Tony Pauline on Leveon Bell+more

[Jetster]

31 minutes ago, SAR I said:

I can understand fans who criticize an offensive coordinators inability to get the QB going or a WR going.  That's all about scheme, deception, personnel, pre-snap reads, etc.  Very sophisticated.  Extremely scientific.  No question there.  OC earns his money.

But a running back?  You've got 5 fat guys up front who can slide left, slide right, or pull.  There's an A gap and a B gap, sometimes a C.  The ball goes to the RB and the fat guys either make their blocks or they don't, the RB either bursts through the hole or he doesn't.  RB is like a tennis player, it's an individual sport at that point, he's either talented enough with his vision and body control or he isn't. 

You blame a weak passing game on the OC.  But a weak ground game?  That's on the GM and the RB. 

SAR I

Just go back in history & see how many rookie RBs came out college smoking hot. Many, many guys have. RB is not rocket science when it comes to RUNNING THE BALL. The schemes are laid out in a High School (many high school coaches played college ball), then when they go to College, then onto the Pros, where most of the Oline coaches came from the College ranks. Not rocket science. Usually the only difference is pass blocking. 

Jets had 4 issues at RB this year. #1- THE OLINE STINKS!, #2- Bell is 3/4 of what he was in Pittsburgh in 2017, Powell's been toast for years & Montgomery is a slow WR playing RB. 

But, but, Gase system is terrible & he's putting round pegs in square holes. How about he's trying to get 3 slow guys to run through a crack the size of a quarter without TE, no #1 WR, and some guy who spells Vyncint with a Y & not an I. 

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Jetster said:

Bell WAS a great back. Unfortunately the Pittsburgh Steelers were the beneficiary of that greatness not the NY Jets. 31 teams could have signed Le'veon Bell, actually 32 because the Steelers could have kept him by giving in to his demands. 

Of course Macc & the NY Jets basically bid against ourselves like we always do. I'm loving the difference in management & coaching. We have our QB & these guys aren't afraid to do what's best for the team OVERALL. TEAM. The Jets have always been about a guy here, a star there. It's about time it stops. 

We have a stout Dline. We have a QB. We need the stout oline & a few missing pcs to the puzzle, WRs, young RBs, a CB & Edge Rusher. That's the job JD is paid to do. The next 2 years are critical for the next 10. 

Hear hear.

We just finished the season 6-2 with Bell contributing essentially nothing.  What is it that people say-  that's right, the Jets "played the easiest second-half schedule against the worst teams in the NFL", right?

4 games he failed to get 50 yards.

5 games he failed to average 4 yards per carry.

8 games and he scored 2 TD's on the ground in total.

8 games he was targeted as a receiver an average of 5x per game, 0 TD's.

If Le'Veon Bell were an elite NFL back, he would be putting up big numbers against the NFL's weaklings.  If the team was good enough to have the second-best record in the entire league in the second-half of the season, there is no reason for a well-rested so-called elite player to suck like this.  This isn't coaching.  This is talent.  OL or RB or both.

SAR I

[Integrity28]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It means that he averaged 4.0 YPC running behind three pro bowlers in Pittsburgh 

Eh, look at his usage. A back that's asked to kill clock in the 4th quarter is going to hurt his ypc average, that's just a fact. You're also leaving out his receiving statistics, which was the entire argument for why he was a good addition. If you want a 5ypc back, you draft one. If you want a veteran who can pass protect and be a 5-7 catches per game target for your young QB, then Bell fits the bill... problem is, he wasn't really used that way.

[section314]

Bell and Q are why Macc got fired.

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, carlito1171 said:

The one time the Jets actually sign one of my fav players in the league....the HC doesn't want him/refuses to coach to his strengths

Are you saying that he should have been targeted as a receiver more than 5x a game?  Crowder was targeted 7x.  Anderson was targeted 6x.  Bell at 5x as a featured running back seems generous.

As a running back, Bell's "strength" has always been that he is a great improviser.  Takes a broken playcall or a hole that didn't open and shuffles laterally until something develops and then he bursts through that new hole.  I didn't see Gase put Bell in a box.  I didn't see Bell being asked to rumble around like a fullback.  I saw Gase letting Bell be Bell and Bell going backwards as often as he went forwards. 

SAR I

 

[Jetster]

6 minutes ago, section314 said:

Bell and Q are why Macc got fired.

Quincy or QW?

[SAR I]

51 minutes ago, JiF said:

I love how you think this means something.  And I love how you full on ignore the fact that all 3 Rb's who were carrying the Football for the NY Jets had the worst season of their careers this year.  Powell, Montgomery and Bell all had the worst ypc of their career.

 

A known Bottom 5 OL couldn't withstand 4 of 5 players being injured at the same time?

Shocker.

SAR I

[section314]

2 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Quincy or QW?

QW.

[bla bla bla]

 

 

 

Where do we think the most likely trade spots will be?

[Jetster]

9 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Are you saying that he should have been targeted as a receiver more than 5x a game?  Crowder was targeted 7x.  Anderson was targeted 6x.  Bell at 5x as a featured running back seems generous.

As a running back, Bell's "strength" has always been that he is a great improviser.  Takes a broken playcall or a hole that didn't open and shuffles laterally until something develops and then he bursts through that new hole.  I didn't see Gase put Bell in a box.  I didn't see Bell being asked to rumble around like a fullback.  I saw Gase letting Bell be Bell and Bell going backwards as often as he went forwards. 

SAR I

 

He went backwards more than forward until he finally listened to Gase tell him +3 yards is better than -2. 

Thats why companies hire young guys not old guys set in their ways. Gase has a set of Brass Balls & said, "This is the way we do it". I love that he's not afraid to do it his way. All we've had is milktoast coaches listening to the players including Rex. Rex rode a great Oline to 2 division championships & then his big mouthed defense got the ball run down their f*cking throat in Pittsburgh. 

What was Bells longest run this year? No one thought about Barry Sanders losing yardage, because he could go the distance on any play. I don't think Bell could ever GO THE DISTANCE ANYMORE. 

Hoping for Travis Ettienne in this upcoming draft. Perfect plant & go RB for Gase. 

[SAR I]

54 minutes ago, Dcat said:

No SAR.  It is not "on Bell".  It's on Gase.  Gase calls the plays and sets the offense.  You're trying to blame it all on personnel and that is pure bullcrap.  Gase's offense is amorphous and it cannot be blamed exclusively on personnel.

If we were talking about a QB or WR I would agree with you.  Schemes, alignments, deception, pre-snap reads, that's a very complex part of the game.

But RB?  That's not complex.  That doesn't take Mensa caliber offensive coordination.  When was the last time anyone called out an innovative ground strategy?  Gibbs zone blocking in the 80's? 

And one of Bell's known strengths is improvisation.  Hole isn't there, he wiggles laterally, hides behind a lineman, and then bursts to daylight.  We saw none of that this year.  He was either hit for no gain or a loss (seemingly on every series) or made it through a hole (yay!) and got tackled immediately (boo!).  Point being, for a great RB who is known for making busted plays something special, he brought none of that Pittsburgh magic to New Jersey.

SAR I

[Apache 51]

6 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

 

 

 

Where do we think the most likely trade spots will be?

Redskins

[SAR I]

51 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Hey, we disagree about Darnold. You don't end up ranked 10th in QBR when your Oline ends up ranked at 32 without skills. 

There is no doubt in my mind watching this team that Sam Darnold dealt with more 2nd & 3rd & longs than any QB in this league. Our running game was abysmal. 

Anyone who watches the NFL agrees that the Jets have one of the worst offensive rosters in football & that was B4 they lost Quincy & Herndon, then Griffin. 

Unlike you, I can't wait to see Sam play confidently behind a solid Oline & all of his weapons available to him. He played with a clock in his head & the ball would explode in 2 seconds after the snap. That's a tough way to play QB.

This.  A thousand times this.

Darnold had a fantastic season.  His growth has been astounding.  No, not in metrics.  But this guy is now pressure-tested under the worst possible circumstances and still found a way to win 6 of his last 8 games.  I've never been more confident that he's our 10 year franchise quarterback.

OL and WR's.  That's what he needs.  TE we are good.  RB we can fix with a disposable north/south guy in the draft.  OL and WR's.  Has to be JD's focus.

SAR I

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

We can lose with'em and we can lose without'em .

[bla bla bla]

6 minutes ago, Apache 51 said:

Redskins

A solid option with Guice not showing much and Peterson's career almost over.

[Jetster]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

This.  A thousand times this.

Darnold had a fantastic season.  His growth has been astounding.  No, not in metrics.  But this guy is now pressure-tested under the worst possible circumstances and still found a way to win 6 of his last 8 games.  I've never been more confident that he's our 10 year franchise quarterback.

OL and WR's.  That's what he needs.  TE we are good.  RB we can fix with a disposable north/south guy in the draft.  OL and WR's.  Has to be JD's focus.

SAR I

Wait until he settles down & feels safe in the pocket. He can throw ANYWHERE on the field with accuracy which means when he has 3 legitimate weapons behind a decent Oline, he won't be in such a hurry, which will increase his chances of wide open lanes to run through too. Wait until Sam is comfortable enough to take those 1st downs with his legs instead of pressing downfield. 

He's gonna be a PITA for defenses surrounded with weapons & an upgraded Oline. 

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

Ahh that explains it, I'd assume it will return in one form or another though and dont think Bells contract prevents us from moving him

You can Trade him at a cost of a few million, if you cut him it will cost his salary this year plus the rest of his signing bonus... I think 19 Million total but I could be wrong. And then any team can sign him for a double dip.

[JustInFudge]

20 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It means that he averaged 4.0 YPC running behind three pro bowlers in Pittsburgh 

And his replacement added, what a whopping .3 more in ypc?  You're repeating this like it matters when it doesnt.  The other thing you leave out about that season is that he was #2 in the league in yards from scrimmage but you know, details.  

The more relevant point that you ignore is every single RB on the NY Jets enjoyed the worst season of their career.  That's what's relevant because it speaks to the bigger issue, the OL.  You know, the one you use to defend Gase anytime anyone questions why his offense was once again, incompetent.   

[CTM]

39 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Yup, agree. It's possible that he looked crumby because he took time off, or he's old. Hard to really assess, and I don't trust Gase's evaluation - purely because he's made it fact that he's failed to evaluate properly in the past. 

I mean, I was reading something the other day totally unrelated to the Jets or Gase, and as a means of emphasizing a point, it referenced Gase's reputation for mis-evaluating his players. 

At the end of the day, Bell wasn't a good $$$ signing by Macc = dud, shocker. Now, we have a situation where we're not sure what the truth is, because the Gase hire by Macc also = dud, shocker.

I think Gase is a stubborn ass who didn't want Bell originally and is willing to cut his own nose off to spite his face.

I also think Bell has lost two steps from 2015 and would need to find himself in a great situation to ever again get close to his heyday. I was impressed with the way he handled himself given the poor #'s so I have nothing against Bell. I just think we'd be better served with someone the manchild wants who has a bit more burst

 

[Guilhermezmc]

JK dobbins

[Augustiniak]

Just now, CTM said:

I think Gase is a stubborn ass who didn't want Bell originally is willing to cut his own nose off to spite his face.

I also think Bell has lost two steps from 2015 and would need to find himself in a great situation to ever again get close to his heyday. Although I was impressed with the way he handled himself given the poor #'s. Nothing against Bell, I just think we'd be better served with someone the manchild wants who has a bit more burst

 

my take FWIW:

- gase likes smaller, faster rbs, which is why when he was at miami they traded ajayi.  

- gase thought bell had 'lost a step' and didn't want the diva rep that he came with

- putting this together, gase didn't use bell the way he was used in pittsburgh

- all this said, the importance of quick, pass catching rbs can't be emphasized enough.  this is the main reason (along with gronk) that the patriots were able to swap wrs in and out of their offense.  the key components were gronk and the rbs.  

- regardless of whether the jets trade bell or have him in 2020, douglas will draft a rb in the 3rd round this year.  

[CTM]

7 minutes ago, JiF said:

And his replacement added, what a whopping .3 more in ypc? You're repeating this like it matters when it doesnt. 

Replacement level player improves YPC of supposed elite player by  8% 

Conclusion: Belle is still elite

[T0mShane]

44 minutes ago, Dcat said:

Gase got rid of Drake because the fans were screaming for him to use Drake. 

Gase didn’t get rid of Drake. The Dolphins traded Drake for a conditional sixth in October 2019 because he was —gasp—misused by the Dolphins —gasp—after Gase was gone
 

The Cardinals struck fast in order to acquire Drake, who was the Dolphins' leading rusher with 55.1 percent of the snaps this season, but not used properly in Miami. Drake was averaging a career low 3.7 yards per carry in 47 carries, having just 174 yards and no touchdowns this year.

[JustInFudge]

33 minutes ago, SAR I said:

A known Bottom 5 OL couldn't withstand 4 of 5 players being injured at the same time?

Shocker.

SAR I

Bell's fault he didnt set the world on fire.  Not Darnold'sfault he didnt set the world on fire.  Not Gase's fault he couldnt run a comptent offense.

#TomShanelogic.

 

[peebag]

14 hours ago, Beerfish said:

With our oline any Jets back is like this:

 

The coyote remained standing, so therefore you're wrong.

[jetstream23]

5 hours ago, CTM said:

1) 2 years older at a position known to breakdown right around Bells age

2) was ran into the ground in Pittsburgh particularly his last year.

3) Speaking of his last year he saw a clear regression in all of his per carry stats (nearly a 20% drop in YPC)

4) Strong Oline vs Weak Oline 

5) HoF QB putting up top 3-8 numbers vs young QB putting up bottom 3 numbers

Naturally the only logical conclusion here is that Gase sucking is the sole reason for Bell sucking because we dont like Gase and  Drake played well this year 

 

 

Good points.  You answered the Bell question but what about Drake under Gase and now lighting it up in Arizona?

I'm asking simply because I don't have an answer.  We all know the OLine here sucked, we didn't have the same caliber of WRs and a young Sam Darnold is nowhere near an "in his prime" Ben Roethlisberger.  But I'm curious as to what RBs have been successful under Gase?

Do we think the Jets will ever have a successful, run-first team with a 1,200 yard rusher again under this regime?

[BCJet]

2 hours ago, KRL said:

If Bell isn't here next year it will be nothing but a HUGE stain on Gase.  To have
a RB of Bell's production and not being able to do anything with him is ridiculous.
Granted the OLine wasn't good, but Bell should have been used more in the screen game
and running WR routes

KRL - there is no place for logic in this thread, please keep your well thought out posts to yourself. 

Reading through some of these responses is downright comical. You guys think Bell is “old”, he will be 27 on opening day with a full year off included in the time he was “run into the ground”. 

Even if we discount his running, which was behind a line that finished as a historically bad group (mind you not “bad” historically inept) the guy is an elite receiver out of the backfield and in the slot and guess what......our coach didn’t throw to him. Probably because he was too old. 

Lets hope Gase gets rid of another back he underused and watch him thrive once he leaves. You guys should watch a few of Kenyon Drake’s games from this year.  I guess he doesn’t have the style that Adam Gase likes either. 

[BCJet]

3 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Good points.  You answered the Bell question but what about Drake under Gase and now lighting it up in Arizona?

I'm asking simply because I don't have an answer.  We all know the OLine here sucked, we didn't have the same caliber of WRs and a young Sam Darnold is nowhere near an "in his prime" Ben Roethlisberger.  But I'm curious as to what RBs have been successful under Gase?

Do we think the Jets will ever have a successful, run-first team with a 1,200 yard rusher again under this regime?

Guys the answer is very easy - for 3 years in Miami and a year here there is one constant, it’s never Adam Gase’s fault. 

Injuries, the OL, “not my guys” - Gase doesn’t understand its his JOB to get the most out of the roster he’s given. Bell isn’t some 4th round rookie who Gase didn’t pick. He is a player who was on a hall of fame pace, practices hard, is respected in the locker room and can run, catch and pass protect. What else should he do?

Let me know when Gase takes responsibility for something and then maybe we can respect what he does as a coach.  

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Dcat said:

There is NO EXCUSE... none...nada for Gase not using Bell as a pass catcher.  It was absolutely ridiculous.  Gase ignores, for a full f-ing season no less, one of Bell's strongest skills.

Explain that.  You can't. 

These are the top 5 RB's ranked by receiving yards.  Bell is essentially in a 3 way tie for 6th.  That's not Gase ignoring Bell. 

McCaffrey is a generational player and the Panthers had no QB, dump-off city instead of a traditional handoff.

Ekeler was inflated because Gordon held out and the Chargers OL was bad.  When Gordon came back as the featured back for 12 games, Ekeler was essentially a WR, their Crowder if you will.

Take those two anomalies out of it, Bell was used properly as a receiver.  Within 6 receptions of White.  Yards per reception on par with Fournette and Kamara.  We had Crowder getting cheap yards.  Sam has mobility unlike Rivers. 

What, are you contending that we should have made Powell the feature back and kept Bell as a slot receiver like the Chargers with Gordon and Ekeler?  What DC would have respected Powell?  Bell was essentially the same receiver as Kamara, Fournette, and White.  I don't see the issue.

SAR I

 

 

[varjet]

If the Jets can move Bell on and get a draft pick and have someone take his salary, given that Gase does not want to or does not know how to use him, to me that is a good thing even if Gase is being Gase.

But I think the likelihood of that is very low.  If Bell is stuck on the team, Gase needs to find a way to use him creatively.   We are talking about a team in 2020 with currently no receivers.  No one believes that Gase did his best to have Bell help Darnold last year.   But just because a player does better without Gase does not necessarily mean Gase is bad, if Gase has another answer for a good offense without that player.  I don’t know whether Drake was going to be successful on the 49ers.  Coleman was and Gase wanted him.    So if Gase wants to put together a 49er style offense, have at it.  

But Gase will have fewer excuses next year, and if he is stuck with Bell it is his job to be creative and use him.  If he is around in 2021 ,it will be easier to get rid of Bell and put his own RB into place, but whether he is around in 2021 will depend on how well Gase coaches the players that he selects AND that he is stuck with. 

[The Voice of Reason]

18 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Good points.  You answered the Bell question but what about Drake under Gase and now lighting it up in Arizona?

I'm asking simply because I don't have an answer.  We all know the OLine here sucked, we didn't have the same caliber of WRs and a young Sam Darnold is nowhere near an "in his prime" Ben Roethlisberger.  But I'm curious as to what RBs have been successful under Gase?

Do we think the Jets will ever have a successful, run-first team with a 1,200 yard rusher again under this regime?

If Drake was so great why was he benched in Miami, after Gase left and in college for Yeldon as @T0mShane pointed out.  I think there is an attitude problem with him that he isn't picking up blocks or freelancing too much... There is something up if he is consistently benched by more coaches then just Gase. Also Drake thriving in ARZ may have more to do with the style of offense the Kingsbury is running and opportunity because they had no-one else. 

The type of back Gase needs is Freeman type RB... This year he needed a Derek Henry type for Bettis type back to wear out defenses because the Jets didn't have a bruiser... But Freeman type style would be great for Gase in the future with a competent line (One cut and hit the hole hard with good hands).

[playtowinthegame]

[CTM]

24 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Good points.  You answered the Bell question but what about Drake under Gase and now lighting it up in Arizona?

I'm asking simply because I don't have an answer.  We all know the OLine here sucked, we didn't have the same caliber of WRs and a young Sam Darnold is nowhere near an "in his prime" Ben Roethlisberger.  But I'm curious as to what RBs have been successful under Gase?

Do we think the Jets will ever have a successful, run-first team with a 1,200 yard rusher again under this regime?

I honestly don't know about Drake because I never looked into it, nor am I worried about Gase designing a successful rushing attack in general. More concerned about how Darnold develops.

I think Connor in Pitts went from a 4.5 YPC to a 4.0 YPC this year and I'd feel comfortable assuming the loss of Pig Ben was a large factor, which could point to the Darnold downgrade being a factor

I know our oline was nowhere near as good as Pitts.

To me, Bell being older, the weak oline and the downgrade at QB are all far more likely to be the primary driver of Bell's poor season that anything Gase is doing.

[HawkeyeJet]

A point I rarely see mentioned in RB usage(as it relates to Drake in this discussion) is that sometimes guys in limited roles simply aren't capable of sustaining their production with a usage increase.  It's very possible Drake fits into that  category.  Did Gase not use him enough, or did Gase (and every other coach Drake's ever played for) know that he's a risk to dip in production with an expanded work load?

Remember when Shonn Greene was a backup and looked like a stud?  Then went to full time and looked average at best?  Certain guys are just better suited for smaller work loads.  It's just that simple.

[Prestige Worldwide]

Would jetnation implode if they trade bell and sign Drake as a free agent this year?