The actual use-case of the NFL Salary Cap.

[Losmeister]

40 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

we need to draft good players, regardless of position, and keep as many of them as we possibly can, eventually if we get really good at it we’ll have to let some go

well put.

problem is until we can get a QB whose AVERAGE play is ABOVE AVERAGE and cretaes situations where we WIN...   aintg gonna happen.

so far the drafting of Sam has given us 2 years of poor QB play. (~44 QBR)  That needs to be in the 60 range yearly or we're ****ed.

[BornJetsFan1983]

46 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

well put.

problem is until we can get a QB whose AVERAGE play is ABOVE AVERAGE and cretaes situations where we WIN...   aintg gonna happen.

so far the drafting of Sam has given us 2 years of poor QB play. (~44 QBR)  That needs to be in the 60 range yearly or we're ****ed.

that in incorrect.

 

He has given us 2 years both aboce ave. Results not very good in Wins or losses but its not like its sanchez our there. We are losing games for coaching not QB talent.

[Biggs]

3 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

I have no idea. However, what I do know is that if you lay out their careers, they're exactly the same. EXACTLY the same. 

So what's your point...that John Brown can get paid but Robby cant? 

My point is you have a contract metric to follow.  Why would you pay Robbie more than Brown?

[GREENBEAN]

?





Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jetsfan80]

By this logic we shouldn't pay a single player on the roster. 
Adams can get paid and we can still improve the o-line, skill positions, coaching staff, etc and become a good team. Paying Adams doesn't prevent us from drafting o-line. It doesn't prevent us from paying Darnold in the future if he is worth it. It doesn't prevent us from doing pretty much anything we need to do to improve the team.
 

That’s a lot of stuff we need to go right.

CAN we build the other spots while paying Jamal. Maybe. But you can also drive a car with your knees. Doesn’t mean it’s recommended.

What we CAN do with the picks we get for Jamal AND the cap space saved is a lot more than what we can do WITH Jamal, who hasn’t moved the needle over 3 years. We sucked before Jamal and sucked with Jamal.

[Jetsfan80]

The Redskins had over $20 million in cap space left over in 2019. The money they spent on SS didn't prevent them from spending elsewhere.

Definitely the organization we should be emulating.

[Jetsfan80]

would love to hear the debates with douglas, gase and chris about this.

 

I don’t, because I can guarantee I’d want to punch Chris Johnson repeatedly in the face.

 

If we end up paying Jamal, roughly 99 % of the reason would be CJ meddling.

 

[Jetsfan80]

Paying the all-pro player we drafted to keep during his prime years does not and will not prevent the team from being built into a winning program. It won't prevent us from paying our QB if he becomes worth it. It won't prevent us from drafting offensive linemen or signing free agents. Essentially, there's nothing signing Adams long term prevents the team from doing. The cap goes up every year and the only major potential upcoming contract we need to worry about is Darnold.
Stop being scared of some salary cap boogie man that's going to bite us if we sign Adams long term.
If we get to a point where we have too many good players where it looks like they won't all fit under the cap, then we'd have to start to worry about things like this. But then - that would be a great problem to have.

Paying Jamal would mean our owner is still meddling and/or our shiny new GM doesn’t understand positional importance and market inefficiency.

Neither of these would be good signs for the future of the franchise.

[Jetsfan80]

So here's a fun factoid to add to this debate.  It's merely anecdotal but if you, like me, remember years of watching TEs absolutely shred our defense as if they were stealth fighters, here you go.
5 years ago (2014) TEs racked up 810 yards and 14 TDs against our defense.  Those 14 TDs were the worst in the league and the yards were 15th.
This season (2019) those numbers were 702 yards and 3 TDs.  The yards were 25th in the league and TDs were tied for 2nd best.
That's what good Safeties do for you.  I'd like to NOT go back to watching TEs convert on 3rd down every single series., 

Marcus Maye can cover the TEs just fine.

[Villain The Foe]

11 hours ago, Biggs said:

My point is you have a contract metric to follow.  Why would you pay Robbie more than Brown?

Easy, because the salary cap went up, whichnis the real contract metric, which means that there's more money flowing to players now than it was when Brown signed his contract. 

 

 

[rangerous]

imo some good points with the analysis but it doesn't seem like there's been much of an attempt to evaluate the resources they should be spending on each position.  pay adams?  i say yes because he's one of those guys who does make timely big plays and does affect the game's outcome.  i get the point about the all of the adams teams being sub 500 but still.  obviously if a team comes along with a trade deal the jets would be foolish not to listen.  going forward, what home grown jet player besides darnold should demand a high cap hit when they come to the end of their rookie deal?  qwill?  maye?  robbie? austin? cashman?  you can't pay them all and there will always be younger players that will be pushing them out.

i'm glad i'm not in douglas' shoes right now.

[Barry McCockinner]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

That’s a lot of stuff we need to go right.

CAN we build the other spots while paying Jamal. Maybe. But you can also drive a car with your knees. Doesn’t mean it’s recommended.

What we CAN do with the picks we get for Jamal AND the cap space saved is a lot more than what we can do WITH Jamal, who hasn’t moved the needle over 3 years. We sucked before Jamal and sucked with Jamal.

 

There is merit to trading him for picks but that is outside of a pure salary cap discussion. We disagree on his trade value but again a different albeit related discussion.

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Definitely the organization we should be emulating.

 

Not the point at all. Ted was making the argument that paying strong safety prevents you from properly building a team and pointed at the w/l record of the Redskins who paid their SS a lot. They had over $20 million in cap space so paying the SS didn't prevent them from paying another player. The Redskins SS salary is entirely irrelevant to them sucking.

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Paying Jamal would mean our owner is still meddling and/or our shiny new GM doesn’t understand positional importance and market inefficiency.

Neither of these would be good signs for the future of the franchise.

 

 

Again, paying Jamal wouldn't prevent us from improving the team in any way. The idea that paying him somehow destroys our ability to build a winning team is nothing but a boogie man Jamal haters use.

[LAD_Brooklyn]

18 hours ago, TeddEY said:

The 49ers pay their SS 6.5M per

The Packers pay their SS 9M per

The Titans pay their SS 6M per

The Chiefs pay their SS 4M per

The most expensive SS in the league is employed by the team picking 2nd overall, at 14M per.

Did those teams draft well? Do they have quality players to pay? Have the Jets drafted well? Do we have other quality players to pay?

Tyrann Mathieu gets paid $21 mil this season despite his cap number being $6 mil.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

Did those teams draft well? Do they have quality players to pay? Have the Jets drafted well? Do we have other quality players to pay?

Tyrann Mathieu gets paid $21 mil this season despite his cap number being $6 mil.

Ah, the old bad decision + bad decisions = good argument.

[Jetsfan80]

Again, paying Jamal wouldn't prevent us from improving the team in any way. The idea that paying him somehow destroys our ability to build a winning team is nothing but a boogie man Jamal haters use.

 

 

You severely overestimate how much cap space we have. That’s part of the disconnect here.

 

And it’s a big picture thing. A team that builds around a SS can’t be trusted to make good decisions elsewhere. Their understanding of resource allocation would thus be flawed.

 

[shuler82]

If you break down the Jets 2020 cap space against the number of players we actually have under contract, it’s not pretty.
 

This team is in dire need of an A+ draft to turn this team around. We simply don’t have the cash to be major players in FA. if we make the obvious cuts (Tru, Winters, Enunwa, Roberts) that gives us about $65M in space and starting roster holes at both OLB spots, CB, the entire OL minus C, and two WR spots. Pretend they resign Robby, Poole, Copeland and Beachum. You’re now looking at around $30M and holes at OLB, 3 OL, CB and a WR. 
 

So the idea that we can and should throw Adams a contract extension is a bit misguided. He’s our best player but for an organization that can barely afford to fill out a 53 man roster in 2020 you cant give a  safety a record breaking deal. That’s why I won’t be surprised  if Douglas gets an offer to his liking, he makes the trade.

[Barry McCockinner]

44 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

You severely overestimate how much cap space we have. That’s part of the disconnect here.

 

And it’s a big picture thing. A team that builds around a SS can’t be trusted to make good decisions elsewhere. Their understanding of resource allocation would thus be flawed.

 

We're not overestimating anything. You're trying to say there is a cap issue that doesn't exist. The cap goes up about $10 million every year.

Show us the cap issue you fantasize exists for the purpose of hating Jamal Adams. You keep claiming it exists - prove it. Lay it all out for us. Show us your boogie man.

Cap issues happen for four reasons:

1) Overpaying for veterans past their prime.

2) Drafting too many good players and you cannot afford to pay them all.

3) Poorly structured back loaded contracts.

4) A combination of 1,2 & 3.

Paying market value for all-pro level players you've drafted while they're in their prime is not a culprit for cap issues. These are the players you want to pay.

[Jetsfan80]

We're not overestimating anything. You're trying to say there is a cap issue that doesn't exist. The cap goes up about $10 million every year.
Show us the cap issue you fantasize exists for the purpose of hating Jamal Adams. You keep claiming it exists - prove it. Lay it all out for us. Show us your boogie man.
Cap issues happen for four reasons:
1) Overpaying for veterans past their prime.
2) Drafting too many good players and you cannot afford to pay them all.
3) Poorly structured back loaded contracts.
4) A combination of 1,2 & 3.
Paying market value for all-pro level players you've drafted while they're in their prime is not a culprit for cap issues. These are the players you want to pay.

I created 2 different threads showing what our cap situation is. I’m not posting that again here. Go find it.

[Barry McCockinner]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

I hate Jamal Adams. We shouldn't pay him.

 

 

got it.

[Jetsfan80]

got it.

 

I hate the idea of paying a me-first player $15M+ per when all our biggest needs are on offense. Especially when we’re already paying Mosley $17.5M per.

 

Make all the inane arguments you want about how paying him would be smart or not hurt us. No economist would agree with you there and that’s what counts.

 

[Jetsfan80]

Since you clearly want to be lazy, I’ll summarize it here: After paying guys like Beachum, Jordan Jenkins and Poole and cutting guys like Trumaine and Winters we’ll have somewhere in the neighborhood of $30-$35M for free agents and our draft picks.

 

That’s not nearly enough to fix the OL, WR, CB and EDGE groups.

 

Nor should we be relying on FA’s anyways. We need picks. Jamal is the best source to get a couple quality picks and build up the premium positions on the field.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

[Barry McCockinner]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I hate the idea of paying a me-first player $15M+ per when all our needs are on offense.

 

For the most part, we should be trying to team build through the draft. I'm not one of these don't ever build through free agency guys but my opinion is that FA moves should mostly be used as a stop gap. Spending a large percentage of the cap on free agent players other teams didn't want to pay rarely works out and has potential to put you in a bad cap position. Once in a while a team will make a mistake and allow a player in their prime to go to FA but not often. It's usually because they've hurt themselves with bad contracts elsewhere.

I think we are in agreement that building through the draft should be the priority in terms of team building. One of the major benefits of building through the draft is you have first dibs on locking up great players in their prime. When you hit - you should keep those gems and not make the mistake of allowing another team the opportunity to find the rare FA gem.

 

[Barry McCockinner]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Since you clearly want to be lazy, I’ll summarize it here: After paying guys like Beachum, Jordan Jenkins and Poole and cutting guys like Trumaine and Winters we’ll have somewhere in the neighborhood of $30-$35M for free agents and our draft picks.

 

That’s not nearly enough to fix the OL, WR, CB and EDGE groups.

 

Nor should we be relying on FA’s anyways. We need picks. Jamal is the best source to get a couple quality picks and build up the premium positions on the field.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Jets aren't fixing this roster in one off season. FA o-linemen very rarely work out and good edge players rarely make it to FA. Maybe we get lucky and find a solid stop gap WR in free agency. 

We should try and trade Q Williams if we want to pickup draft capital. That was the most ridiculously awful draft pick given the makeup of the team.

[Villain The Foe]

21 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Hey man I know you didn't refer to him as elite and I didnt mean to suggest you did ... My question has numerous parts concerning Robbie.

The way I envision offenses in the NFL they should be filled with guys that will smack defenses in the mouth. Run the ball down their throat, Keep the ball out of the other team's hands, and Big Possession type WR's that can contribute by moving the chains and break tackles and give the QB a big target when he has to throw the ball in your vicinity and rely on you to out muscle CB's to make plays . Keep in mind when you play really good elite defenses at times your receivers (no matter how good they are ) will have to fight for the ball in tight coverage. You go into the playoffs and this compounds to almost every game you play. You have to ask in a big playoff game do you trust Robbie to go up and make a huge contested catch to convert that big 4th and 5 to keep an important drive alive ? If you can say yes to that question or if you have seen Robbie do such a thing. The Job of a number 2 WR is to step up and make that play when your number 1 guy may be double covered or if the defense is pressuring your QB to run in the direction of that number 2 guy. I simply do not trust Robbie ot make that play and at times that's miss and go home.

In the case of Number 2 Money what actually is that ? if number ones are ranging down from 19 mil to 12 mil where does Robbie fall as a number 2 who is an incomplete player?

My bad for taking a day to get back to this. 

I generally understand what you're saying, though I dont entirely agree. The job of anyone is to do what their job is to do. 

This playoff question you have can literally be directed towards anyone on this team, especially any drafted Jets players given that we havent made the playoffs for a decade. 

To show you what I mean, I wont even debate the question. I'll fully agree with it for the sole purpose of taking it one step further.

Questions:

1. Can we trust our Oline to give the QB and WR's enough time to do their job?

2. Can we trust Sam to not over/under-throw Robby in a playoff game given that Sam constantly did so in the regular season, but instead hit him while in stride? 

Look, you simply dont trust Robby, and that's cool. 

But I cant trust the judgement of anyone who will say that they dont trust Robby, but then will go and say that they trust Sam or anything else on the offense if that's the case.

Robby Anderson is the only person off the top of my head that I can say has way outperformed his contract while playing on offense. I cant think of anyone else on offense who has done so. And he did that while not playing as a #2, but a #1 when we know darn well that the guy isnt a #1. 

 

Now, that I approached it that way, now let me address it the way I actually feel. 

If the Jets made ACTUALLY made the playoffs, that would be enough for me to not only trust Robby, but know that the resigning of Robby was the right thing to do. Simple as that. It doesnt mean that it was all on Robby, but it does mean that Robby contributed to that feat. 

The problem isnt Robby, the problem is poor drafting and poor coaching. 

[Jetsfan80]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Jets aren't fixing this roster in one off season. FA o-linemen very rarely work out and good edge players rarely make it to FA. Maybe we get lucky and find a solid stop gap WR in free agency. 
We should try and trade Q Williams if we want to pickup draft capital. That was the most ridiculously awful draft pick given the makeup of the team.

See I think we can fix about 50-75 % of our problems in one offseason with a competent draft.


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[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

See I think we can fix about 50-75 % of our problems in one offseason with a competent draft.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

 

Absolutely but a good FA offseason will have to go hand in hand with that. They say this draft is strong in OL and WR if that's really the case then we concentrate on that in the draft and any other needs via FA . I also would not mind grabbing what we might perceive to be good FA pick ups in both those areas as well totally concentrating on the Offense. Only thing I would push on D at all is a Pass Rusher but it has to be one who can do it from the OLB position rather than a DE

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Show us your boogie man.

 

If you're wondering who 80 is hes the dude on the drums. That's your bo0gie man

[Barry McCockinner]

4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

 

I prefer this version

 

[Barry McCockinner]

11 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

If you're wondering who 80 is hes the dude on the drums. That's your bo0gie man

I woulda pegged him for a tambourine man.

[Hael]

The claims being made in this thread  are a little strange.  

I have no problem with paying Jamal, I’m even leaning that way, but the notion that paying a fortune for your good players with expiring rookie deal is ALWAYS a good thing is really wrong.

Case in point, Mo Wilkerson.  That set our franchise back for years.

meanwhile there are free agents who have outputed massive benefits at premium costs.  Case in point, Jamie Collins had one of the best season of any LBer in the league, but was paid 3 million.  

as a general rule you can estimate the talent of a team by seeing how many players are overpaid vs underpaid relative to their statistical ranking.  A team like KC is in the SB because they have a player that should be making 40 million per year, but is instead making 5.  That’s 35 million dollars in talent differential and is a big reason why they’re so good relative to the rest of the league.

meanwhile we have overpaid almost every player on our roster and there are very few players who you could call underpaid.  Even amongst our draftees. Jamal for instance is making 7 mil per year, which puts him already in the top 6 highest paid SS in the league.  He’d be paid more with a new deal of course, but it’s difficult to estimate what his real value is in a dollar figure and whether he would be worth the premium that he will get for his first contract.

That’s a long term value added vs value lost assessment that only a GM can make and is the sort of calculation that they’re paid to make.

[redlichtie]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:41 PM, Losmeister said:

well put.

problem is until we can get a QB whose AVERAGE play is ABOVE AVERAGE and cretaes situations where we WIN...   aintg gonna happen.

so far the drafting of Sam has given us 2 years of poor QB play. (~44 QBR)  That needs to be in the 60 range yearly or we're ****ed.

I don’t disagree....our franchise QB cost a lot to move up and draft(those missing 2nd rounders sure coulda helped). But I’m not giving up on him yet....big year for him in 2021

need to give him firepower so that he gets the best chance to succeed but he also has to elevate those around him

[UnitedWhofans]

Hold on a moment. If the Buccaneers gave Jameis Winston 5 years surely we can give Sam Darnold 3 years?

[Beerfish]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:37 AM, Barry McCockinner said:

We're not overestimating anything. You're trying to say there is a cap issue that doesn't exist. The cap goes up about $10 million every year.

Show us the cap issue you fantasize exists for the purpose of hating Jamal Adams. You keep claiming it exists - prove it. Lay it all out for us. Show us your boogie man.

Cap issues happen for four reasons:

1) Overpaying for veterans past their prime.

2) Drafting too many good players and you cannot afford to pay them all.

3) Poorly structured back loaded contracts.

4) A combination of 1,2 & 3.

Paying market value for all-pro level players you've drafted while they're in their prime is not a culprit for cap issues. These are the players you want to pay.

Positional value, that is the answer right there.

If this move is in a vacuum then yes pay your all pro SS the cash and be happy but this team has so totally neglected many positions of higher value that by the time you cobble together players there your all pro SS has fallen off.

We also are going into year three of the QB and we have no oline at all.

If you can parlay as SS (a position of relatively low value in todays nfl) to help reset other positions you should do it.

The reason for the Adams talk right now?  He is never going to be at a higher value trade wise.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Beerfish said:

Positional value, that is the answer right there.

If this move is in a vacuum then yes pay your all pro SS the cash and be happy but this team has so totally neglected many positions of higher value that by the time you cobble together players there your all pro SS has fallen off.

We also are going into year three of the QB and we have no oline at all.

If you can parlay as SS (a position of relatively low value in todays nfl) to help reset other positions you should do it.

The reason for the Adams talk right now?  He is never going to be at a higher value trade wise.

That's absolutely fair. But I would want at least a 1 and 2 for him. He's coming off an All Pro year. That has to mean something

[Losmeister]

the multi pick franchise QB needs 4 yrs warmup to get up to speed...

 

pathetic