shuler82 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 9 hours ago, New York Mick said: The top OGs in this year’s FA aren’t going to be cheap. Relatively speaking still cheaper than a top flight OT or OLB or CB. I agree that OL can’t be overlooked, but while important, you can get by with lunch pail types on your interior line. There’s no need to draft a guard #5 or spend $15m on one. That’s not to say there aren’t exceptions like Nelson, or that we shouldn’t be looking to upgrade at every OL position this season, but there are smarter ways to build an OL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNJet Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said: Let me ask though - do you think Joe D should sign Scherff this offseason? Yes then draft us a stud LT and C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Jets should be drafting the best prospect at a position of need. If that's a guard this year, that would mean the draft did not fall favorably for them and they should probably do whatever they can to trade down and add a pick or two before making their selection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYJ1 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 And to your point, revamping the OL is the single biggest leap upward this team could make in one off season. All of a sudden, EVERY offensive player looks and plays MUCH better. The defense and special teams will also indirectly benefit from an overhauled OL. This is something Mac either didn't give a sh*t about or was too dumb. When Mac chose not to trade up in 2016 to select one of the top OL, Stanley, Conklin, Tunsil, that was the kiss of death for his career in NY. He just didn't know it yet. Because by far and away Mac's very WORST draft was 2016. The only decent player the Jets have from that draft is Jordan Jenkins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 11 hours ago, RobR said: It completely depends on the player. If you can find a Faneca or Hutchinson type of course they are worth it......just don't draft the next Warmack or Cooper. or cadigan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, LIJetsFan said: And as far as a wide receiver or cornerback is concerned… forget about it (in a deep New York voice). Such a sin is reserved for Maccagnan drafts, only (i.e. Quinnen Williams with Josh Allen on the board). Didn't agree with the article, but this in particularly caught my attention. If Mike Maccagnan drafted OL in the first round, he would've undoubtedly drafted a guard because of his inexplicable lack of understanding of positional value. WR and CB are huge needs for the NYJ, and they are much more highly valued positions in the NFL than OG. If they have a guard and WR ranked equally, the smart pick is the WR. It's not even close. This idea that the OL can only be fixed with a first round round pick is flat-out wrong, and if JD goes into the draft with an OL or bust mentality at pick #11, he's an idiot. He should be shoring up the OL in free agency, and putting himself in position to take the best prospect at a position of need (easy with all of the Jets' needs) in the first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section314 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 48 minutes ago, chirorob said: I prefer a center as well. But there are no centers worth taking top 15 this year. Totally agree. It’ how I rank the importance of the two positions. Center>Guard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYJ1 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, slats said: Didn't agree with the article, but this in particularly caught my attention. If Mike Maccagnan drafted OL in the first round, he would've undoubtedly drafted a guard because of his inexplicable lack of understanding of positional value. WR and CB are huge needs for the NYJ, and they are much more highly valued positions in the NFL than OG. If they have a guard and WR ranked equally, the smart pick is the WR. It's not even close. This idea that the OL can only be fixed with a first round round pick is flat-out wrong, and if JD goes into the draft with an OL or bust mentality at pick #11, he's an idiot. He should be shoring up the OL in free agency, and putting himself in position to take the best prospect at a position of need (easy with all of the Jets' needs) in the first. I disagree completely besides Mac's lack of understanding importance of the OL. It depends on what your teams needs are. If you have a Guard and a WR ranked equally and you are as hard up as the Jets have been for OL talent, the choice is easy. Also, the ONLY way Joe Douglas is considered to be an idiot is if he selects bad players. TALENT and NEED always trumps these analytical statements you are trying to claim as law. You need look no further than Mike Macagnan to know that. Mac consistently avoided need in favor of taking what HE thought was the BAP. Those BAP players turned out to be for the most part POOR picks. He also consistently selected BAD players regardless of what round he was picking in. Now, I do think shopping in FA for an OL is necessity in this case, but fulfilling ALL of your needs for the OL in FA constitutes investing too much money on one positional group. It's a waste. The best approach for this team is to utilize BOTH FA and the draft to overhaul the OL. It's a sound approach when you're starting from the ground up which JD is essentially doing. It's possible that only TWO OL could remain on the Jets opening day roster this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 minute ago, NYJ1 said: I disagree completely besides Mac's lack of understanding importance of the OL. It depends on what your teams needs are. If you have a Guard and a WR ranked equally and you are as hard up as the Jets have been for OL talent, the choice is easy. Yes, the choice is easy; you take the WR, a position the Jets are similarly hard up for, especially if they decide to let RA walk. Excellent guards can be found in free agency. They can buy one. Stud WRs only become available in free agency around the time of their psychotic breaks. If you can land a stud WR on a rookie, you do it over a guard every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYJ1 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, slats said: Yes, the choice is easy; you take the WR, a position the Jets are similarly hard up for, especially if they decide to let RA walk. Excellent guards can be found in free agency. They can buy one. Stud WRs only become available in free agency around the time of their psychotic breaks. If you can land a stud WR on a rookie, you do it over a guard every day. Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 9 hours ago, Maxman said: Top 5 you take a defensive tackle. Or a safety. If you are picking top 5 and a hall of fame guard is there, you trade him for a DT and a Safety. Or...if you are picking #1, you trade away the right to draft not one, but two HoF OTs for an ILB. True story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 minute ago, NYJ1 said: Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. We disagree, firmly. That's fine. I recognize the need on the OL, but to pretend the Jets don't have an equal and pressing need at a higher positional value in WR is, IMHO, the utter nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Great question. My guess is if you don't have good guards and you can't run the ball or pass the ball because of it they're probably pretty valuable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYJ1 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 35 minutes ago, slats said: We disagree, firmly. That's fine. I recognize the need on the OL, but to pretend the Jets don't have an equal and pressing need at a higher positional value in WR is, IMHO, the utter nonsense. It's NOT an equal and pressing need. That's exactly the point. The WR Corp at least had SOME talent. Thomas, Anderson, Crowder. The OL has zero, zilch, nata. They currently do not even possess a single starting caliber OL. Not to mention adding a WR can make your team better in certain situations, ie the passing game. Whereas the OL can make your team better in both run and passing AND make the WR's that much better to boot. Suddenly, those AVERAGE WR's you may have look much better because they have more time to get open. They can break off routes in that scenario when the QB has extra time to scan the field. Mark Sanchez, of all people, did it all the time in the playoffs no less. Motioning his WR to certain parts of the field, in plain view of the defense, so he could throw to them. And yet the defense remained helpless to stop it. Hell, it happened most recently for the Jets in their playoff game against the patsies. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 At the end of the day the teams that win consistently do two things well, block and tackle. Games are won at the point of attack. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Imagine our team as it was constructed this year playing the 49ers. What would you be thinking during the game? a) Our WRs can't get open? b) Our OL can't protect Sam long enough to make a read, and we can't run on them. If you don't fix (b), then (a) isn't going to make much difference. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, nycdan said: Imagine our team as it was constructed this year playing the 49ers. What would you be thinking during the game? a) Our WRs can't get open? b) Our OL can't protect Sam long enough to make a read, and we can't run on them. If you don't fix (b), then (a) isn't going to make much difference. I'd think George Kittle is freaking awesome. Blocks like a tackle, catches passes like a WR. Low value position that's the absolute key to the 49ers run and pass game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustiniak Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, nycdan said: Imagine our team as it was constructed this year playing the 49ers. What would you be thinking during the game? a) Our WRs can't get open? b) Our OL can't protect Sam long enough to make a read, and we can't run on them. If you don't fix (b), then (a) isn't going to make much difference. C) they can’t run the ball at all fixing the OL helps everything at the same time. They can still draft wrs in the 2nd-4th rounds who can be very productive. But why invest so much draft capital in getting darnold and then not provide him with the most important thing, an OL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 11 hours ago, nycdan said: If I could have one offensive lineman in his prime from all of NFL history it would be a Guard, not a Tackle. The next five guys would probably all be tackles, but Larry Allen...I want one of those. Or a John Hannah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, Biggs said: I'd think George Kittle is freaking awesome. Blocks like a tackle, catches passes like a WR. Low value position that's the absolute key to the 49ers run and pass game. If you have a top 5 TE its certainly not a low value position because they always wind up in some kind of mismatch Especially if you have a number 1 WR . We have 2 very good TE's IMHO and if we run the ball with both in the game it will open up a whole new dimension for this offense's unpredictability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 15 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said: A few years back, people on JN were saying that you don't draft a guard in the top 5 (or maybe top 10?) This offseason, however, I see a lot of people saying we should sign Brandon Scherff (who was a top 5 pick by the Redskins, the same year we drafted Leonard Williams). Based on these things, has the value of OL increased in the past few years and so now an OG would be a smart pick in the top 5 (or top 10)? Or would it still be a waste of a pick that high? Also, if we have to pay a fortune for an OG in FA then could an argument be made that it would be a smart investment to take one top 5 (or 10)? I was all on the Scherff train back then. Was mocked for not drafting a guard in top 10. Was moot because he was off the board when we were up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said: If you have a top 5 TE its certainly not a low value position because they always wind up in some kind of mismatch Especially if you have a number 1 WR . We have 2 very good TE's IMHO and if we run the ball with both in the game it will open up a whole new dimension for this offense's unpredictability Yet they are rarely taken off the board early. Kittle is a bit of a freak. He blocks like an OL man and is as good as it gets as a pass catching TE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Smashmouth said: Or a John Hannah No doubt. Usually considered 1a and 1b. But I never really got to watch Hannah play. And there is one play of Allen's, one of my top-10 favorite NFL plays of all time, that puts him over the top for me. All the stories about "Allen-itis" are amazing. And the way he pancaked the best DLs of his era are also amazing. But this...defies logic. A 324 lb. Larry Allen chasing down a linebacker like a cheetah hunting for dinner. I mean who DOES that anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirorob Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 4 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said: I’ve heard that Peyton Manning story a bunch of times but has it ever been confirmed? As for BP trading back, remember that the Jets gave up multiple top draft picks to acquire him in the first place so that was probably the impetus behind that trade. And let’s not forget that BP signed a HOF center in Kevin Mawae. And Farrior went on to be a good player, just not for us. And BP had us up 10-0 in the 2H against the Broncos in the AFC CG with the Falcons (who we’d beaten handily that season already) as the SB opponent. That was the closest we’ve been to (realistically) winning a SB since Namath. And BP did step down to allow BB to be HC of the NYJ so he did the right thing there too The biggest thing with the trade backs, is he didn't get much. He went from #1 overall to #8, and picked up a 3rd, a 4th, and something else. That's it. Combine that with the fact the guys picked at #1 was Orlando Pace (HOF left tackle) and Walter Jones (HOF left tackle), and we got James Farrior, who didn't really hit his stride until his final season with the Jets, and then became a player with the Steelers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio State NY Jets fan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 every time the Jets selected another player over a first round Guard, the Guard was better, had a longer career and would have helped the Jets more then the player chosen Guard > S, ILB, TE, DL 1 - QB 2 - Protect the QB 3 - Disrupt the other QB 4 - Weaponz for QB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClashFan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 With regards to the WR vs. OL argument. The Jets have one decent WR, two if Anderson resigns. So yes, WR is a need. They need at least one early in the draft, but that does NOT have to be in the first round b/c the WR talent is very deep this year. The second round pick or the early third should yield a very nice prospect. However OL is a desperate need. There are currently ZERO decent OL on the roster. Zero. And that includes Beachum and Harrison, who some guys around here like for some reason. Those guys are JAGs at best, they're just backup quality. So, the Jets need 5 new starting OL. They should try hard to sign one quality OL in free agency. They will have to overpay, but they can afford to since not a lot of money is tied up on the OL at this time. Conklin (RT) would be ideal if they can nab him. Or, one of the two quality G's available. Don't just sign a token JAG like Mac used to do. Get someone GOOD, regardless of the spot on the line. Then, draft best LT available in the first (maybe after a trade down if the top 3-4 guys are taken). Then, in the second and/or third, try to grab the best C on the board. After that, best OL of any position. Bring in 3 guys drafted in rounds 1-3 (Jets have 4 picks) and hope that 2 of them step up and can start right away. Maybe draft another in round 4 or 5, too. I hope the Jets can go LT, C, WR, OL with those first four picks (maybe swap the order of the C and WR). Yeah, next year probably gonna have to start 2 guys currently on the roster. Maybe Edoga has a good offseason conditioning program and steps up at RT or RG next year. Harrison will probably be here, hopefully as a backup. Then, draft more OL next year, too. Hopefully there are 5 new starters in there two years from now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 1:33 AM, Untouchable said: Not really He played OT at Iowa but the Redksins were’t drafting him with the idea of replacing a proven pro-bowler like Trent Williams at the time. Yes really. See my unnecessarily long post above yours. Williams was coming off what was a down season for him. Forget his pro bowl honors in 2014. Faneca got that same honor in 2009, had over $5MM of his $7MM guaranteed for 2010, and we cut him anyway. Because he wasn’t even good in 2009, let alone great, despite getting voted to the pro bowl. This was their situation in 2015: Williams’ contract, on the day Scherff was drafted, only ran through that 2015 season. As a rookie early that summer, they tried to play Scherff at RT, not at guard, but that failed. Only then did they extend Williams, at the end of August. Had Scherff played well at RT, there’s every chance they’d have moved him to LT in year 2, at less than half per year that it cost to extend Williams. Probably would have been able to swing a tag & trade for Williams, too, rather than simply letting him go to free agency. Scherff was not drafted at #5 just to play guard. That was a worst case scenario & ended up that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYJ1 Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 23 hours ago, TheClashFan said: With regards to the WR vs. OL argument. The Jets have one decent WR, two if Anderson resigns. So yes, WR is a need. They need at least one early in the draft, but that does NOT have to be in the first round b/c the WR talent is very deep this year. The second round pick or the early third should yield a very nice prospect. However OL is a desperate need. There are currently ZERO decent OL on the roster. Zero. And that includes Beachum and Harrison, who some guys around here like for some reason. Those guys are JAGs at best, they're just backup quality. So, the Jets need 5 new starting OL. They should try hard to sign one quality OL in free agency. They will have to overpay, but they can afford to since not a lot of money is tied up on the OL at this time. Conklin (RT) would be ideal if they can nab him. Or, one of the two quality G's available. Don't just sign a token JAG like Mac used to do. Get someone GOOD, regardless of the spot on the line. Then, draft best LT available in the first (maybe after a trade down if the top 3-4 guys are taken). Then, in the second and/or third, try to grab the best C on the board. After that, best OL of any position. Bring in 3 guys drafted in rounds 1-3 (Jets have 4 picks) and hope that 2 of them step up and can start right away. Maybe draft another in round 4 or 5, too. I hope the Jets can go LT, C, WR, OL with those first four picks (maybe swap the order of the C and WR). Yeah, next year probably gonna have to start 2 guys currently on the roster. Maybe Edoga has a good offseason conditioning program and steps up at RT or RG next year. Harrison will probably be here, hopefully as a backup. Then, draft more OL next year, too. Hopefully there are 5 new starters in there two years from now. Compliments. This is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache 51 Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Football is a simple sport. OL is a necessity, Joe will build one in good time. He is behind the eight ball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Every team out there is looking for the dominant offensive line now. A premium has been placed on the position more than ever because: Elite rushers are not just edge-guys anymore, you're seeing interior DL getting upfield and disrupting the backfield whereas, in the past, interior DL were "space eaters" and hole cloggers. Also, QB's are expensive and losing one to injury could (and usually does) mean an end to a team's season. And then there's the old reasons: more time for the QB to find a target, more time for a WR to finish a route, more wide-open rushing lanes, etc. Its virtually impossible to have an effective offense with a below-average OL. And the truly elite OL don't move. Teams lock them up for a decade or more once they find one. And there are teams that are perennially looking to improve their lines (Jets, Giants, Dolphins, Colts) which creates a high market value. So yeah, you draft a guard early if he's the closest thing to a slam-dunk. Centers can usually go later because teams generally only carry one starting-caliber center, meaning there is a greater pool of centers available coming from the college ranks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 7:01 AM, TuscanyTile2 said: Let me ask though - do you think Joe D should sign Scherff this offseason? I don't know what his health situation is, but sure. Put it this way, I think we do better to draft a LT and sign a FA guard than the other way around. The starter-worthy FA LTs available are typically... coming off an injured or sub-meh season and guaranteeing starter money to cross your fingers hoping for a bounce-back (e.g. Beachum '15 then Beachum '16) meh, yet still at high premium pricetag (Solder in '16, possibly DJ Humphries this year, and while he won't get $16MM+ per, Beachum won't be near $8MM again either); guaranteeing still-significant money in or into their mid-late 30s like Penn and Whitworth, and this year J.Peters and again Whitworth at 38 or T.Williams who got hurt every year in his late 20s and will also cost a draft pick), where you don't know which season will be the last good one, and that may very well have already been is last good one prior to signing him. Sometimes, though less common, a team just lets go of a good + young one because they feel they'll be fine without spending so much on the veteran LT (T.Brown/New England); or they already have an even better LT on the roster, and can't keep them both at recent, premium, veteran LT rates (Conklin/Tennessee). In these uncommon cases - made even less common by a number of recent LT-starved draft classes - the UFA LT still comes with a very high price, exceeding any NFL guard by millions per year, but at least the position is filled and there are no upcoming concerns related to age. It's hard to say, because I'm not enough of a draft nut to evaluate what LT prospect we are likely to get at #11. I'd go after Scherff (if he's 100% healthy; I'm more wary than I used to be after the Osemele mess) OR Conklin. Yeah it'd be even better + transformational to the line to have both, in the same way Woody/Faneca changed things immediately; but it's unrealistic, and anyway lots of teams in need of OL help and/or with lots more cap space than we've got will be putting in bids for each; so getting just one of them is no slam dunk. But yeah with the line in this state, assuming they're both tip-top healthy, I don't see how we can stay away from bidding on one or both of them. FA is not my preferred way to start building an OL (I'll start believing Edoga is a serious part of an OL rebuild when he stops sucking). But it's unrealistic - not to mention counterproductive - at this point to defiantly stand by on principle because "Wah, I wanted to build the right way, through the draft, and then use FA to fill in the last holes." Great strategy if you've truly started that draft rebuild while the prior veterans were still on the roster, like in '06, but we didn't do that. Even if we try to find our future LT through the draft, we'll still need to sign a stopgap who's a legitimate starter just in case the draft's top 10 goes LT-LT-LT earlier than we thought it would, or if the WR value there is over the top better than the last remaining LT theoretically worthy of a #11 pick. Someone like Peters - yes at 38 - would fit that mold, and we won't be invested in him for a lengthy time, of course. Never mind he won't be big money at his age either, and Douglas has some longstanding and fairly recent familiarity with the player. In truth I know little of his demands and playing desires and no one yet knows what'll be the interest from other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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