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Villain The Foe

The actual use-case of the NFL Salary Cap.

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You'll take some bullets over this, but I would say I agree with the overall point and many of the specifics.  The purpose of drafting players is surprisingly not so you can turn around and trade the ones that are actually good for more draft picks as if the picks themselves were the end game.  I think some people here have lost sight of that. 

The league will always determine 'market rate' for various positions.  Paying market rate for a top-5 Safety isn't a mistake in a vacuum and as you said, we are not anywhere near the cap situation where we can't afford to keep our guys (i.e. Vikings). 

Now strap on your flame-retardant underwear because the fun is probably going to start very soon.

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The NY Jets don't have much to show from #1 picks over the last 10 years, but we finally get a great one and certain posters hate and want to trade hm. 

51 years and counting.........................

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3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

You'll take some bullets over this, but I would say I agree with the overall point and many of the specifics.  The purpose of drafting players is surprisingly not so you can turn around and trade the ones that are actually good for more draft picks as if the picks themselves were the end game.  I think some people here have lost sight of that. 

The league will always determine 'market rate' for various positions.  Paying market rate for a top-5 Safety isn't a mistake in a vacuum and as you said, we are not anywhere near the cap situation where we can't afford to keep our guys (i.e. Vikings). 

Now strap on your flame-retardant underwear because the fun is probably going to start very soon.

Thanks. I'm listening to folks give their reasons on why they wouldnt resign a guy, and it all sounds as if the league is strapped for funds. These are not organizations living check to check. 

Also, the NFL has to be the only pro league where the contracts themselves arent even fully guaranteed.  I even forgot to mention that part. So most of these contracts dont even be real in terms of real money being spent. 

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The next CBA - they should really push to make players a franchise drafts exempt from the salary cap AFTER their rookie deal expires.  The purpose of the salary cap should be to prevent teams from buying championships.  You shouldn't be punished for drafting well.  

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The biggest fallacy to me, is this idea that you can't win with a QB outside of his rookie deal. This is only a factual statement if your team uses 100% of the cap and no player on the roster is expendable. More times than not, an elite level QB is easily worth the extra 10-20 million in cap space that he will command. 

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25 minutes ago, jmat321 said:

The next CBA - they should really push to make players a franchise drafts exempt from the salary cap AFTER their rookie deal expires.  The purpose of the salary cap should be to prevent teams from buying championships.  You shouldn't be punished for drafting well.  

I see your point, but then it defeats the purpose of the salary cap and shows favoritism, in a league that already favors the quarterback. If you're a team that's able to draft well and you cant seem to find enough cap space to sign that 1 guy, then no worries. Remember, you're an organization who drafts well. There is no guy that valuable that you cant ultimately replace. It may not be of that high of talent, if he's like a once in a generation type of talent", however, if you've built a complete team, then you're in a position to compensate. 

Instead of exempting the cap, which would undermine the point of the cap, how about guaranteeing contracts? Alot of times guys may not sign with a team because of contract language, knowing that the deal could be 5 years 100 million, but only 40 million is guaranteed and only 35 million is "fully" guaranteed. The contract language in the league is utter bullcrap. The League needs to pay those guys. 

Guarantee the contracts. 

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15 minutes ago, nico002 said:

The biggest fallacy to me, is this idea that you can't win with a QB outside of his rookie deal. This is only a factual statement if your team uses 100% of the cap and no player on the roster is expendable. More times than not, an elite level QB is easily worth the extra 10-20 million in cap space that he will command. 

Well once Mahomes signs, that differential will be more like $30MM+ but I still agree with your point.  You just have to be above average at drafting so you have at least some over-performing talent on your team (i.e. good players on rookie deals).

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The Jets pay  or are about to pay players that do not help you win in this league or their skill set is easily replaced. 

We signed two injured ilbs to big contracts, they both got hurt and had little effect on the team.

We now want to make a huge commitment to our safety but the his effect on the team and any of his gaudy stats will plummet as soon as we get an actual pass rusher or two and he is asked to do what most SS in this league do.

We don;t draft positions of value and we miss on most of those picks anyways.

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I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment and points made in this thread and it was very well articulated.

I want to make a side point about the salary cap in general. I don't think it has really done anything to improve parity in the league. It was introduced in '94 and 6 years later the Patriots created the longest dynasty in the history of the league. Personally I thought it was more fun to watch teams be able to keep all the good guys they drafted and be rewarded with a nice 5-10 year run for doing so. It gave them more of an identity than just the face of the QB and coach.

 

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4 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Most need a thorough explanation. 

Nice job @Villain The Foe

Thanks Joe! 
When folks don't understand why we have the money to pay Jamal Adams, the only thing left to do is to explain it. 

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44 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment and points made in this thread and it was very well articulated.

I want to make a side point about the salary cap in general. I don't think it has really done anything to improve parity in the league. It was introduced in '94 and 6 years later the Patriots created the longest dynasty in the history of the league. Personally I thought it was more fun to watch teams be able to keep all the good guys they drafted and be rewarded with a nice 5-10 year run for doing so. It gave them more of an identity than just the face of the QB and coach.

 

I'd like to see a tweak to the Salary Cap rule that incentivizes teams to keep their own players.  Maybe when you re-sign one of your Draft picks  you only have to count 90% of his compensation against the Cap?  Do something that makes a $10M per year offer to your own player only count $9M against the Cap, whereas another team incurs the full $10M against their Salary Cap spend to sign him away.  This would let a team pay their own guy a little more to stay yet still feel less of the Cap pain.  It's essentially a reward for Drafting well.

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I don’t really care whether we have the money to sign Adams longterm or not.

If the price is right, I trade him.

And I don’t hate Jamal.

But myself and many others look at this team, see completely anemic talent along the OL, WR position, potentially RB, EDGE and CB.

And as good as Jamal Adams is, we’d rather accrue extra draft capital to address those areas, support our young franchise QB to the fullest extent possible and not devote $15-16 million a year to a very good player who happens to play possibly the least important position this side of fullback.

If I can get a 1st and 3rd from a team like Dallas, then so long Jamal.

Grabbing a potential #1 WR and a starting OL piece with those extra added picks would go a helluva lot further in reversing this teams fortunes than keeping Jamal Adams around. But that’s just me.

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46 minutes ago, nico002 said:

The biggest fallacy to me, is this idea that you can't win with a QB outside of his rookie deal. This is only a factual statement if your team uses 100% of the cap and no player on the roster is expendable. More times than not, an elite level QB is easily worth the extra 10-20 million in cap space that he will command. 

Where the issue is that ok/good QBs like Cousind are given monster deals. Not really an issue with paying truly elite guys 

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4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Thanks Joe! 
When folks don't understand why we have the money to pay Jamal Adams, the only thing left to do is to explain it. 

I could walk into a dealership and walk out with the keys to a Ferrari this afternoon.  That I can doesn't mean I should.

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I could walk into a dealership and walk out with the keys to a Ferrari this afternoon.  That I can doesn't mean I should.

You would rather visit 15 used car dealers and kick the tires on all junks instead of driving a reliable luxury car that takes you from point A to point B safely. 

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6 minutes ago, CTM said:

Where the issue is that ok/good QBs like Cousind are given monster deals. Not really an issue with paying truly elite guys 

Right.

KC will pay Mahomes $40MM and while it's a huge #, it won't be hard to swallow.

If DAL has to pay Dak anywhere near that amount, it will be like drinking battery acid because of the difference between the two.  Mahomes elevates a team.  Prescott merely goes along for the ride and plays to not screw things up.  One you can pay $40MM for.  The other, you should only pay $20MM for because you need to make that difference up with other players, and that's only if you can't find a better option.

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6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I could walk into a dealership and walk out with the keys to a Ferrari this afternoon.  That I can doesn't mean I should.

Facts. You have to properly assess. If you have Champagne taste, but beer money, then walking out with a Ferrari will only mean that you'll have it for 30 days until you cant make next month's payment. 

Just because you can do something doesnt mean that you should. However, that isnt the Jets situation. 

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2 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

You would rather visit 15 used car dealers and kick the tires on all junks instead of driving a reliable luxury car that takes you from point A to point B safely. 

In your analogy, which comically misses the point, Jamal Adams is a Hummer H2.

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

In your analogy, which comically misses the point, Jamal Adams is a Hummer H2.

Comically is your logic that we can't afford Jamal Adams or don't need players on our roster like him. 

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1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Facts. You have to properly assess. If you have Champagne taste, but beer money, then walking out with a Ferrari will only mean that you'll have it for 30 days until you cant make next month's payment

 Just because you can do something doesnt mean that you should. However, that isnt the Jets situation. 

But, what if  I can make the payments.  But, once I've done that, I can't say, get another quality car that has room for my children.  Upgrade my apartment.  Go on the vacations I want to go on.  It's a percentage of resources.  Jamal Adams' contribution to the Jets winning isn't worth the percentage of resources he will cost long term.  We have actually seen that 1st hand, as three years of Jamal Adams hasn't produced a winning season.  And, just because, today, we can technically afford to make a poor allocation of resources, doesn't mean we should.

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5 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Comically is your logic that we can't afford Jamal Adams or don't need players on our roster like him. 

5-11, 4-12, 7-9.

I'm pretty sure we can continue to lose without Jamal Adams.  That your understanding of what makes a football team good is players who's name you recognize, doesn't really change that.

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Put it this way; if my choice is paying Ju Ju Smith Shuster $17 million or pay that kind of $ to Jamal Adams, I'm paying Ju Ju, coming off an injury, and not looking back. One position contributes to winning football games way more than the other. And one of those slots can be replaced without much dropoff relatively reasonably, and one cannot. Not a knock on Adams, a statement of fact and allocation of your cap. 

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5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

5-11, 4-12, 7-9.

I'm pretty sure we can continue to lose without Jamal Adams.  That your understanding of what makes a football team good is players who's name you recognize, doesn't really change that.

it's a funny thing, but when you view contracts in terms of wins and losses, most guys are relatively easily replaceable, and we saw this on defense this year.  

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The 49ers pay their SS 6.5M per

The Packers pay their SS 9M per

The Titans pay their SS 6M per

The Chiefs pay their SS 4M per

The most expensive SS in the league is employed by the team picking 2nd overall, at 14M per.

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1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

it's a funny thing, but when you view contracts in terms of wins and losses, most guys are relatively easily replaceable, and we saw this on defense this year.  

Agreed.  So, lets not allocate significant resources to a SS, who, as demonstrated above, the final 4 teams spend an average of a little over 6M on.

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2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The 49ers pay their SS 6.5M per

The Packers pay their SS 9M per

The Titans pay their SS 6M per

The Chiefs pay their SS 4M per

The most expensive SS in the league is employed by the team picking 2nd overall, at 14M per.

how many times a year does a head coach think 'wow, that safety really beat us today'?

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19 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

But, what if  I can make the payments.  But, once I've done that, I can't say, get another quality car that has room for my children.  Upgrade my apartment.  Go on the vacations I want to go on.  It's a percentage of resources.  Jamal Adams' contribution to the Jets winning isn't worth the percentage of resources he will cost long term.  We have actually seen that 1st hand, as three years of Jamal Adams hasn't produced a winning season.  And, just because, today, we can technically afford to make a poor allocation of resources, doesn't mean we should.

Ah, the "we can't win it all with Jamal Adams and 52 scrubs" argument.  

Khalil Mack wasn't on a winning team this year.  Neither was Von Miller.  Or TJ Watt.  You could swap Adams for any one of those guys and we aren't a playoff team.  But you need a certain amount of those type of guys or you never will be.  Accumulate great players until you can't afford them all and then worry about who to let leave.  Right now we can afford all one of the great players we have on this team.  Or we can trade him for the unknown of a mid-1st round pick that could easily turn out to be....say a Garrett Bradbury, who is a very average-looking Center taken with the 20th pick last year.  If you could easily turn Jamal Adams into Quenton Nelson, than I'm all for it.  But there's a lot of ways that can just make the team substantially worse, and draft history (especially ours) says you can't ignore that possibility.

 

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1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

Agreed.  So, lets not allocate significant resources to a SS, who, as demonstrated above, the final 4 teams spend an average of a little over 6M on.

watching the playoffs, you realize that while there are different ways teams get to the playoffs, most have at least decent offensive lines, and quarterbacks aren't usually getting hammered every other play.  most of these teams have several competent wrs/tes and rbs who can take a screen pass and show some wiggle to get YAC.  the jets have none of this.  none.

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8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

5-11, 4-12, 7-9.

I'm pretty sure we can continue to lose without Jamal Adams.  That your understanding of what makes a football team good is players who's name you recognize, doesn't really change that.

By this logic we shouldn't pay a single player on the roster. 

Adams can get paid and we can still improve the o-line, skill positions, coaching staff, etc and become a good team. Paying Adams doesn't prevent us from drafting o-line. It doesn't prevent us from paying Darnold in the future if he is worth it. It doesn't prevent us from doing pretty much anything we need to do to improve the team.
 

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4 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

The 49ers pay their SS 6.5M per

The Packers pay their SS 9M per

The Titans pay their SS 6M per

The Chiefs pay their SS 4M per

The most expensive SS in the league is employed by the team picking 2nd overall, at 14M per.

The 49ers pay their top-3 WRs an average of about $3MM/year.  The highest paid WR in the league is on CLE.

KC pays their top-3 CBs and average of about $600k/year.  The highest paid CB in the league is on CHI.

Clearly we're onto a winning formula.  Or maybe not.

 

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