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BUF DT Ed Oliver recovering from surgery

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13 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Your memory is flawed.  There were a sh*tload of us that preferred Oliver.  I don't always putz around on the board during the draft, but I certainly was posting in the days leading up to it, and there were a bunch of us pro-Oliver guys, and a bunch of need guys.  IIRC @JiF was the most vocal for Allen.  

I said, **** it, just draft DK Metcalf......lol

 

Anything but another DT.

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I remember this board being practically all-in on Q.  Those of us that lobbied for a different pick were criticized.  I hated the Q pick, didn't want him, was screaming for a trade down but even if not I didn't want yet another useless interior DL for millionth time.   Q ends up being mediocre at best in his rookie year, but even if he were studly, the pick should have been for a position of greater need.  End of story.  

End of story indeed. We had so many needs. One could argue that DT was the best stocked position on the entire team. Just like it was in 2015. The NY Jets love for D linemen over the years in unexplainable.
Dorian Boose
Rick Terry
Dewayne Robertson
Muhammad Wilkerson
Quinton Coples
Sheldon Richardson
Leonard Williams
Nathan Shepherd
Quinnen Williams

All taken with one our first two picks in their respective draft. It’s insanity. And I’m probably missing someone.



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21 hours ago, Dcat said:

I remember this board being practically all-in on Q.  Those of us that lobbied for a different pick were criticized.  I hated the Q pick, didn't want him, was screaming for a trade down but even if not I didn't want yet another useless interior DL for millionth time.   Q ends up being mediocre at best in his rookie year, but even if he were studly, the pick should have been for a position of greater need.  End of story.  

The problem with Q when compared to Oliver is he doesn't  play on the Bills D-line. That was a solid unit before he got there. Yes, the guy has talent but the guys around him are studs. The guys around Q are OK. If anything Q made Leo tradable which I was not happy about at first but there is no denying, his time here was a waste so that is a plus.

Q has shown more in his rookie season than Leo had in 4. I think he was slowed by injury and will be better next season if he stays healthy. From what I have seen, one on one is a miss-match with him. The guy has the abaility to blow up the player in front of him. He just needs to be more consistent.  He seemed lost on plays here and there but that might be from being a rookie.  

Everyone deserves more than a rookie season. Look at Melvin Gordon. He sucked his rookie year while Gurley lit it up. I would say now Gordon is arguably the better back. Some players just take longer to show up.  

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21 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I would have been perfectly fine with Oliver.  If we had to take a DT, he'd better well have the capability of being a pass rusher.  Oliver fits the bill there, and a lot of people here knew he did prior to demonstrating it as a rookie. 

We would have been much happier right now if Oliver would have been the pick.  Especially if we had been able to trade down prior to taking him.  

If Oliver was the pick, his numbers would be similar  to Q because he wouldn't  be playing on the Bills D where they actually have DB's, Edmunds, Hughes,  Murphey, and Phillips. They also play a 4-3 which favors DL over LB's. He's  just in a much better situation than Q.

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13 hours ago, RobR said:

Honest question for you after what just played out after this season. If you could trade QW straight up for Oliver would you do it? 

Let me answer this. 

No, because then you would see Q have a solid season playing next to Philips,  Hughes and Murphy on a 4-3 and Oliver looking pedestrian playing next to McClendon and Anderson with the occasional Shepard and Fatukasi.

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23 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

So Oliver played his rookie season hurt and he still got double Quinine Williams sacks (pun intended).

Go Mike Maccagnan, more proof Coffee rots the brain..

So when did he get hurt?

Early or late?

Of course that Quinnen was playing hurt most of the season doesn't work for our players?

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22 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:
Buffalo Bills defensive tackle Ed Oliver is in Philadelphia this week to have surgery on his groin, he tells me. The 9th overall pick in the 2019 NFL Draft is coming off of a solid rookie campaign recording 43 tackles and 5 sacks #GoBills #BillsMafia
7:02 PM · Jan 13, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

translation: undescended testicles. 

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20 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:


End of story indeed. We had so many needs. One could argue that DT was the best stocked position on the entire team. Just like it was in 2015. The NY Jets love for D linemen over the years in unexplainable.
Dorian Boose
Rick Terry
Dewayne Robertson
Muhammad Wilkerson
Quinton Coples
Sheldon Richardson
Leonard Williams
Nathan Shepherd
Quinnen Williams

All taken with one our first two picks in their respective draft. It’s insanity. And I’m probably missing someone.



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Dorian Boose?  That was that fat ****'s way of replacing Hugh Douglas.  Not exactly a DT.  Coples was supposed to take over for Pace/Thomas.  They only kicked him inside when things didn't work out.  I don't see why you'd go back to Boose without including Ellis/Abraham.  If it is a list of busts, why not include Gholston?  I don't think the number is so astounding, but the recent drafts of interior DL are insane.  Particularly when coupled with the decision to pay Wilkerson.  That was all Maccagnan though.  I don't have a huge problem with the decisions made prior - except that fat **** trading Douglas and ending up with Dorian Boose.   **** him.

13 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The problem with Q when compared to Oliver is he doesn't  play on the Bills D-line. That was a solid unit before he got there. Yes, the guy has talent but the guys around him are studs. The guys around Q are OK. If anything Q made Leo tradable which I was not happy about at first but there is no denying, his time here was a waste so that is a plus.

Q has shown more in his rookie season than Leo had in 4. I think he was slowed by injury and will be better next season if he stays healthy. From what I have seen, one on one is a miss-match with him. The guy has the abaility to blow up the player in front of him. He just needs to be more consistent.  He seemed lost on plays here and there but that might be from being a rookie.  

Everyone deserves more than a rookie season. Look at Melvin Gordon. He sucked his rookie year while Gurley lit it up. I would say now Gordon is arguably the better back. Some players just take longer to show up.  

 

I get the whole situational thing, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion.  Yes, Oliver is in a better situation.  OTOH, I think he would have given us much more flexibility than Quinnen.  I can't imagine how you saw more in Quinnen Williams season than 4 of Leonard.  At least Leonard had one good year.  I ma still hopeful, but Quinnen gets an incomplete. 

I don't have a problem with not deciding a pick is a disaster after one season, but I don't really care what these guys do on their 2nd contracts.  Making hay while they are on their rookie deals is the key.  After that, signing them or not is the issue.  I am looking for 2 things with draft picks - value over their rookie deals, and things that don't hit the market.  That is why I have such a problem with the S, ILB, DT sh*t.  Yes Adams is great, but you could pay a guy (say Earl Thomas).  No matter how much you pay, you aren't getting another shot at Patrick Mahomes. 

I also don't think the drop off from UDFA to the best is as great at those positions.  Adams has somewhat proven me wrong this year.  Which hurts more, playing Kyle Phillips while Quinnen is hurt, or Edoga while Beachum is out?  The only other explanation is the need for a "QB on defense" which is why they paid Mosley-and Williamson, and Harris, and traded for Davis.  How many QBs on D do we actually need though?

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9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Dorian Boose?  That was that fat ****'s way of replacing Hugh Douglas.  Not exactly a DT.  Coples was supposed to take over for Pace/Thomas.  They only kicked him inside when things didn't work out.  I don't see why you'd go back to Boose without including Ellis/Abraham.  If it is a list of busts, why not include Gholston?  I don't think the number is so astounding, but the recent drafts of interior DL are insane.  Particularly when coupled with the decision to pay Wilkerson.  That was all Maccagnan though.  I don't have a huge problem with the decisions made prior - except that fat **** trading Douglas and ending up with Dorian Boose.   **** him.

 

I get the whole situational thing, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion.  Yes, Oliver is in a better situation.  OTOH, I think he would have given us much more flexibility than Quinnen.  I can't imagine how you saw more in Quinnen Williams season than 4 of Leonard.  At least Leonard had one good year.  I ma still hopeful, but Quinnen gets an incomplete. 

I don't have a problem with not deciding a pick is a disaster after one season, but I don't really care what these guys do on their 2nd contracts.  Making hay while they are on their rookie deals is the key.  After that, signing them or not is the issue.  I am looking for 2 things with draft picks - value over their rookie deals, and things that don't hit the market.  That is why I have such a problem with the S, ILB, DT sh*t.  Yes Adams is great, but you could pay a guy (say Earl Thomas).  No matter how much you pay, you aren't getting another shot at Patrick Mahomes. 

I also don't think the drop off from UDFA to the best is as great at those positions.  Adams has somewhat proven me wrong this year.  Which hurts more, playing Kyle Phillips while Quinnen is hurt, or Edoga while Beachum is out?  The only other explanation is the need for a "QB on defense" which is why they paid Mosley-and Williamson, and Harris, and traded for Davis.  How many QBs on D do we actually need though?

Sounds like your problem is the position drafted and not the player so the Oliver vs Q really isn't  the issue. 

We all would have been happy had we drafted Mahomes or Watson but it didn't  happen. It's  strange it didn't  considering the crap at QB we had but that is an argument for another thread. 

I get what your saying and agree with most of it but you seem to be glazing over the situation both players are in. The biggest difference isn't  even the players these 2 play with, it's  the scheme.  Q is in a 3-4 where the DT basically apply pressure up the middle trying to collapse the pocket and Oliver is in an attacking 4-3 where the DE's rush from the edge. That is huge. 

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Two top 10 picks.

Quinnen played in 13 games, Oliver played in 16

5 sacks to 2.5.

This story isn't close to having been written yet but those who wanted Oliver are celebrating over who knows. The real story is we should have drafted Allen.  Or traded down if possible 

Right now there is no we should have drafted Oliver.  

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5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Sounds like your problem is the position drafted and not the player so the Oliver vs Q really isn't  the issue. 

We all would have been happy had we drafted Mahomes or Watson but it didn't  happen. It's  strange it didn't  considering the crap at QB we had but that is an argument for another thread. 

I get what your saying and agree with most of it but you seem to be glazing over the situation both players are in. The biggest difference isn't  even the players these 2 play with, it's  the scheme.  Q is in a 3-4 where the DT basically apply pressure up the middle trying to collapse the pocket and Oliver is in an attacking 4-3 where the DE's rush from the edge. That is huge. 

My problem is that Oliver appears to be a rare athlete and Quinnen Williams (like Leonard before him) merely a good one.  I think our biggest difference of opinion is where you think that Gregg Williams played a 2 gap 3-4 with the DT only applying pressure up the middle.  I don't see it, and if Williams could get pressure any other way they'd be doing it - though of course you can argue about the supporting cast.  I also think Oliver is better suited to play multiple positions and would provide more flexibility.

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How about those who didn't want either one - not QW and not Oliver - unless either or both could be assured of a dozen sacks and another 3-5x that in pressures, regularly collapsing the pocket up the gut, every year. If one of them turns into that, then it'll be good use for us if we're contenders soon, even if neither were nearly such as rookies. 

Taking any defender that high should result in the D seeming to have an extra player on the field. Someone like I described above does that, as it negates the need for regular blitzing to get the same pressure. Same with an edge rusher. Same with a true lockdown corner who doesn't need safety help on his man. Someone merely good (or someone great just at run-stuffing) does not do that. Not even if he's good/solid overall for several years. Anything other than oh-so-special is inadequate use of the type of draft resource that is routinely traded for a pair of 1st rounders, and that's without moving way down to the bottom 10 picks of the round, even if it's not truly chart-value. 

Granted I'm handicapped by not knowing/following these prospects well before the draft, but stepping back from getting infatuated with a prospect, they should have traded down or - if staying up there because we allegedly couldn't get chart value - taken an edge rusher (in this case Allen was the only prospect valued with a top 5 pick, give or take, so far as I recall). It's not just the way-higher number of sacks, though that difference certainly is significant. It's also triple the number of QB pressures either of them generated. 

I'm not so deeply moved by the "if we trade down for more picks we'll just get a greater amount of garbage than the true super stud we need ablahalalah" despite generally seeing the same perennial playoff teams consistently picking outside the top 15-20 overall every year and staying relevant despite it. Especially when our pick was so high we'd get so much greater a return than trading down from several slots lower, and further while being without a much-needed 2nd rounder on top of that for the second straight year (as we've been without a good one for most of the team's existence).

The only reason I was sympathetic to not trading down in 2019, over just taking Allen, is based purely on the nitwit charged with making the picks. 

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Let me answer this. 

No, because then you would see Q have a solid season playing next to Philips,  Hughes and Murphy on a 4-3 and Oliver looking pedestrian playing next to McClendon and Anderson with the occasional Shepard and Fatukasi.

The level of excuses for QW sucking just grew to a new level. 

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6 hours ago, RobR said:

The level of excuses for QW sucking just grew to a new level. 

I'd have to agree. If he was anywhere near expectations, absent injuries that held him back he'd never leave the field in favor of relative nobodies with half his purported talents. 

Still hope he turns it around. Pessimism, optimism, or annoyance at his rookie performance aside, we all do, since he's not going anywhere else anytime soon. 

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15 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Obviously You've never seen me working my magic in small town Iowa taverns.

"small town Iowa taverns" is code for "special ed classes"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GBR

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I get the whole situational thing, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion.  Yes, Oliver is in a better situation.  OTOH, I think he would have given us much more flexibility than Quinnen.  I can't imagine how you saw more in Quinnen Williams season than 4 of Leonard.  At least Leonard had one good year.  I ma still hopeful, but Quinnen gets an incomplete. 
I don't have a problem with not deciding a pick is a disaster after one season, but I don't really care what these guys do on their 2nd contracts.  Making hay while they are on their rookie deals is the key.  After that, signing them or not is the issue.  I am looking for 2 things with draft picks - value over their rookie deals, and things that don't hit the market.  That is why I have such a problem with the S, ILB, DT sh*t.  Yes Adams is great, but you could pay a guy (say Earl Thomas).  No matter how much you pay, you aren't getting another shot at Patrick Mahomes. 
I also don't think the drop off from UDFA to the best is as great at those positions.  Adams has somewhat proven me wrong this year.  Which hurts more, playing Kyle Phillips while Quinnen is hurt, or Edoga while Beachum is out?  The only other explanation is the need for a "QB on defense" which is why they paid Mosley-and Williamson, and Harris, and traded for Davis.  How many QBs on D do we actually need though?

Hahahahahaaaaa. Gholston!!! Jesus. I felt like I was forgetting some but how the hell???
I wrote that while walking down the hall into a meeting. I’m actually proud of myself for even finding guys like Terry in this mess of a brain I walk around with.

The point remains the same. It’s just the point that for the last 20 years or so the jets numerous regimes have found it extremely attractive to draft DL with the emphasis on DT more than any other positional group I’m pretty sure. It goes back a ways. The last decade has been unreal with how many resources we’ve allotted to the DL.

My hope is that it’s over and over for good. Because interestingly we’ve always done pretty well with our UDFA’s and late rd picks on the DL so using premium draft capital is just dumb.

Ps. Member when Boose led the league in preseason sacks?



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6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd have to agree. If he was anywhere near expectations, absent injuries that held him back he'd never leave the field in favor of relative nobodies with half his purported talents. 

Still hope he turns it around. Pessimism, optimism, or annoyance at his rookie performance aside, we all do, since he's not going anywhere else anytime soon. 

Yeah.  It is one thing to excuse his lack of production because he played next to McClendon, Anderson and Phillips, but shouldn't he have looked as good as those guys?

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I actually didn’t know that. That’s very sad.


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46 minutes ago, Dcat said:

I remember reading somewhere that Bender's death really messed him up. Sad on both counts.

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3 hours ago, RobR said:

The level of excuses for QW sucking just grew to a new level. 

Right, Oliver playing on a team of stud DL has no effect on his production  at all. What was I thinking.

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6 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

If Oliver was the pick, his numbers would be similar  to Q because he wouldn't  be playing on the Bills D where they actually have DB's, Edmunds, Hughes,  Murphey, and Phillips. They also play a 4-3 which favors DL over LB's. He's  just in a much better situation than Q.

No, not really.  He has elite athleticism and can actually get to the QB.  His situation only played a small part in his success as a rookie.  And if you insist on playing that game, Quinnen was in a perfectly fine situation with other strong DL surrounding him and Gregg Williams running the D.  Quinnen is meh.  Oliver has a chance to be very good.  

People need to stop it with the "weaponzzz" argument at every position on the field.  This stuff is getting quite old.  Watch them play.  Oliver is better, and significantly so as a pass rusher.  Stop with all of the silly excuses every time a Jets player looks bad and another player in the league looks good.  It's lame. Sometimes its as simple as one player being better than another.  It's not always someone else's fault.  

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Right, Oliver playing on a team of stud DL has no effect on his production  at all. What was I thinking.

So lame.  The DL surrounding Quinnen were very good too.  And all of the other Jets DL were far more productive than Quinnen.  These are not legitimate excuses.

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49 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, not really.  He has elite athleticism and can actually get to the QB.  His situation only played a small part in his success as a rookie.  And if you insist on playing that game, Quinnen was in a perfectly fine situation with other strong DL surrounding him and Gregg Williams running the D.  Quinnen is meh.  Oliver has a chance to be very good.  

People need to stop it with the "weaponzzz" argument at every position on the field.  This stuff is getting quite old.  Watch them play.  Oliver is better, and significantly so as a pass rusher.  Stop with all of the silly excuses every time a Jets player looks bad and another player in the league looks good.  It's lame. Sometimes its as simple as one player being better than another.  It's not always someone else's fault.  

Your opinion.  That defense was stacked before he got there. The Jets D was held together with badages. Strong DL? Anderson is a nice DL, so is McClendon but they aren't  even close to what The Bills have and if you don't  think playing in a 4-3 helps, i woud say you don't  understand DL play. 

I never said Oliver was not a special player, he is but Q was injured in what, the first game he played and came back in 3 weeks from an injury that has taken others 6 to 8 weeks to come back from? Obviously he wasn't  100%. As far as Olivers groin, i don't  recall this ever being mentioned during the season so it's  possible that happened in the playoffs.

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50 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So lame.  The DL surrounding Quinnen were very good too.  And all of the other Jets DL were far more productive than Quinnen.  These are not legitimate excuses.

Yes, they are good, bery good os a stretch.  The Bills DL is great. Tell me you wouldn't  trade Anderson and McClendon for Murphy  and Hughes.  

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6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Two top 10 picks.

Quinnen played in 13 games, Oliver played in 16

5 sacks to 2.5.

This story isn't close to having been written yet but those who wanted Oliver are celebrating over who knows. The real story is we should have drafted Allen.  Or traded down if possible 

Right now there is no we should have drafted Oliver.  

Agree 100%.

It should have been Allen or a trade down, and not Quinnen OR Oliver there at #3.

Oliver played a few more games and had a couple more sacks, big deal.  PFF has them roughly equal (with Quinnen actually graded higher for the season).  The real debate around here shouldn't be QW vs. Oliver it should be (and always is!) DT vs. any other position.  But that was Macc being Macc with his BPA approach.

If Macc's car had a flat tire on the side of the road he'd end up buying a high quality oil filter instead of an average replacement tire because it was the "best automobile product available" at the store.  The dude was a fool.

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13 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Your opinion.  That defense was stacked before he got there. The Jets D was held together with badages. Strong DL? Anderson is a nice DL, so is McClendon but they aren't  even close to what The Bills have and if you don't  think playing in a 4-3 helps, i woud say you don't  understand DL play. 

I never said Oliver was not a special player, he is but Q was injured in what, the first game he played and came back in 3 weeks from an injury that has taken others 6 to 8 weeks to come back from? Obviously he wasn't  100%. As far as Olivers groin, i don't  recall this ever being mentioned during the season so it's  possible that happened in the playoffs.

You keep saying this.  Do you honestly think that Gregg Williams is playing a 2-gap 3-4?  Your argument actually supports Oliver because if he didn't stay home at a lesser school forced to play NT his college production would have been better and everybody probably has him at the very top of their pre-draft boards.

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Your opinion. 

My "opinion" is based on tangible numbers.  Yours is based on hopes, dreams, hypotheticals and lame, meaningless excuses.

Oliver had far better athleticism/SPARQ scores coming out of school, suggesting he'd be a far better pass rusher in the NFL than Q, and the numbers bore that out from a productivity standpoint.  Pretty simple what happened here.  

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All I know is the greatest DT ever Ed Oliver disappeared in the bills playoff game

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55 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

My "opinion" is based on tangible numbers.  Yours is based on hopes, dreams, hypotheticals and lame, meaningless excuses.

Oliver had far better athleticism/SPARQ scores coming out of school, suggesting he'd be a far better pass rusher in the NFL than Q, and the numbers bore that out from a productivity standpoint.  Pretty simple what happened here.  

I really don't  care about his SPARQ score because if that was all that mattered, any moron could run a successful  draft, you have to consider intangibles which is probably the most important thing that sets players apart. 

It's  really amazing how Anderson and McClendon just became as good as the players on the Bills D line so you can make your point. 

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3 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

I really don't  care about his SPARQ score because if that was all that mattered, any moron could run a successful draft

Well I'm here to tell you that SPARQ scores do, in fact, matter.  They don't always tell you who will for sure be successful, but they certainly help rule out the Lorenzo Mauldin's and Jachai Polite's of the world.  It was clear that Macc didn't use analytics like that, hence a big reason he was such a failure.

SPARQ once again proved it mattered in this case.  Whatever reasons you want to give for Oliver's success as a rookie, his athleticism shined through as a pro.

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20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Well I'm here to tell you that SPARQ scores do, in fact, matter.  They don't always tell you who will for sure be successful, but they certainly help rule out the Lorenzo Mauldin's and Jachai Polite's of the world.  It was clear that Macc didn't use analytics like that, hence a big reason he was such a failure.

SPARQ once again proved it mattered in this case.  Whatever reasons you want to give for Oliver's success as a rookie, his athleticism shined through as a pro.

Stop it. It's  one metric. It doesn't  tell you one player is better than another. 

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46 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Stop it. It's  one metric. It doesn't  tell you one player is better than another. 

True for most position's but for pass rushers high SPARQ scores are almost always needed for that position to succeed (DE, OLB). Even moreso, for inside pass rush. 

I can't think of too many low SPARQ scoring pass rushers, tbh. Inside pass rushers that pressure the qb like Donald, Atkins, Cox, Watt, McCoy, Ngata, Casey, Buckner, Calais Campbell all have high scores. You can find outlier season's but those players aren't consistent with their productio. I'm hopeful the Q pick works out but i get the feeling it will be the final parting gift from that jackass Mac that leaves us remembering how awful he really was. Literally Allen, Oliver, trade down, Metcalf, Burns, or many others would all have been better picks just based off positional value alone.

And the whole Bills D point is overblown IMO. True Buffalo has a good defense but it's mostly because of their amazing secondary (White, Poyer, Hyde). So Oliver may be getting some coverage sack opportunities but watching his sacks, most came off of a good pass rush move. Murphy had 5 sacks and Jerry Hughes 4.5, and Hughes hasn't had a 10 sack season since 2014. Let's not make them out to be Freeney/Mathis.

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2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Stop it. It's  one metric. It doesn't  tell you one player is better than another. 

Yes it does, lol.  Or more accurately it's a prerequisite.  Athleticism means more for pass rushers than any other position on the field.  If you have stiff hips (like Lorenzo Mauldin), you're never going to be a good pass rusher.  If you have high scores you at least have a chance at being an elite pass rusher.  

It's been proven time and time again that SPARQ is a highly useful tool for projecting pass rushers' success.  Thus, your opinion on the Oliver vs. Quinnen debate is not meaningful because you're ignoring some of the most important aspects of what makes a pass rusher a pass rusher, and instead trying to pin the disparity on external factors that really aren't very meaningful.  

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8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes it does, lol.   

This is really good to know. If JD doesn't  work out, I'm going to apply for the job. At my interview i'll just tell them i have a foolproof method of selecting the best players in the draft, all i have to do is draft the player still on the board with the highest sparq. I'm sure that will impress the Hell out of them.

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