT position. It's not easy playing tackle in the NFL as a rookie....it might be the hardest position.   

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19 hours ago, JetsLife said:

Worked for Parcells in '98 when he made future HOFer Kevin Mawae the highest-paid center in history at the time.

Worked for the '19 Bills when they signed Morse. Didn't work for Maccagnan's '19 Jets when he stood pat with Harrison, leaving Douglas to scramble for Kalil.

Recently read Baltimore's center was a standout earlier this season. Unsure what he's done since, but assume it's continued. If so undoubtedly a factor in Baltimore's formidable ground attack & offense.

Center play is critical to good offense - get it done JD!

And worked for the Jets when we drafted Mangold in 2006. Was here until 2017, at a Pro bowl level. Brick at LT as well, the best we ever had.

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21 hours ago, Pac said:

Kalil was horrific.  It was a case where JD and Gase outsmarted themselves and paid huge money to a player demonstrably worse than the one we had on the roster.

I'm optimistic but their first move at fixing the line was a gigantic flop.

He shouldn't be judged on the failure of Kalil.  It was one of his first moves.  The failure wasn't because Douglas made it, it was because Kalil wasn't ready, or can no longer perform at the high level he once did.

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