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The actual use-case of the NFL Salary Cap.


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33 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

well part of this is not playing gronk 2x.  and it's not all jamal defending TEs if he's blitzing a lot.

I was in full agreement with this but I had to check.  He only scored 1 TD that year against us.  I think that was the year Antonio Allen was Gronk's kryptonite (but only his apparently).

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2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Plenty of "hybrids" fine.  But, then perhaps we can look at this from the INT angle, if we want to see who's making a difference as a pass defender?

Meh, I've been down this path before about INT's and the value between making a stop on 3rd down vs. an INT.  Not all INT's carry the same weight and I dont see how this has anything to do with the topic ie: the best teams in the NFL pay big coin for safeties.  

But for sh*ts and giggles.  Jamal had more picks than 4 of those dudes; Amos, Jenkins, Joyner, Collins.  He had 1 less than Earl Thomas.  2 less than Harrison Smith.  The guys who stood out were, Byard, Mathieu and McCourty. 

Fun fact; None of the players on the list had as many TD's as Jamal.

So....again, you can pay for a safety and still be really good.  

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Let's say we have a tremendous draft like Seattle did when they built their SB team.  What happens when all those good players contracts expire at the same time?

Look at what the 49ers did with Garoppolo.   They front loaded his contract making him absurdly over paid when they had a ton of cap space.  They now have him tied up through 2022 at a reasonable starting QB salary.  They also can cut him with a reasonably low cap hit.  They are also going to have a lot of good players who will want to get paid at the same time.  

That's one approach with Adams.  The problem with that approach is exactly what happened with Revis.  If you front load a contract the player is in position to hold out on the back end when the value kicks in.  

Anderson is an entirely different matter.  He's a below average WR when rookie WR are having a huge impact on the league from day 1.   

It doesn't matter what the cap is or that you have to spend it.  At the end of the day you're buying production at a price and it has to be spread across the full roster.  

The Jets suck because we are paying the same amount as KC for less production.  It doesn't matter that it has to be spent.  

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20 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Paying the all-pro player we drafted to keep during his prime years does not and will not prevent the team from being built into a winning program. It won't prevent us from paying our QB if he becomes worth it. It won't prevent us from drafting offensive linemen or signing free agents. Essentially, there's nothing signing Adams long term prevents the team from doing. The cap goes up every year and the only major potential upcoming contract we need to worry about is Darnold.

Stop being scared of some salary cap boogie man that's going to bite us if we sign Adams long term.

If we get to a point where we have too many good players where it looks like they won't all fit under the cap, then we'd have to start to worry about things like this. But then - that would be a great problem to have.

This post needs to be pinned to the front page of JN.

well done, sir... well done.

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1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Let's say we have a tremendous draft like Seattle did when they built their SB team.  What happens when all those good players contracts expire at the same time?

Look at what the 49ers did with Garoppolo.   They front loaded his contract making him absurdly over paid when they had a ton of cap space.  They now have him tied up through 2022 at a reasonable starting QB salary.  They also can cut him with a reasonably low cap hit.  They are also going to have a lot of good players who will want to get paid at the same time.  

That's one approach with Adams.  The problem with that approach is exactly what happened with Revis.  If you front load a contract the player is in position to hold out on the back end when the value kicks in.  

Anderson is an entirely different matter.  He's a below average WR when rookie WR are having a huge impact on the league from day 1.   

It doesn't matter what the cap is or that you have to spend it.  At the end of the day you're buying production at a price and it has to be spread across the full roster.  

The Jets suck because we are paying the same amount as KC for less production.  It doesn't matter that it has to be spent.  

if you draft well over time you don't have to grossly overpay to keep certain guys.  the ravens didn't want to pay mosley mega money, they had cheaper alternatives.  when you draft guys like mauldin and coples you grossly overpay for certain positions.  

you can't pay all your good players, but if you draft well you can pay the most important ones and then replace the others with cheaper guys.  the jets will be overpaying OL b/c they haven't drafted or developed any in the past 5+ years.

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31 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-examining-the-nfls-best-safeties

1952604142_ScreenShot2020-01-23at11_44_30AM.png.2f26815963a26611d2a0e856f62d18d4.png

 

Whether someone plays Right Guard or Left Guard, whether a Cornerback like Sherman only works one side of the field or a guy like Revis follows WR1s everywhere, whether a guy plays FS or SS......I think what matters most is production and impact on the game.  Jamal Adams produces and impacts football games.  He's great against the run and great against the pass.  The people who seem to send him to Hawaii every year see that even if some Jets fans don't.

Please, don't  confuse them with facts

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Can’t make this up. Article just appeared on ESPN.com revisiting last year‘s best and worst off-season moves.

https://es.pn/36lV1zK

#1 was the Chiefs defensive rebuild.

05C44E5B-AC47-4227-AED8-39067ADA348E.thumb.jpeg.f8d24d825bbdf1ddfdd03c76e31de31f.jpeg

First paragraph starts:

I was skeptical of the move to hire Steve Spagnuolo as defensive coordinator. His track record has many more bad years than good ones. I grew even more skeptical as the Chiefs overhauled their defense on the fly and in ways Spagnuolo clearly had a hand in directing. But after a bit of a sluggish start, Spags & Co. proved me wrong. The Tyrann Mathieu signing was a difference-maker....

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3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

if you draft well over time you don't have to grossly overpay to keep certain guys.  the ravens didn't want to pay mosley mega money, they had cheaper alternatives.  when you draft guys like mauldin and coples you grossly overpay for certain positions.  

you can't pay all your good players, but if you draft well you can pay the most important ones and then replace the others with cheaper guys.  the jets will be overpaying OL b/c they haven't drafted or developed any in the past 5+ years.

Drafting is the key but at the end of the day you still have to figure out what your team should look like and allocate your cap to production that wins football games. 

Keeping our own FA's vs signing other FA's only matters if our FA's are actually part of a winning culture/team or will be part of it. 

We can afford to keep Adams and pay him.  We also can't ignore his value.  Anderson is an entirely different case.  We can afford to pay him only if we ignore his actual value. 

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A huge part in deciding who to pay, is you (the front office) has to really know that player.  Some players get paid, and immediately mail it in.   Some get paid, and continue to play hard, and create a winning culture.   With 15 million dollar salaries, you can't really afford to miss on those, because it costs you a player at some other position. 

If The front office truly thinks Adams will continue to play hard, and be a club house leader as well as on the field production, you pay him.  If you think he may turn into more of a Mo, Revis, or Tru, and just stop trying as hard after he gets paid, you let him go.

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Just now, Biggs said:

Let's say we have a tremendous draft like Seattle did when they built their SB team.  What happens when all those good players contracts expire at the same time?

That would be a great problem to have. Why? Because like the Seahawks, we probably one a SB before those contracts expired. However, the reality is that some of these guys you have to let walk. You have to then assess who's more valuable. That Seattle run was based on 2 years worth of drafting. They knew that some guys they had to keep but they knew that they couldnt sign everyone because eventually they was going to give Russell the Bank. 

A question that I would like to know is who were the players that they were paying while having all their core players rookie contracts. I know Matt Flynn had like a 3 year 25 million dollar deal, something like that, but I dont know who were the folks making the bulk of the money. I know Beast mode went then from the Bills, so he was probably getting a nice payday at the time as well. 

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Look at what the 49ers did with Garoppolo.   They front loaded his contract making him absurdly over paid when they had a ton of cap space.  They now have him tied up through 2022 at a reasonable starting QB salary.  They also can cut him with a reasonably low cap hit.  They are also going to have a lot of good players who will want to get paid at the same time.  

That's one approach with Adams.  The problem with that approach is exactly what happened with Revis.  If you front load a contract the player is in position to hold out on the back end when the value kicks in.  

That would be a good idea. Im always a fan of front loading contracts, specifically in situations like this. You pay these guys early, and once guys like Sam is ready for  his contract you're still able to keep these good guys on the team at affordable prices while having the money to pay your QB or your Edge player. If a guy holds out, then that's the nature of things. I think alot of those issues would simply go away once the league finally starts guaranteeing contracts. 

But who knows for sure. 

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Anderson is an entirely different matter.  He's a below average WR when rookie WR are having a huge impact on the league from day 1.   

It doesn't matter what the cap is or that you have to spend it.  At the end of the day you're buying production at a price and it has to be spread across the full roster.  

The Jets suck because we are paying the same amount as KC for less production.  It doesn't matter that it has to be spent.  

Robby Anderson is not a below average WR. He was a WR playing out of position the entire time he was here. Robby played our #1 WR over 4 years for an average of 1M. The amount of value that the Jets got out of Robby in that regard is highway robbery. Robby Anderson is a #2 WR in this league and is worth the 10-12M that those guys are getting paid. 

Would I be offended if the Jets found better value elsewhere? No. However, the narrative that Robby Anderson is a below average WR is based on folks expecting a 1M per year, undrafted Rookie Free Agent WR to go out and play like DeAndre Hopkins. 

Folks expectations are too high. 

The Jets spend 4 million dollars on Robby Anderson for him to be their #1 WR, and in return got 3,000 yards and 20TD's from a guy who isnt a #1 WR. 

That's return of value on that is phenomenal. Now imagine paying this man his worth at a #2 and the Jets going out and draftfing a #1 WR to put on the field, knowing that Robby basically went up against the best CB's in the league for his entire career and now he's going to go up against #2's. 

 

Robby Anderson is undervalued and in many ways under-appreciated. 

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9 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

Can’t make this up. Article just appeared on ESPN.com revisiting last year‘s best and worst off-season moves.

https://es.pn/36lV1zK

I didn't realize that the Vikings had brought in Kubiak.  Kubiak, his son, Stefanski and Dennison seems like a much better group than Bates, and Dennison with Bowles.  

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7 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

 

Robby Anderson is not a below average WR. He was a WR playing out of position the entire time he was here. Robby played our #1 WR over 4 years for an average of 1M. The amount of value that the Jets got out of Robby in that regard is highway robbery. Robby Anderson is a #2 WR in this league and is worth the 10-12M that those guys are getting paid. 

Would I be offended if the Jets found better value elsewhere? No. However, the narrative that Robby Anderson is a below average WR is based on folks expecting a 1M per year, undrafted Rookie Free Agent WR to go out and play like DeAndre Hopkins. 

Folks expectations are too high. 

The Jets spend 4 million dollars on Robby Anderson for him to be their #1 WR, and in return got 3,000 yards and 20TD's from a guy who isnt a #1 WR. 

That's return of value on that is phenomenal. Now imagine paying this man his worth at a #2 and the Jets going out and draftfing a #1 WR to put on the field, knowing that Robby basically went up against the best CB's in the league for his entire career and now he's going to go up against #2's. 

 

Robby Anderson is undervalued and in many ways under-appreciated. 

The fact that he was underpaid doesn't matter.  It's all sunk cost.  Take a look at John Browns contract for the Bills.  John Brown is better than Robbie at virtually everything a WR is asked to do.  Brown signed last year for 3 years 27 million with 11.7 guaranteed.  John Brown is a deep threat, great route runner and can play inside or outside.  

Robbie is over appreciated by Jets fans.  The staggering number of NFL WR who outproduced him this year is unbelievable.  I don't think most people realize how good the talent level at WR in the NFL is right now.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Drafting is the key but at the end of the day you still have to figure out what your team should look like and allocate your cap to production that wins football games. 

Keeping our own FA's vs signing other FA's only matters if our FA's are actually part of a winning culture/team or will be part of it. 

We can afford to keep Adams and pay him.  We also can't ignore his value.  Anderson is an entirely different case.  We can afford to pay him only if we ignore his actual value. 

i disagree on anderson's value.  he scores touchdowns.  he had 5 last year, in 5 different games, and the jets won all 5.  he's worth points.  darnold still underthrows him, or he'd have more touchdowns.  he's tall and fast and his hands are decent.  he gets open, he gets separation.  if darnold has better protection, anderson's stats should improve.  

anderson is worth points in too many games for the jets to discard him and hope to find 6'3" wrs with his speed and knack for long completions.  the problem with anderson is the same problem with darnold - most of the rest of the offense sucks.

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11 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

That would be a great problem to have. Why? Because like the Seahawks, we probably one a SB before those contracts expired. However, the reality is that some of these guys you have to let walk. You have to then assess who's more valuable. That Seattle run was based on 2 years worth of drafting. They knew that some guys they had to keep but they knew that they couldnt sign everyone because eventually they was going to give Russell the Bank. 

A question that I would like to know is who were the players that they were paying while having all their core players rookie contracts.

They had spent a lot of money on O Line, for Beast Mode to run behind, as well as their D Line.

When they had to start re signing their D, they lost a lot of O Lineman, and Wilson started having to run for his life. 

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5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i disagree on anderson's value.  he scores touchdowns.  he had 5 last year, in 5 different games, and the jets won all 5.  he's worth points.  darnold still underthrows him, or he'd have more touchdowns.  he's tall and fast and his hands are decent.  he gets open, he gets separation.  if darnold has better protection, anderson's stats should improve.  

anderson is worth points in too many games for the jets to discard him and hope to find 6'3" wrs with his speed and knack for long completions.  the problem with anderson is the same problem with darnold - most of the rest of the offense sucks.

 

This year in the NFL 43 WR had 6 or more TD's.  If you add in the WR's who had 5 or more the number goes to 65.  

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11 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The fact that he was underpaid doesn't matter.  It's all sunk cost.  Take a look at John Browns contract for the Bills.  John Brown is better than Robbie at virtually everything a WR is asked to do.  Brown signed last year for 3 years 27 million with 11.7 guaranteed.  John Brown is a deep threat, great route runner and can play inside or outside.  

Robbie is over appreciated by Jets fans.  The staggering number of NFL WR who outproduced him this year is unbelievable.  I don't think most people realize how good the talent level at WR in the NFL is right now.

 

 

No question Brown had a better year than Anderson.  But there's a lot to consider, not the least of which is the team around them, including the Luke Falk effect.  So I took the last 6 games to compare, when the Jets were really on a good run.  Here are the numbers:

Anderson: 27/43 (62.8%) for 420 yards and 3 TDs

Brown: 20/38 (52.6%) for 292 yards and 2 TDs

So over the last 6 weeks, Robby was the better WR (Brown did have 2 passing TDs which is always cool but we'll leave out of this analysis for the moment).  Does that mean much for 2020?  Not necessarily but it does muddy the argument over who you could expect to be better.  If you project Robby's last 6 games (which included the last BUF game where he was invisible) over a season, you get 72 catches for 1,120 yards, which is very, very respectable for a #2 WR.  I can't explain why Robby would get 5 targets one game and 10 the next, and it seemed to seesaw like that all season long.  But he had a nice run to end the year and I wouldn't hate it if we brought him back with a better complement across the field.  I'd also be fine if we moved on as long as we brought in a guy who could provide a similar production.  There are probably 30-40 guys in the league who fit that #2 type of role and maybe another 5 in the draft.  I just don't know if we will get one.  So maybe it's a 'better the devil you know' thing?

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36 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The fact that he was underpaid doesn't matter.  It's all sunk cost.  Take a look at John Browns contract for the Bills.  John Brown is better than Robbie at virtually everything a WR is asked to do.  Brown signed last year for 3 years 27 million with 11.7 guaranteed.  John Brown is a deep threat, great route runner and can play inside or outside.  

Robbie is over appreciated by Jets fans.  The staggering number of NFL WR who outproduced him this year is unbelievable.  I don't think most people realize how good the talent level at WR in the NFL is right now.

Is that so? Lets put that to the test, shall we? 

John Brown has played 87 games in the league and has recorded 4,300 yards and 28 TD's

Robby Anderson has played 62 games in the league and has recorded 3,060 yards and 20 TD's

 

John Brown averages 790 yards and 5 TD's per season

Robby Anderson averages 789 yards and 5 TD's per season. 

I think that it's safe to say that this 1 yard difference is truly not a game changer. Add in the fact that Robby is younger than Brown as well.

It seems like it's John Brown that is over appreciated by Jets fans, when Jets fans have that same exact production, literally, in Robby Anderson....yet they cant see it. They think a guy with the exact same production is better than Robby in virtually everything a WR is asked to do, yet production wise it says that Robby is the same quality WR and is being paid a fraction of the price. 

 

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5 minutes ago, nycdan said:

No question Brown had a better year than Anderson.  But there's a lot to consider, not the least of which is the team around them, including the Luke Falk effect.  So I took the last 6 games to compare, when the Jets were really on a good run.  Here are the numbers:

Anderson: 27/43 (62.8%) for 420 yards and 3 TDs

Brown: 20/38 (52.6%) for 292 yards and 2 TDs

So over the last 6 weeks, Robby was the better WR (Brown did have 2 passing TDs which is always cool but we'll leave out of this analysis for the moment).  Does that mean much for 2020?  Not necessarily but it does muddy the argument over who you could expect to be better.  If you project Robby's last 6 games (which included the last BUF game where he was invisible) over a season, you get 72 catches for 1,120 yards, which is very, very respectable for a #2 WR.  I can't explain why Robby would get 5 targets one game and 10 the next, and it seemed to seesaw like that all season long.  But he had a nice run to end the year and I wouldn't hate it if we brought him back with a better complement across the field.  I'd also be fine if we moved on as long as we brought in a guy who could provide a similar production.  There are probably 30-40 guys in the league who fit that #2 type of role and maybe another 5 in the draft.  I just don't know if we will get one.  So maybe it's a 'better the devil you know' thing?

last year was also tough to use anderson's full year #s b/c for 3 games they ceded on offense.  

also, darnold clearly underthrew anderson on numerous occasions, which could have resulted in more yds and tds.  not that allen didn't do this with brown, but still.

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10 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Is that so? Lets put that to the test, shall we? 

John Brown has played 87 games in the league and has recorded 4,300 yards and 28 TD's

Robby Anderson has played 62 games in the league and has recorded 3,060 yards and 20 TD's

 

On average John Brown averages 790 yards per year and 5 TD's per season

On average Robby Anderson averages 789 yards per game and 5 TD's per season. 

I think that it's safe to say that this 1 yard difference is truly not a game changer. Add in the fact that Robby is younger than Brown as well.

It seems like it's John Brown that is over appreciated by Jets fans, when Jets fans have that same exact production, literally, in Robby Anderson....yet they cant see it. They think a guy with the exact same production is better than Robby in virtually everything a WR is asked to do, yet production wise it says that Robby is the same quality WR and is being paid a fraction of the price. 

 

John Brown was diagnosed with sickle cell anemia in his third year in the league.  He couldn't run and was dumped out from AZ because he couldn't stay in a warm weather climate.   He was a dynamic rookie, followed it up with a 1000 yard season.  He's third and 4th year he was sick.  He was healthy when he came back to the Ravens and had his second 1000 yard season this year.  Watch him play, he actually runs routes.  

Robbie is looking for a deal that's miles more than Brown and Brown would start ahead of him on every team in the NFL. 

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3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I've been having quite the entertaining conversation with numerous posters who are concerned about how cap expenditures should be spent regarding Jets good/elite players. 

I think that it would be best to remind folks that money to a franchise is looked at and used much differently than us common folk who work for money and have to properly manage that money. How teams access money is much different, and the purpose for those funds are much different. Common folk typically spend money in order to pay bills and to maintain their lifestyle. Teams spend money in order to buy players rights in order to win. A team's cap space isnt based on their own personal revenue that they made for the season. The league has a collective bargaining agreement in place and the hard cap is based on numerous revenue streams such as contracts with television networks, tickets sales and merchandise for example. 

Pretty much every year the cap number goes up. In 2020 the Salary is about 200 million dollars per team. Now compare that to when this salary cap was introduced back in 1994 when the cap was first put in place at 35 million dollars per team. That's almost a 6X increase in cap over the past 26 years. My point here is this. The purpose of the salary cap isnt to "Nickel and Dime" your way into obscurity. The purpose is to spend the money to keep your current good players and to pay free agents. 

I constantly here this rhetoric of not paying our All-Pro safety his market value because he's a safety and that would be bad economics, or not paying market value for Robby Anderson (Free Robby, by the way) because of trumped up arrests of 2+ years ago that folks make out to be as if it was this past weekend...and it would be bad economics to invest in a WR that has been our best WR since he's been in the league, and we've only paid him about 4 million over the 4 years he's been in the league. 

 

My problem is this. I keep hearing about economics or wisely spending our cap, but our two best players have both been on rookie deals for years. We have a QB on a rookie deal. We dont have a LT on a huge deal, we dont have an Edge rusher on a huge deal and the CB we did give a large contract to we're about to terminate. And speaking of huge deals, the players with the highest contracts have all been guys from other teams that we signed via free agency. 

Mosley 17.5M (Ravens)

Bell 15M (Steelers)

T. Johnson 15M (Rams)

Crowder 10M (Redskins)

H. Anderson 8.3M (Colts)

 

Matter of fact, the highest salary we have on the books from an original drafted player is Sam Darnold at 8.2M! The highest salary that we have from an original Jet player that we resigned is Quincy Enunwa at 7.8M, and he's right behind Sam Darnold. You know who's behind Enunwa? Quinnen Williams, at 7.3 Million. 

Do you know why we always have so much cap space? Because we rarely hit on draft picks, and because of lack of talent, whatever money we do spend we have to overspend to get guys such as CJ Mosley, a 17.5M Price tag that Harbaugh looked at and said "Let him walk". Why did they say that? Because the Ravens were in a situation to where they had to be more prudent with their money given that they had to figure out who is more important for them to keep around (knowing that they'll need future space to keep Ronnie Stanley and Marhsall Yanda)  and what players would be more impactful additions (S Earl Thomas and CB Marcus Peters). They were able to do this now that they had Flacco off of the books and have a QB drafted 30-something overall on the 2nd year of his rookie deal. 

 

My point is this. The Jets are in no position to be weighing financial options or nickel and dime'ing the good players that they actually drafted. The REAL PURPOSE for the cap is to pay the good players that you originally drafted! Every position has it's market and within that market you have guys who will fit in a range. There would be no point of even having a salary cap if it couldnt meet the market value of players when that market value is based on the salary cap itself. 

Would Russel Wilson be averaging 35 million dollars a year if the Cap was the same cap that it was in 1994 when it was first introduced??? Of course not. It's one thing to manage your cap in order to make sure you're not just grossly overpaying players. It's another to make it seem like you cant pay all pro Safeties because of their market value when their Market value is based on the cap itself and the Jets are top 10 in salary cap space. It makes no sense whatsoever. 

Lastly, I've heard examples of how signing Revis and Sanchez were bad decisions. Indeed they were, but they weren't based on economics but incompetency. The year that we should have resigned Revis, we traded him. Then he bounced from Tampa Bay to New England...playing fantastic football during that time, and then 3 years later the Jets want to then give him a contract that they should have given him 3 years ago in his prime. That's not a bad signing because of numbers, that's a bad signing because of a bad front office. The Jets gave Sanchez an extension because his feelings were hurt that Tanny tried to get Peyton Manning from the Colts, and when he failed Sanchez got pissy and then they gave him an extension. Again, that wasn't bad numbers, but a bad front office decision, to extend a guy who you didn't even believe in to begin with. 

The most hilarious thing that I cant bring myself to understand. So many people have criticized paying Robby because prior production (Though he grossly outperformed his contract) along with past history with the law...while at the same time folk will criticize paying Jamal Adams because he's a Safety (who also grossly outperformed his contract) and because he's too confident in himself and comes off as a "fake" team guy....yet he has never had any issue with law enforcement nor has ever been considered a "locker room cancer". 

 

The Salary Cap is meant to be spent. This is why they have a rule that it's a requirement to spend a high percentage of that cap every few years, in order to make sure that teams aren't just sitting on the funds and not trying to pay players who either deserve it that they drafted, or guys in free agency. The rule helps facilitate market prices for the players. 

There is literally no excuse in terms of "Not being able to afford a Safety" given it's position when we're not spending money anywhere else, especially at premium positions. If anything, this would be the perfect time to pay guys at these position while getting guys at the premium positions at rookie contract prices. This is how you win in the league, by spending the money wisely. This is the perfect opportunity to keep Adams while knowing that you can draft an LT/RT, and maybe still be able to get an edge in free agency given the amount of money we have available. Teams should be wishing that they can be in a position to pay a Strong Safety market prices, that means that they can work on getting their premium position together and pay them rookie prices. 

When it's time to pay your rookie QB 25-35 million a year and your edge rusher 20 million, that's when you start worrying about paying All-Pro Strong Safeties. 

 

You dont let all pro players walk when you have no talent, a bunch of rookie contracts on the books and a ton of money. Let's be real here and understand the purpose of the Salary Cap. 

Villain this is a really good post, well thought out and makes total sense.

The only thing I disagree with is signing Robbie Anderson. Certainly he's not the elite guy to sign like you stated about other players that should be kept using Jamal as an example. I think Jamal should be re-signed because he is an impact player and a team devoid of talent should be looking to retain it rather than ship it off and make the team worse because of it. However, when It comes to Robbie he does not even sniff the elite status your model explains and there are better WR's out there that could help this team rather than a one trick Pony. Is he the best Receiver on the team ? I don't think so, since our Slot guy Crowder played much better, sure they are different positions but over all Crowder is a better Receiver who is willing to make the tough catches over the middle and get first downs and if he's making 10 Mil per why should Robbie be making 12 ? Also if we let Robbie walk their are better WR's out there we can sign that would be at or close to that elite level like Amari Cooper (just as 1 example) . There might also be trade possibilities. There is also the fact this is a deep WR draft 

Plenty of teams have guys with stats yet they still lose and they still let those players go there is something about evaluating the Whole player and what he contributes to the team and only the team can evaluate a player based on the plays called and how he responds to said calls. Robbie is a pussy in every sense of the word and he has demonstrated a fear of going over the middle his entire career and its obvious. I'm not sure he's such a bad route runner as much as he has a fear of running certain routes. Too many times this year I saw him cut routes short or short armed passes and that is infuriating when you see a guy looking to get paid. This year he finally started making some nice contested catches that certainly did not exist his first years in the league but he still gets blown up on screens and he still can't contribute on sweeps or anything related to the running game. If you watch teams like the Ravens the Niners the Chiefs all those receivers will pop you in the mouth to support the running game and the screen game and Robbie offers none of this and while some say or argue blocking for a WR is not really relevant then I say they don't understand the game of football and what it takes to win in the NFL. Someone put up a list of about 20 WR's the other day and I would argue every one of those guys are better than Robbie Anderson as complete WR's the lowest paid one is making 10 mil per. So since Robbie does not put up numbers nor is he a good route runner nor is he anything good other than a burner the absolute most I would offer him is about 8 mil per with a decent guarantee. If someone wants to be stupid and offer him 12 + per then its bye bye Robbie.

Also @bla bla bla  made a good point about transitioning him and then you will certainly get a good idea what the NFL thinks of Robbie Anderson so if someone wants to go after him we get a 3rd in return I would make that trade every day of the week. Worst case senario is you pay the guy top money for one year and he gets to see what hes really worth on the market.

When it comes to his behavior the guy has Improved but the incidents still exist and I would be willing to bet the only reason Robbie is staying on the straight and narrow is because if he does one more thing he's gonna get 10 games and destroy any chance of a pay day so hes not a complete Idiot like some others we've seen. So I ask what happen's when Robbie gets his 20 mil paycheck ? Does he still play the model citizen or does he still threaten to nut in cops wives faces ? Sorry but when you say sh*t like that to a cop something is not right so there IS reason for some concern and you can't just write it off like you are willing to do since that type of behavior plays a part in this process for every single player in the league.

We need receivers and we need good ones so make a run at Cooper and draft a couple of guys Darnold can grow with. 

Also when it comes to "grossly out performing a contract" Like you stated, every single player that plays well in the NFL is usually out performing their rookie contract so this is not something special or exclusive to Robbie. I know you know that so I'm not sure why you made that particular argument . No one gets paid based on what they did they usually get paid on what teams think they will do in the future that's why some players just don't get paid and walk. I mean you have to wonder why the Titans guys like Haynesworth walk so many other examples I can use but just to make the point teams know their players and they base their decisions on what they think future production will look like. 

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30 minutes ago, Biggs said:

John Brown was diagnosed with sickle cell anemia in his third year in the league.  He couldn't run and was dumped out from AZ because he couldn't stay in a warm weather climate.   He was a dynamic rookie, followed it up with a 1000 yard season.  He's third and 4th year he was sick.  He was healthy when he came back to the Ravens and had his second 1000 yard season this year.  Watch him play, he actually runs routes.  

Robbie is looking for a deal that's miles more than Brown and Brown would start ahead of him on every team in the NFL. 

Take this into consideration. 

 

John Brown starts his career out playing with Carson Palmer, Larry Fitzgerald and David Johnson (before his injury) in an offensive scheme ran by one of the best coaches of this last decade, Bruce Arians...a 2-time NFL Head Coach of the year. 

 

He then goes to the Ravens in 2018 and plays with Joe Flacco (before Flacco took a nosedive) and one of the best coaches of the last decade in John Harbaugh. Before that injury to Flacco heading into week 10, Flacco was on pace to throw about 4,400 yards that year. 

Then he goes to the Bills, and has a solid season running under passes for Josh Allen, an inconsistent but strong armed QB, playing for the 2nd best coach in the AFC east along with a top 3 defense in all of football to help control the ball. 

 

Question. What was the surrounding personnel that Robby had to work with during the stats he's produce? I'll tell you.

And please, I ask again to please this into consideration. 

Ryan Fitzpatrick. The 2016 version Ryan Fitzpatrick that in 14 games before being benched threw for just 2,700 yards, 12TD's and 17 INT's

Also:

Geno Smith

Bryce Petty 

Christian Hackenberg 

Josh McCown

Sam Darnold 

 

Must I even go there with what happened in 2019 with Robby having to play with Luke Falk and Trevor Siemian for a portion of the season. All this, while playing out of position.

 

My point, I think Robby Anderson would done just as well statistically, or even better had he been playing with the talent and coaching staff that John Brown has played with. 

John Brown was diagnosed with Sickle Cell, Robby Anderson had to share the same field with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg and Geno Smith in a 2 year span. 

I think most folks would settle for the Sickle Cell! ?J/k

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Is that so? Lets put that to the test, shall we? 

John Brown has played 87 games in the league and has recorded 4,300 yards and 28 TD's

Robby Anderson has played 62 games in the league and has recorded 3,060 yards and 20 TD's

 

John Brown averages 790 yards and 5 TD's per season

Robby Anderson averages 789 yards and 5 TD's per season. 

I think that it's safe to say that this 1 yard difference is truly not a game changer. Add in the fact that Robby is younger than Brown as well.

It seems like it's John Brown that is over appreciated by Jets fans, when Jets fans have that same exact production, literally, in Robby Anderson....yet they cant see it. They think a guy with the exact same production is better than Robby in virtually everything a WR is asked to do, yet production wise it says that Robby is the same quality WR and is being paid a fraction of the price. 

 

Why do you want to pay him 25% more per?  I do think Brown is much better.  You think Robbie is better.  Good were probably both wrong.  Why do you want to pay him 25% more?

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13 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Villain this is a really good post, well thought out and makes total sense.

The only thing I disagree with is signing Robbie Anderson. Certainly he's not the elite guy to sign like you stated about other players that should be kept using Jamal as an example. I think Jamal should be re-signed because he is an impact player and a team devoid of talent should be looking to retain it rather than ship it off and make the team worse because of it. However, when It comes to Robbie he does not even sniff the elite status your model explains and there are better WR's out there that could help this team rather than a one trick Pony. Is he the best Receiver on the team ? I don't think so, since our Slot guy Crowder played much better, sure they are different positions but over all Crowder is a better Receiver who is willing to make the tough catches over the middle and get first downs and if he's making 10 Mil per why should Robbie be making 12 ? Also if we let Robbie walk their are better WR's out there we can sign that would be at or close to that elite level like Amari Cooper (just as 1 example) . There might also be trade possibilities. There is also the fact this is a deep WR draft 

Plenty of teams have guys with stats yet they still lose and they still let those players go there is something about evaluating the Whole player and what he contributes to the team and only the team can evaluate a player based on the plays called and how he responds to said calls. Robbie is a pussy in every sense of the word and he has demonstrated a fear of going over the middle his entire career and its obvious. I'm not sure he's such a bad route runner as much as he has a fear of running certain routes. Too many times this year I saw him cut routes short or short armed passes and that is infuriating when you see a guy looking to get paid. This year he finally started making some nice contested catches that certainly did not exist his first years in the league but he still gets blown up on screens and he still can't contribute on sweeps or anything related to the running game. If you watch teams like the Ravens the Niners the Chiefs all those receivers will pop you in the mouth to support the running game and the screen game and Robbie offers none of this and while some say or argue blocking for a WR is not really relevant then I say they don't understand the game of football and what it takes to win in the NFL. Someone put up a list of about 20 WR's the other day and I would argue every one of those guys are better than Robbie Anderson as complete WR's the lowest paid one is making 10 mil per. So since Robbie does not put up numbers nor is he a good route runner nor is he anything good other than a burner the absolute most I would offer him is about 8 mil per with a decent guarantee. If someone wants to be stupid and offer him 12 + per then its bye bye Robbie.

Also @bla bla bla  made a good point about transitioning him and then you will certainly get a good idea what the NFL thinks of Robbie Anderson so if someone wants to go after him we get a 3rd in return I would make that trade every day of the week. Worst case senario is you pay the guy top money for one year and he gets to see what hes really worth on the market.

When it comes to his behavior the guy has Improved but the incidents still exist and I would be willing to bet the only reason Robbie is staying on the straight and narrow is because if he does one more thing he's gonna get 10 games and destroy any chance of a pay day so hes not a complete Idiot like some others we've seen. So I ask what happen's when Robbie gets his 20 mil paycheck ? Does he still play the model citizen or does he still threaten to nut in cops wives faces ? Sorry but when you say sh*t like that to a cop something is not right so there IS reason for some concern and you can't just write it off like you are willing to do since that type of behavior plays a part in this process for every single player in the league.

We need receivers and we need good ones so make a run at Cooper and draft a couple of guys Darnold can grow with. 

Also when it comes to "grossly out performing a contract" Like you stated, every single player that plays well in the NFL is usually out performing their rookie contract so this is not something special or exclusive to Robbie. I know you know that so I'm not sure why you made that particular argument . No one gets paid based on what they did they usually get paid on what teams think they will do in the future that's why some players just don't get paid and walk. I mean you have to wonder why the Titans guys like Haynesworth walk so many other examples I can use but just to make the point teams know their players and they base their decisions on what they think future production will look like. 

Thanks for the words bro.

I agree that Robby Anderson isnt an elite player, but Im not suggestting that we pay him elite money. 

I think folks are forgetting that part. We need a #2 WR. Robby is a #2 WR. Pay him #2 WR money. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Take this into consideration. 

 

John Brown starts his career out playing with Carson Palmer, Larry Fitzgerald and David Johnson (before his injury) in an offensive scheme ran by one of the best coaches of this last decade, Bruce Arians...a 2-time NFL Head Coach of the year. 

 

He then goes to the Ravens in 2018 and plays with Joe Flacco (before Flacco took a nosedive) and one of the best coaches of the last decade in John Harbaugh. Before that injury to Flacco heading into week 10, Flacco was on pace to throw about 4,400 yards that year. 

Then he goes to the Bills, and has a solid season running under passes for Josh Allen, an inconsistent but strong armed QB, playing for the 2nd best coach in the AFC east along with a top 3 defense in all of football to help control the ball. 

 

Question. What was the surrounding personnel that Robby had to work with during the stats he's produce? I'll tell you.

And please, I ask again to please this into consideration. 

Ryan Fitzpatrick. The 2016 version Ryan Fitzpatrick that in 14 games before being benched threw for just 2,700 yards, 12TD's and 17 INT's

Also:

Geno Smith

Bryce Petty 

Christian Hackenberg 

Josh McCown

Sam Darnold 

 

Must I even go there with what happened in 2019 with Robby having to play with Luke Falk and Trevor Siemian for a portion of the season. All this, while playing out of position.

 

My point, I think Robby Anderson would done just as well statistically, or even better had he been playing with the talent and coaching staff that John Brown has played with. 

John Brown was diagnosed with Sickle Cell, Robby Anderson had to share the same field with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg and Geno Smith in a 2 year span. 

I think most folks would settle for the Sickle Cell! ?J/k

 

 

Question, why did Bruce Arians draft him from a small school in the 3rd round and Robbie went undrafted.  

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10 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Why do you want to pay him 25% more per?  I do think Brown is much better.  You think Robbie is better.  Good were probably both wrong.  Why do you want to pay him 25% more?

Because John Brown didnt set the market for 2020 nor did he get signed this year. Furthermore, the Jets signed Jamison Crowder to more money, and he's not even a #1 or #2 WR, but a slot. 

If the market for a #2 like Robby Anderson is 10-12M per season, then that's what it is. If Robby thinks he's more than that and the Jets think that he's a bit too rich, then let him test FA. 

The money isnt the problem, since these teams are guaranteed money every year, which is the point of my thread. The problem would be not signing him and now having a hole at both 1 and 2 receiver positions. 

Robby Anderson isnt a revolutionary WR, but he's good enough to suggest that walking away from this guy is considered creating a hole in a team already full of holes. 

 

Again, the money isnt the problem. Salaries go up every single season for players playing the same position. Why is that a "thing" when it's time for Robby to get paid? It's not like the Jets didnt have the opportunity to sign Robby earlier. They did, and they decided to wait. We all know that the prices go up when you do that. 

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8 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Question, why did Bruce Arians draft him from a small school in the 3rd round and Robbie went undrafted.  

I have no idea. However, what I do know is that if you lay out their careers, they're exactly the same. EXACTLY the same. 

So what's your point...that John Brown can get paid but Robby cant? 

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1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Thanks for the words bro.

I agree that Robby Anderson isnt an elite player, but Im not suggestting that we pay him elite money. 

I think folks are forgetting that part. We need a #2 WR. Robby is a #2 WR. Pay him #2 WR money. 

 

Hey man I know you didn't refer to him as elite and I didnt mean to suggest you did ... My question has numerous parts concerning Robbie.

The way I envision offenses in the NFL they should be filled with guys that will smack defenses in the mouth. Run the ball down their throat, Keep the ball out of the other team's hands, and Big Possession type WR's that can contribute by moving the chains and break tackles and give the QB a big target when he has to throw the ball in your vicinity and rely on you to out muscle CB's to make plays . Keep in mind when you play really good elite defenses at times your receivers (no matter how good they are ) will have to fight for the ball in tight coverage. You go into the playoffs and this compounds to almost every game you play. You have to ask in a big playoff game do you trust Robbie to go up and make a huge contested catch to convert that big 4th and 5 to keep an important drive alive ? If you can say yes to that question or if you have seen Robbie do such a thing. The Job of a number 2 WR is to step up and make that play when your number 1 guy may be double covered or if the defense is pressuring your QB to run in the direction of that number 2 guy. I simply do not trust Robbie ot make that play and at times that's miss and go home.

In the case of Number 2 Money what actually is that ? if number ones are ranging down from 19 mil to 12 mil where does Robbie fall as a number 2 who is an incomplete player?

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

 John Brown is better than Robbie at virtually everything a WR is asked to do.  Brown signed last year for 3 years 27 million with 11.7 guaranteed.  John Brown is a deep threat, great route runner and can play inside or outside.  

exceptr actually look at the numbers in the last 4 years and you see JB out produced Robby ONCE.

Valuation of Robby...   Robby supporters like Robby,  Like me, they see he is a solid contribuor and just want people to see him for what he is, not in the light of the fact that the other WRs on the team are demonstrably worse therefore encouraging the compares to #1 WRs.

John Brown is a similar player. 

Where do we go for route runner evals...   this is commonlhy tossed about here...   who ACTUALLY says this who has any business saying it...

cos i know that all people here are just parroting...     for me, if Hines Ward says it, cool. Otherwise...???   So where are teh route running metrics?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I've been having quite the entertaining conversation with numerous posters who are concerned about how cap expenditures should be spent regarding Jets good/elite players. 

I think that it would be best to remind folks that money to a franchise is looked at and used much differently than us common folk who work for money and have to properly manage that money. How teams access money is much different, and the purpose for those funds are much different. Common folk typically spend money in order to pay bills and to maintain their lifestyle. Teams spend money in order to buy players rights in order to win. A team's cap space isnt based on their own personal revenue that they made for the season. The league has a collective bargaining agreement in place and the hard cap is based on numerous revenue streams such as contracts with television networks, tickets sales and merchandise for example. 

Pretty much every year the cap number goes up. In 2020 the Salary is about 200 million dollars per team. Now compare that to when this salary cap was introduced back in 1994 when the cap was first put in place at 35 million dollars per team. That's almost a 6X increase in cap over the past 26 years. My point here is this. The purpose of the salary cap isnt to "Nickel and Dime" your way into obscurity. The purpose is to spend the money to keep your current good players and to pay free agents. 

I constantly here this rhetoric of not paying our All-Pro safety his market value because he's a safety and that would be bad economics, or not paying market value for Robby Anderson (Free Robby, by the way) because of trumped up arrests of 2+ years ago that folks make out to be as if it was this past weekend...and it would be bad economics to invest in a WR that has been our best WR since he's been in the league, and we've only paid him about 4 million over the 4 years he's been in the league. 

 

My problem is this. I keep hearing about economics or wisely spending our cap, but our two best players have both been on rookie deals for years. We have a QB on a rookie deal. We dont have a LT on a huge deal, we dont have an Edge rusher on a huge deal and the CB we did give a large contract to we're about to terminate. And speaking of huge deals, the players with the highest contracts have all been guys from other teams that we signed via free agency. 

Mosley 17.5M (Ravens)

Bell 15M (Steelers)

T. Johnson 15M (Rams)

Crowder 10M (Redskins)

H. Anderson 8.3M (Colts)

 

Matter of fact, the highest salary we have on the books from an original drafted player is Sam Darnold at 8.2M! The highest salary that we have from an original Jet player that we resigned is Quincy Enunwa at 7.8M, and he's right behind Sam Darnold. You know who's behind Enunwa? Quinnen Williams, at 7.3 Million. 

Do you know why we always have so much cap space? It's because we rarely hit on draft picks. And because of the lack of overall talent due to rarely hitting on draft picks, whatever money we do decide to spend we have to then overspend to get guys such as CJ Mosley, a 17.5M Price tag that Harbaugh looked at and said "Let him walk". Why did they say that? Because the Ravens were in a situation to where they had to be more prudent with their money given that they had to figure out who is more important for them to keep around (knowing that they'll need future space to keep Ronnie Stanley and Marhsall Yanda)  and what players would be more impactful additions (S Earl Thomas and CB Marcus Peters). They were able to do this now that they had Flacco off of the books and have a QB drafted 30-something overall on the 2nd year of his rookie deal. 

 

My point is this. The Jets are in no position to be weighing financial options or nickel and dime'ing the good players that they actually drafted. The REAL PURPOSE for the cap is to pay the good players that you originally drafted! Every position has it's market and within that market you have guys who will fit in a range. There would be no point of even having a salary cap if it couldnt meet the market value of players when that market value is based on the salary cap itself. 

Would Russel Wilson be averaging 35 million dollars a year if the Cap was the same cap that it was in 1994 when it was first introduced??? Of course not. It's one thing to manage your cap in order to make sure you're not just grossly overpaying players. It's another to make it seem like you cant pay all pro Safeties because of their market value when their Market value is based on the cap itself and the Jets are top 10 in salary cap space. It makes no sense whatsoever. 

Lastly, I've heard examples of how signing Revis and Sanchez were bad decisions. Indeed they were, but they weren't based on economics but incompetency. The year that we should have resigned Revis, we traded him. Then he bounced from Tampa Bay to New England...playing fantastic football during that time, and then 3 years later the Jets want to then give him a contract that they should have given him 3 years ago in his prime. That's not a bad signing because of numbers, that's a bad signing because of a bad front office. The Jets gave Sanchez an extension because his feelings were hurt that Tanny tried to get Peyton Manning from the Colts, and when he failed Sanchez got pissy and then they gave him an extension. Again, that wasn't bad numbers, but a bad front office decision, to extend a guy who you didn't even believe in to begin with. 

The most hilarious thing that I cant bring myself to understand. So many people have criticized paying Robby because prior production (Though he grossly outperformed his contract) along with past history with the law...while at the same time folk will criticize paying Jamal Adams because he's a Safety (who also grossly outperformed his contract) and because he's too confident in himself and comes off as a "fake" team guy....yet he has never had any issue with law enforcement nor has ever been considered a "locker room cancer". 

 

The Salary Cap is meant to be spent. This is why they have a rule that it's a requirement to spend a high percentage of that cap every few years, in order to make sure that teams aren't just sitting on the funds and not trying to pay players who either deserve it that they drafted, or guys in free agency. The rule helps facilitate market prices for the players. 

There is literally no excuse in terms of "Not being able to afford a Safety" given it's position when we're not spending money anywhere else, especially at premium positions. If anything, this would be the perfect time to pay guys at these position while getting guys at the premium positions at rookie contract prices. This is how you win in the league, by spending the money wisely. This is the perfect opportunity to keep Adams while knowing that you can draft an LT/RT, and maybe still be able to get an edge in free agency given the amount of money we have available. Teams should be wishing that they can be in a position to pay a Strong Safety market prices, that means that they can work on getting their premium position together and pay them rookie prices. 

When it's time to pay your rookie QB 25-35 million a year and your edge rusher 20 million, that's when you start worrying about paying All-Pro Strong Safeties. 

 

You dont let all pro players walk when you have no talent, a bunch of rookie contracts on the books and a ton of money. Let's be real here and understand the purpose of the Salary Cap. 

Good post, we need to create an environment where being a career jet is actually something....where players believe in the concept of being part of this, not just for a contract cycle but for an entire career. Building that with the handful of good players we have drafted would be a start.... the whole ‘he’s a safety so not an important position’ is laughable!
Like, let’s try puttting the Damien Robinson’s, Eric Smith’s or Brodney Pool’s of the world back there again and see how quickly the same peeps  are screaming about how rubbish our safeties are

it’a only a few years ago the usual refrain around here was that you can find good OG’s and OL in the mid-rounds of the draft....now we are losing our collective bowels because we can’t draft an entire OL in the first round

fans are dumb, generally speaking we need to draft good players, regardless of position, and keep as many of them as we possibly can, eventually if we get really good at it we’ll have to let some go because we just can’t keep everybody, but that’ll be a nice problem to have 

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2 hours ago, TeddEY said:

5-11, 4-12, 7-9.

I'm pretty sure we can continue to lose without Jamal Adams.  That your understanding of what makes a football team good is players who's name you recognize, doesn't really change that.

He contributes to the few wins we do have not like the bust draft picks most not even in the NFL or on the team anymore. 

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The purpose of the salary cap is not so a high market team like the Jets can retain its own players. The purpose - beyond obviously capping what a team has to spend - is to promote parity among the teams, so big market / high value teams can't simply doubly (or triply or quadruply) outspending lower market teams like MLB.

The issue with keeping and extending Adams - to those furthering the idea of moving him - isn't purely money, as weaker arguments like this suggest. Unfortunately, by reducing it to nothing but a money discussion, in straw man fashion it misses the boat on a major part of the argument - if not the major part of the argument - in moving him. For the sake of argument, use the 1st and a 3rd compensation that gets discussed here a lot (whether it's realistic or not, some incredibly think it's still not enough), and presume an Adams extension is in the $15MM/year range.

Just to show it isn't purely about dollars at the safety position that will lead to improving the team, say the Jets trade Adams and then immediately sign Anthony Harris in free agency at the same $15MM/year. This would be a net increase in SS spending since Adams is still entering year 4 of his rookie deal, and is still immensely smarter than extending Adams.

  1. They're making at worst a lateral move at safety (some would say it's an upgrade, some wouldn't, but it's subjective).
  2. But here's the thing: they also get a free $3MM/year 1st round pick plus a free $1MM/year 3rd round pick. Maybe neither pans out as expected, but maybe one or both turn into above average starters we couldn't even get in free agency, and even if we could the replacement add-on cost would be another $20-30MM/year depending on the positions they play and how good they are. If they both do pan out - if Douglas is as good as some say - then in this example Adams' extension cost is effectively about $35-40MM/year not $15MM/year. 
  3. Whatever those prospects end up being, without even downgrading the SS position, you're talking about 2 free shots at 2 more starters on day 1 and day 2 respectively; both locked up for the next 4-5 years at rounding-error dollars. Maybe they'd even trade the 3rd rounder to move up from #11 to #8 to guarantee a LT or WR1; or up from round 3 to round 2; maybe they'd stay pat and now, again without even downgrading the SS position, we'd have 6 picks in the first 2 days of the draft, including 2 in round 1. 

Put more simply (which isn't my thing), those advocating trading Adams are advocating just that: trading him, not cutting him FFS. It's all the difference in the world.

And if we somehow get an offer of a 1st and a 3rd (never mind more), and turn it down, then Douglas is dumb AF just like his predecessor. 

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