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Look at Mahomes weapons!


Jetster

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2 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

No one is "petrified".  Id like to see him do well but the truth is I no longer care enough to base my schedule around football. 

I do trust my eyes though and I see a guy with great attributes that I believe can be elite with a solid supporting cast.  You dont-thats fine, just dont piss in my lemonade because youre bitter.

please send me a pic with you and 723 holding hands...

it'd be SPECIAL

He's a bad QB until he proves otherwise. YOu choose to ignore major flaws. 

Namath said he was playing like a high schooler v Pats.  Pass HIM your limonada. 

 

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2 hours ago, Jetster said:

That Houston defense is TERRIBLE! They had backups playing everywhere in that secondary yesterday to begin with & in the 2nd half they had NOBODIES. 

And they played zone. Once Mahomes found the soft spots in the zone, they were toast. You can not beat Mahomes, or any great QB unless you disguise what you are doing and mix things up. You must create some uncertainty in the QB's mind as to what the D will be doing on each play if you want to beat a great QB. I was floored by the simplicity of the D and not surprised at all that once KC realized what the D was, they carved it up. 

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Just now, Losmeister said:

please send me a pic with you and 723 holding hands...

it'd be SPECIAL

He's a bad QB until he proves otherwise. YOu choose to ignore major flaws. 

Namath said he was playing like a high schooler v Pats.  Pass HIM your limonada. 

 

Very immature dude. 

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4 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

Cool.  By they thanks for always being civil and respectful.  I know we don’t always agree but you know where I’m coming from.  Take care pal. Let’s go Jets!!!

The only place you and I disagree is how we think Sam would be playing right now, with better support.  I believe a lot of his problems are of his own making.  I’m not saying those things can’t improve too, but I have my doubts.

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

The only place you and I disagree is how we think Sam would be playing right now, with better support.  I believe a lot of his problems are of his own making.  I’m not saying those things can’t improve too, but I have my doubts.

That’s fine I respect that.  Like I said anybody has a right to their opinion.  My only issue is when some go overboard with the agenda....thankfully you don’t do that  I’ve said many times there are things Sam needs to clean up and I think he will

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1 minute ago, Sonny Werblin said:

And they played zone. Once Mahomes found the soft spots in the zone, they were toast. You can not beat Mahomes, or any great QB unless you disguise what you are doing and mix things up. You must create some uncertainty in the QB's mind as to what the D will be doing on each play if you want to beat a great QB. I was floored by the simplicity of the D and not surprised at all that once KC realized what the D was, they carved it up. 

I have a friend who is a Steeler fan. He said Tomlin was so stubborn playing the Pats he always played zone against Brady & he usually lost. And Brady can't run like Mahomes. Mercilus is slowing down, Watt was a shell of himself & completely SPENT by the half, their LBs are pedestrian, and all of their CBs were hurt or banged up & Justin Reid is overrated. Texans do not have a top 15 defense. They ranked individually in catagories from 18- 29. They were 29 in giving up points in the redzone. 

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23 minutes ago, Jetster said:

I have a friend who is a Steeler fan. He said Tomlin was so stubborn playing the Pats he always played zone against Brady & he usually lost. And Brady can't run like Mahomes. Mercilus is slowing down, Watt was a shell of himself & completely SPENT by the half, their LBs are pedestrian, and all of their CBs were hurt or banged up & Justin Reid is overrated. Texans do not have a top 15 defense. They ranked individually in catagories from 18- 29. They were 29 in giving up points in the redzone. 

 I am not sure that I understand this post.  How does what Tomlin does against the Pats relate to this?  Are teams never supposed to play zone?  Banged up corners are often better off playing zone.  It also helps against a mobile QB because playing man you can't look into the backfield and you have no idea when the ball is coming out. 

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49 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

If we’re going to do this, it must be done as Darnold and Adams vs. Mahommes, 2018 1, 2x 2018 2, and 2019 2.  I like the later to have the Jets as a playoff team this year.

That's all fair.  I don't disagree the Jets are in a better spot as an organization in 2019 if the latter occurs(even tho Macc is doing the picking them so who knows what that turns out like)

I guess the part that I am talking about is more so a question of how/what drives the development of young quarterbacks. Is Patrick Mahomes "this" player if he's drafted by the Jets and had the same exact surroundings and coaching etc that Darnold has had.  I personally don't think so.  I actually don't think he'd be close.  I could be wrong there.  It's not a question of talent.  He's supremely talented.  But lots of 1st round QBs are supremely talented and fail miserably.  Why is that?  Is it all a mental thing that can't be judged predraft?  That's possible.  Is it landing spot?  Coaching?  

Who knows.  I think it's an interesting discussion though.  

Edit:. I just saw you went over some of this in responses to another poster.  I appreciate the input.

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

 I am not sure that I understand this post.  What does what Tomlin does against the Pats have to do with this?  Are teams never supposed to play zone?  Banged up corners are often better off playing zone and it helps against a mobile QB because playing man you can't look into the backfield and you have no idea when the ball is coming out. 

BRADY EATS ZONES ALIVE. Always has. Maybe the Texans had to play zone but up 24-0? Didn't really matter, Texans don't have the horses on D & sucked all year on defense. Denver Broncos scored 38 points vs Texans, lol. Yes, the Broncos scored 38 points vs Houston.

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7 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Maybe on offense.  Our defense looks pretty darn promising though.  Our MLBs should be some of the best once healthy, great pair of safeties, solid line and a great d coordinator.

Playoff worthy on its own?  Nope.  But definitely some legit talent there.

Only one of the final 4 teams are in the top ten of defense. All 4 teams were in the top 8 of offense. Hanging your hat on your defense on your way to a 6-10 season next year seems short sighted. 

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You give Sam an O Line and Robbie looks even better.
 
And Kelsey is great but he isnt better than Kittle.
Yes. Kelce is better than kittle. Statistically and in every other way. This is a super easy one...this week in football - kittle 3 receptions for 16 yards. Kelce - 10 receptions for 134 yards and three touchdowns. Which one was more valuable to their team this week?

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30 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

Again huh?

As long as people are going to talk about how [insert very good QB] couldn't possibly succeed on the Jets, I'm going to continue to point out that it's just a coping mechanism for the fact that the guy we traded 4 high picks for isn't succeeding, yes.

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Yes. Kelce is better than kittle. Statistically and in every other way. This is a super easy one...this week in football - kittle 3 receptions for 16 yards. Kelce - 10 receptions for 134 yards and three touchdowns. Which one was more valuable to their team this week?

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using JetNation.com mobile app

 

They're both great receivers, Kittle is probably a better route runner, definitely better with the ball in his hands.

 

Kittle is a FAR superior blocker.

 

Kittle is better.

 

Kelce has a bigger body of work this far.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Maybe not an MVP candidate.  But up there with the elite QB's?  Absolutely.  His skillset would work anywhere.  It's why Reid wanted him so badly that he dumped Alex Smith after a career year and traded up for him.  Reid saw something special in Mahomes.  He's absolutely NOT a system QB.  

Reid is such a great coach and team builder, except he doesn’t realize - I mean, not nearly as well as a couple posters here do - that any good QB prospect would have been a record-setter in the situation he set up. We know what he has, and we know what he personally brings to the table, better than he does.

So it was stewpid to use 2 first rounders on Mahomes. He shudda just picked up Ryan Fitzpatrick and surrounded him with the current roster plus those 2 additional first rounders.

Amazingly shortsighted. 

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16 hours ago, Jetster said:

Watching that game yesterday it crystal clear how laughable Darnolds weapons are starting with the Oline & ending with the Tight end. 

I would take almost every WR on the Chiefs roster over Robbie Anderson. Kelsey is currently the best TE in the league since Gronk retired & its not even close. Tyreek Hill is unstoppable. Then they throw out Watkins, Hardmen, Robinson (If he didn't drop 3 balls they wouldn't have to come from so many points behind). 

Its really criminal that lack of Oline, WRs, RBs in this day & age of offensive football. AJ Brown is a stud, in the same mold as Deebo Samuel. How can a Jet fan not be excited about QB that literally has the worst group of players surrounding him in the entire league & displayed some semblance of success? 

I just imagine Sam with weapons & an Oline protecting him. No one has done more with less in this league at his age. 

George Kittle says Hi.

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15 hours ago, CTM said:

I agree! But how does that translate into watching another QB play well and having an uncontrollable impulse to proactively defend Sam as your first reaction.

It's sort of like watching Jackson lose a playoff game, then translating that into Darnold being better than him.

Only different. ?

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19 hours ago, Jetster said:

Watching that game yesterday it crystal clear how laughable Darnolds weapons are starting with the Oline & ending with the Tight end. 

I would take almost every WR on the Chiefs roster over Robbie Anderson. Kelsey is currently the best TE in the league since Gronk retired & its not even close. Tyreek Hill is unstoppable. Then they throw out Watkins, Hardmen, Robinson (If he didn't drop 3 balls they wouldn't have to come from so many points behind). 

Its really criminal that lack of Oline, WRs, RBs in this day & age of offensive football. AJ Brown is a stud, in the same mold as Deebo Samuel. How can a Jet fan not be excited about QB that literally has the worst group of players surrounding him in the entire league & displayed some semblance of success? 

I just imagine Sam with weapons & an Oline protecting him. No one has done more with less in this league at his age. 

 

19 hours ago, Ben Had said:

What is crystal clear to me is how good Mahomes is...he is why they are so successful! Put any other QB on that team and they may score 1/2 the points they do now.

The perfect example why it is pointless to debate QBs on this board.

Like a QB who performs well: “He is really elevating the talent around him.”

Like a QB who performs poorly: “His supporting cast stinks.”

Hate a QB who performs well: “He is being carried by his supporting cast.”

Hate a QB who performs poorly: “He’s a bum.”

This is why I introduce the jgb philosophy of QB evaluation: Good QBs play football good. Bad ones do not. Analysis complete.

 

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20 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

The perfect example why it is pointless to debate QBs on this board.

Like a QB who performs well: “He is really elevating the talent around him.”

Like a QB who performs poorly: “His supporting cast stinks.”

Hate a QB who performs well: “He is being carried by his supporting cast.”

Hate a QB who performs poorly: “He’s a bum.”

This is why I introduce the jgb philosophy of QB evaluation: Good QBs play football good. Bad ones do not. Analysis complete.

 

To view a QB’s true potential, get them a line and some weapons. Jackson is fantastic at the Ravens, he’d most likely be a bust here.  

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19 hours ago, Jetster said:

Watching that game yesterday it crystal clear how laughable Darnolds weapons are starting with the Oline & ending with the Tight end. 

I would take almost every WR on the Chiefs roster over Robbie Anderson. Kelsey is currently the best TE in the league since Gronk retired & its not even close. Tyreek Hill is unstoppable. Then they throw out Watkins, Hardmen, Robinson (If he didn't drop 3 balls they wouldn't have to come from so many points behind). 

Its really criminal that lack of Oline, WRs, RBs in this day & age of offensive football. AJ Brown is a stud, in the same mold as Deebo Samuel. How can a Jet fan not be excited about QB that literally has the worst group of players surrounding him in the entire league & displayed some semblance of success? 

I just imagine Sam with weapons & an Oline protecting him. No one has done more with less in this league at his age. 

this is so true and has been going on for the last 20 years sure we have had some decent players but nothing like some of the high powered offenses we've seen the past 20 years . This is why QB's come here to die.

People cursed out Cousins for not coming to the Jets but how can you argue Thielen and Diggs vs the crap the Jets had to offer ? Oh hey we got Robbie LOL

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20 hours ago, Jetster said:

Watching that game yesterday it crystal clear how laughable Darnolds weapons are starting with the Oline & ending with the Tight end. 

I would take almost every WR on the Chiefs roster over Robbie Anderson. Kelsey is currently the best TE in the league since Gronk retired & its not even close. Tyreek Hill is unstoppable. Then they throw out Watkins, Hardmen, Robinson (If he didn't drop 3 balls they wouldn't have to come from so many points behind). 

Its really criminal that lack of Oline, WRs, RBs in this day & age of offensive football. AJ Brown is a stud, in the same mold as Deebo Samuel. How can a Jet fan not be excited about QB that literally has the worst group of players surrounding him in the entire league & displayed some semblance of success? 

I just imagine Sam with weapons & an Oline protecting him. No one has done more with less in this league at his age. 

While all this may be true please do not act like ANY QB can walk in, and do what Mahomes has done.

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2 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

To view a QB’s true potential, get them a line and some weapons. Jackson is fantastic at the Ravens, he’d most likely be a bust here.  

It’s a circular argument with no end or conclusion possible. You can never differentiate individual performance—good or bad—from situation once you start down that road. You’ll always have people arguing situation or player based on their own biases no matter what a QB does. I mean look at how many deride Brady as a “system” QB. The best QB ever! I guarantee you there are Rams fans who claim Montana was a product of Bill Walsh and an incredible supporting cast. I’m sure they point to his final years as a Chief in the twilight of his career as “proof” of this view.

Call me a simpleton but good QBs perform well. Could it miss some outliers here and there? I suppose but in the vast majority of cases it is accurate. For every Jared Goff there are dozens of Geno Smiths or David Carrs.

I admire the mental gymnastics necessary to somehow equate Mahomes and Darnold. The fact is we already know that Mahomes and Lamar are MVP players “with a good supporting cast” (although I believe many underestimate the effect an elite QB has on making a supporting cast appear “good”). Whether Darnold can elevate to their level is complete speculation that could be applied to nearly every QB on a bad team. “Could be” is not the same as “would be.” It is a leap of hopeful faith, which is fine, but let’s call it what it is and respect that you don’t have to be “a hater” to be skeptical.

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As long as people are going to talk about how [insert very good QB] couldn't possibly succeed on the Jets, I'm going to continue to point out that it's just a coping mechanism for the fact that the guy we traded 4 high picks for isn't succeeding, yes.

Isn’t succeeding? By almost every measurable Darnold has improved from year one to year two. And that’s with a decimated team around him. It’s not up for debate.

And your point is not necessarily valid. I thought passing on mahomes was silly too, although I never saw him being as great as he is, but still think he would not be the Mahomes he is in KC had he been drafted by the Jets. It can be both ways.
Same thing with Lamar. No way is he the same player playing behind this line and playing in an offense that wasn’t specifically designed for him. I really believe that.

The Adams vs Trubisky/Mahomes narrative is sooooo tired and signifies an inability to move on. Not that I don’t get it (still hate john Abraham haha) but we are just about 4 years away from that poor decision. Can’t we just be happy that the player we did choose just happens to be an All Pro?


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21 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

DeMarcus Robinson made 3 crucial drops in the first half, including 2 on third down plays, contributing heavily to them starting the game down 24-0.  

There's a chance Sam would have collapsed after that.  Mahomes just shrugged his shoulders and put up 50+ points.  

We get it.  Mahomes has an amazing set of circumstances around him.  He's still a special QB.  Sam is a work in progress.  He wouldn't be doing anything close to what Mahomes is doing if he were a Chief.  He just wouldn't.  

That isn't  true

 Mahomes  knows he has the horses to compete, with Sam, it's  all onnhis shoulders righr now 

 That is a huge difference 

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21 hours ago, Ben Had said:

Not taking anything away from Sam...but have you ever seen him scramble around and make the kind of plays mahomes did yesterday?

 

Mahomes lifted that team helping get guys open.

Yeah,  I have. What QB have you neem watching. I believe the 2 Pt conversion against the Bills is the kind of play you are talking about. 

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The perfect example why it is pointless to debate QBs on this board.
Like a QB who performs well: “He is really elevating the talent around him.”
Like a QB who performs poorly: “His supporting cast stinks.”
Hate a QB who performs well: “He is being carried by his supporting cast.”
Hate a QB who performs poorly: “He’s a bum.”
This is why I introduce the jgb philosophy of QB evaluation: Good QBs play football good. Bad ones do not. Analysis complete.
 
Well. They play football well.
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2 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:


Isn’t succeeding? By almost every measurable Darnold has improved from year one to year two. And that’s with a decimated team around him. It’s not up for debate.

And your point is not necessarily valid. I thought passing on mahomes was silly too, although I never saw him being as great as he is, but still think he would not be the Mahomes he is in KC had he been drafted by the Jets. It can be both ways.
Same thing with Lamar. No way is he the same player playing behind this line and playing in an offense that wasn’t specifically designed for him. I really believe that.

The Adams vs Trubisky/Mahomes narrative is sooooo tired and signifies an inability to move on. Not that I don’t get it (still hate john Abraham haha) but we are just about 4 years away from that poor decision. Can’t we just be happy that the player we did choose just happens to be an All Pro?


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It’s great that he improved.  However, when it comes to measurables, he improved from bad to less bad.  That his team sucked is reason for hope that things can improve, it’s not evidence that they will.  At least not meaningfully.  Yes, I imagine Darnold’s advanced metrics won’t be worst in the league bad in time.  But that’s no evidence they will be good.  Hell, he didn’t even impress against the Bills second string.

Regarding Mahommes, it’s a fantasy.  Pure and simple.  You’re comparing someone putting up league MVP numbers to someone putting up bottom of the league numbers.  Maybe he wouldn’t be as good.  Probably, even.  But, at present, the gap between Mahommes/Watson/Lamar and Darnold is huge, by the numbers.  All of these guys could be, not the same, and still better than Darnold.

The Adams narrative is still hurting the team, and it effects decisions going forward.  It cost us a better QB and 4 other high picks.  It is a not insignificant part of the reason we suck (yeah, yeah, Macc would have blown the picks anyway).  Can we be happy that the player we chose is an All Pro?  You can.  You can be happy about whatever you like.  I want to win games and have a good team.  Unfortunately, in 3 years, our specific All Pro doesn’t really do much to make that happen.

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23 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Not taking anything away from Mahomes but he's throwing to a lot of guys that are wide open, a lot.  

It is so rare Sam has someone wide open.  Feels like every throw Sam has to make is into a VERY tight window. 

That matters.

I wanted Mahomes drafted and said so out here and ripped McDufus for not drafting him

But.......

You can’t compare the talent level of the Jets to KC. If Mahomes were on the Jets he wouldn’t be as good.  

Why not?

Because not only is the talent not as good but the coaching isn’t even close!

Knock Andy Reid all you want but he is a HOF coach, period. Can the same be said of Bowels or Gase?

If you think that Watson would have just been fine on the Jets without SIGNIFICANT problems you are simply not being honest.

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

That isn't  true

 Mahomes  knows he has the horses to compete, with Sam, it's  all onnhis shoulders righr now 

 That is a huge difference 

This is too funny.  80 just retold the facts. You counter with the facts aren’t true because of what you imagine both QBs are thinking.

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23 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This is too funny.  80 just retold the facts. You counter with the facts aren’t true because of what you imagine both QBs are thinking.

There is no doubt that Mahomes is the better QB but he also knows he had guys like Hill, Watkins, Robinson, and Kelce that can make plays for him when he needs one. Who on the Jets does Sam know will make a play when he needs it.

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