The QB position has evolved. The future is here now.

[slimjasi]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Context doesn’t matter to him when speaking about Darnold. OL doesn’t matter, weapons don’t matter, all I know is he’s mediocre.

It's fine to have biases and like some guys more than others. And people are allowed to think whatever they want about any of these guys. We are all guessing about the future. You think Allen will end up being better than Darnold? Sure, you could be right. Only time will tell. 

But currently, the individual metrics people use to evaluate QBs don't support the notion that Allen is anything other than the 4th best QB taken in his draft class. Additionally, his combination of poor accuracy, a pronounced lack of passing yards, and being carried to winning a season by a strong defense, does remind me of Sanchez. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, JiF said:

I ultimately ended up convinced by @Lupz27 but my biggest contention the whole time was the Big 12 piece.  It was hard to get over and rightfully so based on this data and how bad Mayflower and Rudolph are.

Brandon Weeden, Bryce Petty, Graham Harrell etc

[Patriot Killa]

5 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Speaking of the future of QBs

This shows you how good he is and also a small reason (wrongly) why he fell to 12 in the draft

I would only say wrongly in hindsight. 

At the time he was extremely raw and played bad competition. I’ll scream it forever, Reid is the true QB whisper, he let Mahome sit and learn. Mahomes took advantage .

[UntouchableCrew]

There seems to be some confusion about what makes a QB "mobile." Comparing Mahomes to Lamar Jackson is absurd.

Mahomes had 218 yards rushing this year -- in 2018 Darnold had 138. Mahomes is just a great athlete who can make plays running when he needs to. He's more similar to prime Aaron Rodgers than a running QB like Jackson. Claiming "mobile QBs like Mahomes" are taking over the league is idiotic since he doesn't really run much and doesn't take hits. QBs like him have always been around.

The two guys you listed -- Newton and RGIII -- as the early prototypes for running QBs basically had their careers derailed from the beatings they took running the ball and the same will happen to Jackson if they keep running him like that. Jackson rushed for 1200 yards this year -- he was sixth in the league in rushing and 4x a guy like Watson. That's not sustainable and if you think Jackson is the template for what a QB should be in today's NFL I think you're dead wrong. In the playoffs his team fell behind by 13 points and he couldn't do anything.

Mahomes is going to rule the league for the next ten years but it's more about his arm talent, accuracy, and overall athleticism than his ability to run. The jury is just as much out on most of the other guys you mentioned as it is on Darnold.

[UnitedWhofans]

Mahomes is more astute than most of these running QBs in their decision making. For example what separates him and Deshaun Watson is that Mahomes makes a quicker decision whether to run the ball or throw. Watson kind of waits a little bit longer and it leads to him taking more sacks

[Patriot Killa]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It's fine to have biases and like some guys more than others. And people are allowed to think whatever they want about any of these guys. We are all guessing about the future. You think Allen will end up being better than Darnold? Sure, you could be right. Only time will tell. 

But currently, the individual metrics people use to evaluate QBs don't support the notion that Allen is anything other than the 4th best QB taken in his draft class. Additionally, his combination of poor accuracy, a pronounced lack of passing yards, and being carried to winning a season by a strong defense, does remind me of Sanchez. 

He threw ducks in OT. He couldn’t connect on passes that I know, for a fact, Darnold could of hit on in his sleep. If the Jets ever find the right coach in time, they’re gonna easily show you how much better Sam Darnold is than any QB in this class. Yeah, including the Jackson guy.

[GKnight83]

Horse-hockey!  Defenses will attune - just like they always do.  We might end up with a hybrid MLB who is mobile and can tackle.  I just hope it does not end up like to NBA.  I hate all offense and no defense.

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Mahomes is more astute than most of these running QBs in their decision making. For example what separates him and Deshaun Watson is that Mahomes makes a quicker decision whether to run the ball or throw. Watson kind of waits a little bit longer and it leads to him taking more sacks

Mahomes see’s zone, he’s taking off, he’s a very smart QB. I watched him take advantage of pre-snap reads all day yesterday. He ate them alive all on his own.

[Scott Dierking]

This conversation comes up every 2-3 years. And then teams adjust.

Weird.

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Mahomes see’s zone, he’s taking off, he’s a very smart QB. I watched him take advantage of pre-snap reads all day yesterday. He ate them alive all on his own.

He is one of the best of the athletic breed of qb at the pre-snap read. Steve Young was another.

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

He threw ducks in OT. He couldn’t connect on passes that I know, for a fact, Darnold could of hit on in his sleep. If the Jets ever find the right coach in time, they’re gonna easily show you how much better Sam Darnold is than any QB in this class. Yeah, including the Jackson guy.

They need to give Darnold a better OL, first and foremost. Time will tell beyond that. I honestly don't know what Darnold is going to be yet. I think he has the chance to be a good starter for a long time, but I could see his career going a few different ways. 

[Patriot Killa]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

They need to give Darnold a better OL, first and foremost. Time will tell beyond that. I honestly don't know what Darnold is going to be yet. I think he has the chance to be a good starter for a long time, but I could see his career going a few different ways. 

OL, yeah but I think he could already had better success/stats if he had a competent play caller/QB developer. I’m not trying to write things in stone here, but just my opinion, with the proper things in place, he could of already had a leap. He’s just got that kind of demeanor and ability. I’ll never forget the poster here who said a QB is only as good as his team situation. Truest statement ever made this year.

[Biggs]

4 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Mahomes is more astute than most of these running QBs in their decision making. For example what separates him and Deshaun Watson is that Mahomes makes a quicker decision whether to run the ball or throw. Watson kind of waits a little bit longer and it leads to him taking more sacks

Mahomes is already one of the smartest QB's in the league.  Highly under rated part of his game.  For a guy with his physical talent and overall confidence it's amazing how often he takes what the d gives him.

[playtowinthegame]

16 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

1) Again - if you are cherry-picking mobile guys around the league, then you aren't really saying anything that interesting. We all know mobility is important. But trying to connect Allen to Mahomes to Jackson to Watson to anyone else who can scramble, doesn't really work that well. 

2) The comparison between Allen/Sanchez is based on the fact that Allen is a "playoff performer" much like Sanchez was a "playoff performer." It's a nice thing to say, until you realize that it is utterly meaningless and has no bearing on what type of QB a guy will develop into.

One might say that Allen was the QB of a playoff team this year, much like Sanchez was the QB of playoff teams in 2009 and 2010. (Unfortunately for Allen, it's tough to even say this without also mentioning that he was awful in his only playoff game)

The other obvious connection they have is that neither has was able to complete 60% of his passes in either of their first two NFL seasons. As others have repeatedly noted, bad accuracy is tough to correct as QBs get older. 

A third potential connection is the lack of 300 yard passing games. Josh Allen, in 27 career starts, has yet to throw for 300 yards in a single game. Not one time. Likewise, Sanchez only threw for 300 yards twice in his first two seasons. This is another potential red flag for "limited passer."

 

3) Since you brought up Darnold - Darnold completed 61.9% of his passes this year and has thrown for 300 yards four times in 26 career starts, despite playing behind a significantly worse offensive line than either Allen or Sanchez had in their first two years. 

The only things Darnold has in common with Sanchez is they both went to USC and were drafted by the Jets. They aren't similar NFL quarterbacks after their first 2 NFL seasons. Put Darnold on a team with the top ranked D and running game and I would be willing to bet he would have done better than Sanchize. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Mahomes is already one of the smartest QB's in the league.  Highly under rated part of his game.  For a guy with his physical talent and overall confidence it's amazing how often he takes what the d gives him.

 

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

He is one of the best of the athletic breed of qb at the pre-snap read. Steve Young was another.

Andy Reid is one hell of a QB developer. Can’t take it away from Mahomes, he put in the work too but my god...he had Pat ready to GO in year 2 and the roster was beyond that measure.

[Scott Dierking]

13 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

 

Andy Reid is one hell of a QB developer. Can’t take it away from Mahomes, he put in the work too but my god...he had Pat ready to GO in year 2 and the roster was beyond that measure.

Reid had a similar skillset in QB with Mcnabb, but Mcnabb never had the innate abilities that Mahomes exhibits. I give the credit to Mahomes.

[Patriot Killa]

15 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Reid had a similar skillset in QB with Mcnabb, but Mcnabb never had the innate abilities that Mahomes exhibits. I give the credit to Mahomes.

I give credit to both but don’t let that make you think it’s not mostly on Pat. Pat is going to be a hall of fame player at his current projection. I love watching him.

[14 in Green]

59 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont typically comment on anything the OP says about QB's because I find his takes and evaluations beyond puzzling and flat out wrong (as we see on display here in this thread).  But I felt completed to call out the hypocrisy of his thread since others have already pointed out how utterly inaccurate it is.  What's ironic is the OP hates Sam Darnold and thinks he's the worst QB in the league, yet the one true undeniable feature that Sam presents as a QB is that he is "strong armed, mobile and  elusive".   If it werent for those abilities, he wouldnt have gone 7-6  as a starter behind a historically bad OL, running for his life with no real supporting cast around him.  It was basically the only positive feature of the the offense in 2019.  Yet, here we are talking about how Josh Allen is changing the game of Football. 

I don't think Darnold is the worst QB in the league. I'd go 26th last year, and 25th this season though.

Oh, and I also do not "hate" a single player in any sport. Unlike some of the more juvenile people here, I don't know any of these players, so I don't hate (or love) any of them.

Finally, I never said Allen is "changing the game of football". Go back and look. I said the more mobile QBs are becoming the future of the QB position.

But "thanks for not commenting.... again. 

55 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

If Josh Allen was worth being talked about, he would of taken advantage of his 18 OT opportunities in the wildcard round and went on to play KC.

Weak. Very weak.

You're better than this.

[Biggs]

18 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Reid had a similar skillset in QB with Mcnabb, but Mcnabb never had the innate abilities that Mahomes exhibits. I give the credit to Mahomes.

In fairness to Reid, he didn't **** him up.  Mahomes also was lucky to get drafted to a good team and sit behind a very smart veteran QB who was willing to let him replace him. Agreed Mahomes is clearly bright, works hard at his craft and has amazing physical tools.  Lots of potentially really good QB's go to bad teams and get a bad foundation at the start.

[Patriot Killa]

5 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Weak. Very weak.

You're better than this.

He can’t throw outside of the hashes just like Lamar can’t. 

 

Yawn.

[Jetsfan80]

I wasn't gushing 80, all I said about him was he was a playoff QB when I included him on the list of young, mobile QBs.
I'm honestly trying not to get into a ranking the QBs thing, but unfortunately, this thread really looks like it's going to end up there.

Well you’ve gushed about Allen in other threads, so I assumed you were doing the same here too.

[14 in Green]

4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

He can’t throw outside of the hashes just like Lamar can’t. 

 

Yawn.

I love when you make s*it up to sound like you're a QB guru. 

I can just imagine the Bills and Ravens war room in the '18 draft... "yeah, let's go with the QB who can't throw outside the hashes."

Yawn.

 

[14 in Green]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Well you’ve gushed about Allen in other threads, so I assumed you were doing the same here too.

 

 

And.... What happens when we assume, young man? ?

[Jetsfan80]

Watching Mahomes yesterday (and pretty much every time I've seen the kid play) should give everyone a clear picture of what this era's prototypical QB could/should be.  Mahomes is fast, elusive, smart, has incredible touch and arm strength, and able to read defenses before the snap or command a complex offense.  
Kudos to Andy and his staff for picking this guy.  His perfect 55 yard pass--on the run and across his body!-- for a TD in the second half is one of the greatest/most impresive throws I've seen in 50+ years of watching the NFL. 

But but but his WEPINZZZ

Mahomes does things no QB in the league can do. It’s so clear.

[Jetsfan80]

And.... What happens when we assume, young man? 

I get another opportunity to rip on Josh Allen?

[Jetsfan80]

Horse-hockey!  Defenses will attune - just like they always do.  We might end up with a hybrid MLB who is mobile and can tackle.  I just hope it does not end up like to NBA.  I hate all offense and no defense.

The rules don’t do the defense any favors, so where will that adjustment come into play?

We’ve seen defenses get smaller and faster, but it hasn’t worked. What else can they draw up that offenses will have difficulty accounting for?

[Jets723]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Well you’ve gushed about Allen in other threads, so I assumed you were doing the same here too.

 

 

I thought he was a Baker guy  ? 

[Jetsfan80]

I thought he was a Baker guy   

 

He’ll get laughed at if he talks about Baker at this point, so he’s turned his focus to Allen.

[Jetsfan80]

Sanchez was groomed to be a professional QB since he was in HS.  Allen walked on to a third rate program and people took notice.  He's gotten the coaches Sanchez had for years before entering the NFL for a total of 2 years now.  

Peter Boyle didn't become Boris Karloff overnight. 

 

All of the info above is why you don’t draft Sanchez or Allen in the fist place, especially not in the top 10.

 

Many times Inexperienced QBs NEVER develop. Especially ones who are also inaccurate and slow processors. Those are 2 qualities that never really improve, at least not to adequate levels.

 

Allen is lucky he has RB abilities or he’d be sunk already. God help him if for whatever reason he’s prevented from running as much as he does.

[Jets723]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

All of the info above is why you don’t draft Sanchez or Allen in the fist place, especially not in the top 10.

 

Many times Inexperienced QBs NEVER develop. Especially ones who are also inaccurate and slow processors. Those are 2 qualities that never really improve, at least not to adequate levels.

 

Allen is lucky he has RB abilities or he’d be sunk already. God help him if for whatever reason he’s prevented from running as much as he does.

Allen is gonna have a tough time in the future if he can’t get his accuracy in order.    The running QBs do tend to get hurt eventually.  Even the Texans game there were a couple times he nearly got crushed.  The Bills did a very good job building a good team to cover that stuff up but if he doesn’t improved his accuracy it’s not gonna last IMO

[Patriot Killa]

32 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I love when you make s*it up to sound like you're a QB guru. 

I can just imagine the Bills and Ravens war room in the '18 draft... "yeah, let's go with the QB who can't throw outside the hashes."

Yawn.

 

You do realize that is effectively what lost the game for the Ravens and Bills, right? 

The game plan was to force throws outside the hashes and it worked. So excuse me if my fairy tale QB guru BS gets thrown around like it has a place in the conversation — because it does. 

I love when you misconstrue mobile QBs and running QBs and the entire board gets on your case about it. I just don’t bring it up.

[14 in Green]

21 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

You do realize that is effectively what lost the game for the Ravens and Bills, right? 

The game plan was to force throws outside the hashes and it worked. So excuse me if my fairy tale QB guru BS gets thrown around like it has a place in the conversation — because it does. 

I love when you misconstrue mobile QBs and running QBs and the entire board gets on your case about it. I just don’t bring it up.

Ahhh, so you're going with the "the best defensive minds in the NFL couldn't figure that out in two years, but those two teams suddenly did it on the same day in the playoffs" reply, huh?

Why? Because an announcer said that during the Ravens game? Okay, fine. I would have gone with the better team won.

As for the thread, it's doing what threads are supposed to do. Drive conversation and content, not become a lovefest like so many which die quickly are. Also feel free to bring up whatever you like. You and I agree quite often, we're allowed to differ once in a while, I'm okay with that, and I know you are too.

 

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

The only "category I have Allen in with those 3 is mobility. Not ability.

The Sanchez comp with Allen is funny though. Personally I'd comp Sanchez with another QB from the '18 draft. You know the one. He also came out of USC a year early, also had a disappointing final season there, was drafted high in the first round by the same team, and had underwhelming seasons his first two years.

But that's just my opinion.

If you want to compare the two on passing abilities, how they play the game and compare Sanchez to Darnold you can.  
its dumb and really goes a long way trying to figure out the praise of Allen or Baker

Now you’re just trolling
 

[Patriot Killa]

17 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Ahhh, so you're going with the "the best defensive minds in the NFL couldn't figure that out in two years, but those two teams suddenly did it on the same day in the playoffs" reply, huh?

Why? Because an announcer said that during the Ravens game? Okay, fine. I would have gone with the better team won.

As for the thread, it's doing what threads are supposed to do. Drive conversation and content, not become a lovefest like so many which die quickly are. Also feel free to bring up whatever you like. You and I agree quite often, we're allowed to differ once in a while, I'm okay with that, and I know you are too.

 

No, I’m not going with that notion in the first sentence of this post. I’m going with the idea that Allen and Jackson are limited passers as it pertains to what areas on the field they can hit naturally. The game plan was to apply pressure and make them throw outside the hashes. In doing that, you force quick decisions to areas in the field where the QB’s lack at most, that in turn, gives a higher % of forcing a turnover. That’s to not to say they cannot adjust and become familiar/better at throwing in those windows but as of right now, lol, it’s totally a valid point and not make believe

I barely listen to what announcers say. I watch and make my own assessments.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

I don't think Darnold is the worst QB in the league. I'd go 26th last year, and 25th this season though.

Oh, and I also do not "hate" a single player in any sport. Unlike some of the more juvenile people here, I don't know any of these players, so I don't hate (or love) any of them.

Finally, I never said Allen is "changing the game of football". Go back and look. I said the more mobile QBs are becoming the future of the QB position.

But "thanks for not commenting.... again. 

Weak. Very weak.

You're better than this.

This thread and responses like this are just a small sample size in a long list of reasons that make it impossible for me to take you serious when it comes to the QB position.  The worst part is, you cant handle being challenged on it as seen by your responses to anyone in here who disagrees and the neg rep you gave me for calling out your hypocrisy.  That's why I stopped discussing this particular topic with you. 

I just couldnt contain myself given your strong hate (for the player, not the person) of Sam Darnold that you started this thread and classified your take with the criteria of "strong armed, mobile, elusive" ie; the exact description of Sam Darnold.