Darnold..Best in his Class

[Big_Slick]

7 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

I'm talking about the "thread the needle" event. I believe Lamar scored 12  points and Deshaun scored 9 points.

They're both a running QB's first and a passing QB's 2nd. Deshaun is better than Lamar but that doesn't say much at all. Look at Mahomes, he's a true QB who utilizes the running game when the D gives it to him. He's more than capable of playing a straight up pro QB style of play. He can read D's and isn't limited to a one read RPO.

Lamar and Deshaun can be shut down with a good D that makes them play QB and not a RB that can throw a few easy passes. Of course, if/when those guys get dinged - ankle sprain, hammy or knee injury they will be forced to play a true QB style of play and D's will feast on them when they don't have to worry about the QB being a RB. Not to mention their longevity as a running QB doesn't look good.

[Losmeister]

1 hour ago, Dcat said:

Right now Jackson is the clear leader in the class.  Mayfield, Allen and Darnold are well behind Jackson, with Rosen out of the contest for the time being.  Because of the missed time and practice, I'd put Darnold behind Allen and Mayfield for the moment.  But that doesn't imply that this won't change.   I'd imagine each QB develops at a diff't pace and each will have his own setbacks along the way.  But right now Jackson has come flying out of the gate and is the leader after his sophomore year.   When we look at this in 10 years, I doubt it's Jackson on top.  

how would YOU suggest this be assessed?

me? I say average QBR for all seaons. I know Jet fans like to "let's not include his bad games" approach but thats not how it works in the real world.

Sams QBR is highest in the last 8 games of each year combined....

in the real world Sam is a losing QB with a below avg QBR whose footwork stillsucks.

[Dcat]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

how would YOU suggest this be assessed?

me? I say average QBR for all seaons. I know Jet fans like to "let's not include his bad games" approach but thats not how it works in the real world.

Sams QBR is highest in the last 8 games of each year combined....

in the real world Sam is a losing QB with a below avg QBR whose footwork stillsucks.

I have no idea what statistical tool you should use.  QB stats are funky anyway.  Always hated QBR.  I think in 10 years we will all know which of the 4 is the best.  If it comes down to nitpicking decimals over average yardage or  TDs per game, then it's pretty much a wash.  

[FidelioJet]

For me the question is - if I could go back and pick any one of the five, knowing what I know now....

My answer is still Darnold and it’s an easy choice.

[Big_Slick]

8 hours ago, Losmeister said:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2018-draft-class-qbs-future

This is laughable. Baker showed just how much he sucks, surrounded by top level talent and he crapped the bed. Allen choked like a scared little girl in the playoffs, he looked like he was lost. Lamar is a RB and will be very shortly exposed as a QB who is very inaccurate.

PFF stats are pure BS. How about actually watching the games and taking into consideration the surrounding  circumstances and then making a decision of which QB has a higher likelihood of being a FQB.

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

No we're not. You're trying to take his pathetic performance in a probowl contest and associate that with his ability as a QB. 

Im telling you that doing so is ridiculous when the man has experience in actual football games. 

 

Im going to move on from this. 

No, that is what you are assuming. What I said is that skill competition  should be easy for an NFL QB, they shouldn't suck at it. You are saying it doesn't  matter he sucked at it because his WR ability  to run under his passes that are probably not in the exact place both would like it makes it a moot point. That is true, the thing that matters in a game is the WR comes down with the ball. 

His ability  as a QB is a combo of his running ability and his throwing. Since this competition  didn't  account his whole skill set, it is not indicative of his ability as a QB but is sure as Hell is on his ability as a passer. 

[Patriot Killa]

4 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Where have you been, and why couldn't you have posted this in like, maybe about 50 different threads?

Because he’s from TwoBillsDrive.

[hamat711]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

For me the question is - if I could go back and pick any one of the five, knowing what I know now....

My answer is still Darnold and it’s an easy choice.

So you want the least accomplished player who has shown the least, with the lowest ceiling?

Sam's growth is not guaranteed and he has developed the slowest besides Baker who regressed.

If Sam shows the same improvement in his 3rd year as he did last year, he will still average less TDs per game than Lamar's and Allen;s 2nd year and he will still be behind Bakers rookie year. He will also have more turnovers than all of them besides Bakers Rookie year.

The answer to your question is Lamar. Even without his legs, he has shown more as a passer than the entire class. Even if he loses a step, he will still be the fastest QB in the league in year 10. Vick was having a MVP caliber season in his 10th year in the league and played well into his 12th. Lamar is so much better than VIck and plays smarter.

[hamat711]

9 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Because he’s from TwoBillsDrive.

Nothing I stated was wrong and nothing was cherry picked. He is 3rd or 4th in every single metric. If you find me any common metric that puts Darnold 1st or 2nd I will concede.

People here saying they would take Darnold over Lamar are delusional. Any Bills or Browns fan who would take their QB over Lamar right now are also delusional. 

[Patriot Killa]

Just now, hamat711 said:

Nothing I stated was wrong and nothing was cherry picked. He is 3rd or 4th in every single metric. If you find me any common metric that puts Darnold 1st or 2nd I will concede.

People here saying they would take Darnold over Lamar are delusional. Any Bills or Browns fan who would take their QB over Lamar right now are also delusional. 

I didn’t say it was or wasn’t. I simply stated where you’re from.

[Patriot Killa]

I’ll also take Darnold over all of the others. See you in 5 years.

[hamat711]

29 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

This is laughable. Baker showed just how much he sucks, surrounded by top level talent and he crapped the bed. Allen choked like a scared little girl in the playoffs, he looked like he was lost. Lamar is a RB and will be very shortly exposed as a QB who is very inaccurate.

The Baker part is true, but sh*tting on Allen and Lamar for having bad playoff games looks stupid when Darnold, who hasn't come close to making the playoffs, last game was worst of the 3 vs the Bills backups.

[hamat711]

2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I’ll also take Darnold over all of the others. See you in 5 years.

Can you explain why?

I get Baker. Attitude problems and an awful second year. He failed to perform with a top RB, and two top WRs. He has a tendency to bail from a clean pocket which makes his line look bad. 

I also understand Allen. He was 32nd in completion % two years in a row. He tries to make things happen too much and can take bad sacks such as the one in the playoffs and the lateral. 

But why Lamar? Only logical explanation I can think of is the color of his jersey.

[Big_Slick]

4 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

And to this day I see nothing wrong with that.i will never regret that trade and jumping the Bills and others to eventually draft Sam Darnold. The one ballsy thing Maccagnan ever did and I’m appreciative of the move despite the Lamar/Ravens success.

The best thing Macc ever did was to LUCK into Sam at #3 overall. That trade was horrible. Giving up three 2nd round picks to move up from #6 to #3 was stupid.

Macc stepped in crap when the moronic Browns took Baker at #1 and Gettleman took a RB at #2 leaving the Jets with what will be the undisputed best QB from that that draft and only 2nd to Mahomes in the decade.

That draft should have gone Sam #1, Baker #2 and the Jets having the choice of Rosen or Allen - both losers.

[Patriot Killa]

2 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

Can you explain why?

I get Baker. Attitude problems and an awful second year. He failed to perform with a top RB, and two top WRs. He has a tendency to bail from a clean pocket which makes his line look bad. 

I also understand Allen. He was 32nd in completion % two years in a row. He tries to make things happen too much and can take bad sacks such as the one in the playoffs and the lateral. 

But why Lamar? Only logical explanation I can think of is the color of his jersey.

He is a system QB who has to have the right play caller to be as effective as he is. Greg Roman is a master of the pistol formation and did very well this likewise running QB, Colin Kaepernick on the 2013 SB run. He also ran 20 times in his last game, the divisional round against Tennessee. Derrick Henry, a heavy duty, heavy use RB, ran the ball 30 times. 10 times more than Lamar Jackson. That is not sustainable, that is not someone I want to build my franchise around for 10 years. It’s a flash in the pan that we often always see with these running QB’s. He is also a limited passer outside the hashes. He isn’t someone who can make every single pass on the field. Is he working out for Baltimore? Yeah, pretty greatly, he’s the MVP and exciting to watch. Darnold has work to do but I see someone who has amazing spatial awareness, someone who can anticipate throws, look DB’s off, have the ball in the the correct spot before the WR even gets to the top of his route. I see someone with eyes in the back of his head in the pocket, very nice ability to escape inner pocket pressure and make off-balance throws accurately. He is not a finish product, he hasn’t had the perfect situation, he hasn’t had guys tailor offenses seemingly perfect to his skill set, he hasn’t had anything more than below average for offensive line and yet the youngest starting QB since the merger willed his team to finish 6-2. He’s constantly being asked to be the reason they fail or succeed on the drive despite zero help and spotty coaching..oh and 0.4 seconds to throw the ball.

Are you wrong about Lamar, Darnold, Allen, ect from a numbers standpoint? No you aren’t wrong but as a Bills fan, you cannot add the proper context to do this POV any justice.

I will take Darnold and we can talk in 3-4 years I have a feeling he looks better than 3rd or 4th best # wise when he has an actual team around him and not bums. Robby Anderson shows up when he wants to. L Bell was misused and contained behind a historically bad offensive line, Enunwa’s neck is toast and Crowder is the only real threat...at 5’9 and 70 pounds soak and wet.

[Big_Slick]

39 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

The Baker part is true, but sh*tting on Allen and Lamar for having bad playoff games looks stupid when Darnold, who hasn't come close to making the playoffs, last game was worst of the 3 vs the Bills backups.

Please take into account the teams Allen and Lamar had surrounding them and then take a look at the garbage Idzik and Macc drafted/FA signed the past seven years. Sam exceeded all expectations and will excel after two years of being in the same scheme and more importantly the players JD will add to the team.

[Villain The Foe]

25 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I’ll also take Darnold over all of the others. See you in 5 years.

5 years? 

That's a long time, especially when we generally look at 3 years as indication of ability along with guys within this class already becoming MVP's in the league by their 2nd year.

Must we wait a total of 7 years? 

[Villain The Foe]

 

7 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Please take into account the teams Allen and Lamar had surrounding them and then take a look at the garbage Idzik and Macc drafted/FA signed the past seven years. Sam exceeded all expectations and will excel after two years of being in the same scheme and more importantly the players JD will add to the team.

"All expectations"???

Those expectations had to be low as f___. 

 

[Patriot Killa]

11 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

5 years? 

That's a long time, especially when we generally look at 3 years as indication of ability along with guys within this class already becoming MVP's in the league by their 2nd year.

Must we wait a total of 7 years? 

No I didn’t say that. It was more of a tongue in cheek statement...meaning see you in the future to discuss it.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

1 hour ago, Losmeister said:

how would YOU suggest this be assessed?

me? I say average QBR for all seaons. I know Jet fans like to "let's not include his bad games" approach but thats not how it works in the real world.

Sams QBR is highest in the last 8 games of each year combined....

in the real world Sam is a losing QB with a below avg QBR whose footwork stillsucks.

How can you evaluate ANY QBs footwork with the so-called OL that Darnold has had in front of him his entire first 2 years?  The kid rarely has 2 seconds once the ball is snapped.  His first year, half the time the ball wasn’t even snapped properly haha.

You like stats?  The Jet OL was one of only 3 in NFL history to give up 50+ sacks and have a running game go for less than 3.5 a carry.  Darnold has never even been able to “sell play action” ONCE due to what the Stumblebum did to the Jet roster.

I would really hold off on trying to grade Darnold at this point.  But being the 10th Rated Passer in the NFL over the last 8 games MIGHT mean he is trending in a positive direction.  It’s actually a miracle, playing with the 2019 Jets.

If Douglas is able to put some pros around Darnold it’ll be crystal clear why he was drafted where he was.

[hamat711]

21 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

He is a system QB who has to have the right play caller to be as effective as he is. Greg Roman is a master of the pistol formation and did very well this likewise running QB, Colin Kaepernick on the 2013 SB run. He also ran 20 times in his last game, the divisional round against Tennessee. Derrick Henry, a heavy duty, heavy use RB, ran the ball 30 times. 10 times more than Lamar Jackson. That is not sustainable, that is not someone I want to build my franchise around for 10 years. It’s a flash in the pan that we often always see with these running QB’s. He is also a limited passer outside the hashes. He isn’t someone who can make every single pass on the field. Is he working out for Baltimore? Yeah, pretty greatly, he’s the MVP and exciting to watch. Darnold has work to do but I see someone who has amazing spatial awareness, someone who can anticipate throws, look DB’s off, have the ball in the the correct spot before the WR even gets to the top of his route. I see someone with eyes in the back of his head in the pocket, very nice ability to escape inner pocket pressure and make off-balance throws accurately. He is not a finish product, he hasn’t had the perfect situation, he hasn’t had guys tailor offenses seemingly perfect to his skill set, he hasn’t had anything more than below average for offensive line and yet the youngest starting QB since the merger willed his team to finish 6-2. He’s constantly being asked to be the reason they fail or succeed on the drive despite zero help and spotty coaching..oh and 0.4 seconds to throw the ball.

Are you wrong about Lamar, Darnold, Allen, ect from a numbers standpoint? No you aren’t wrong but as a Bills fan, you cannot add the proper context to do this POV any justice.

I will take Darnold and we can talk in 3-4 years I have a feeling he looks better than 3rd or 4th best # wise when he has an actual team around him and not bums. Robby Anderson shows up when he wants to. L Bell was misused and contained behind a historically bad offensive line, Enunwa’s neck is toast and Crowder is the only real threat...at 5’9 and 70 pounds soak and wet.

I'm not going to say you are wrong because these are all opinions.

1. I think you aren't giving Lamar enough credit thou. He isn't a system QB. Lamar's skill set just opens the playbook more. It would be a waste to not implement his legs into the scheme. That does not make him a system QB. Last year Lamar and the Ravens went 6-1. The Ravens went from one of the worst rushing teams last year to the best once Lamar became the starter. The YPC for his RBs also went up when he became the starter. Greg Roman wasn't the OC till this year. None of Greg's former QBs have even come close to doing what Lamar has done.

2. How does me being a BIlls fan impact my POV on Lamar vs Darnold. If this thread was about Darnold being better than Allen, I wouldn't say anything, but saying Darnold is better than the MVP is laughable.

3. I agree Darnold doesn't have a team around him now, mainly due to his o-line but when will he have one? The Jets need 4+ O-lineman, 3 CBs, at least 1 edge rusher, and at least 1 WR. Even with two new lineman, the O-line will still be bottom 3rd and it will hard to get a better replacement for Robby Anderson. Unless Joe Douglas has a 2018 Colts offseason, the Talent on offense might not get much better for Darnold. Gase is still the HC so Bell is still likely to be misused also

[Skeet Ulrich]

53 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

How can you evaluate ANY QBs footwork with the so-called OL that Darnold has had in front of him his entire first 2 years?  The kid rarely has 2 seconds once the ball is snapped.  His first year, half the time the ball wasn’t even snapped properly haha.

You like stats?  The Jet OL was one of only 3 in NFL history to give up 50+ sacks and have a running game go for less than 3.5 a carry.  Darnold has never even been able to “sell play action” ONCE due to what the Stumblebum did to the Jet roster.

I would really hold off on trying to grade Darnold at this point.  But being the 10th Rated Passer in the NFL over the last 8 games MIGHT mean he is trending in a positive direction.  It’s actually a miracle, playing with the 2019 Jets.

If Douglas is able to put some pros around Darnold it’ll be crystal clear why he was drafted where he was.

When exactly should we hold Darnold accountable for his poor play on the field? All I hear around here are excuses for him. I saw plenty of times this season where he had ample time in the pocket and just made plain stupid decisions with the football. He's very cavalier with his passing. Was in college, hasn't changed in the pros.

The guys we could have drafted instead of Darnold are: Jackson(2019 MVP), Mahomes(2018 MVP, 2019 AFC champ), Watson(2X Pro Bowler, 24-13 as a NFL starter).

I know everyone here is heavily invested in having Darnold be this great QB... but what if he just isn't? There's a lot of data to suggest he'll never even be as good as Watson, forget about Mahomes or Jackson.

[hamat711]

1 hour ago, Big_Slick said:

Please take into account the teams Allen and Lamar had surrounding them and then take a look at the garbage Idzik and Macc drafted/FA signed the past seven years. Sam exceeded all expectations and will excel after two years of being in the same scheme and more importantly the players JD will add to the team.

Allen was drafted by a team that had the 2nd worst o-line behind Arizona and the worst WR group in the league. He was supported by the worst rushing attack in the league his rookie year also. Only 1 offensive starter returned for Allen's 2nd year which was his LT. The Bills o-line is still in the bottom half of the league and their biggest need is still WR.

Lamar had a bunch of Jags at WR and two rookie TEs his first year. Yes he had a decent o-line but it's not some elite unit like the Eagles or Colts.  The Ravens WRs are still a weakness but Hollywood gives them potential.

It's not like Allen and Lamar are surrounded by elite talent.

Yes both those teams have top 10 defenses but so did the Jets. They Jets also had a top 10 defense according to DVOA. 

Hopefully Joe Douglas can add on to the team, but given the current holes on the Jets and their resources, its going to be hard. Joe Douglas is also a bit of an unknown looking at the eagles draft history during his tenure and the moves he has made since he came to the Jets.

 

[Losmeister]

4 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I know everyone here is heavily invested in having Darnold be this great QB... but what if he just isn't? There's a lot of data to suggest he'll never even be as good as Watson, forget about Mahomes or Jackson.

it's looking like another USC bust so far...

the SamPanties Wonderbread Crew is just a bunch of football illiterates so far...

[Patriot Killa]

8 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

it's looking like another USC bust so far...

the SamPanties Wonderbread Crew is just a bunch of football illiterates so far...

And you’re so much above us and more football intelligent aren’t you average joe #55,783

[Skeet Ulrich]

10 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

it's looking like another USC bust so far...

the SamPanties Wonderbread Crew is just a bunch of football illiterates so far...

I don't know about bust, but people are talking about him as if he's predestined to be this great MVP caliber QB and I just don't see it.

He's basically a rich man's Jameis Winston

[Losmeister]

13 minutes ago, hamat711 said:

It's not like Allen and Lamar are surrounded by elite talent.

Yes both those teams have top 10 defenses but so did the Jets. They Jets also had a top 10 defense according to DVOA. 

say nay to FACTS!!!

[Losmeister]

4 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

And you’re so much above us and more football intelligent aren’t you average joe...

judging by your willful ignorance, so far, yes. exactly.

[Losmeister]

2 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I don't know about bust, but people are talking about him as if he's predestined to be this great MVP caliber QB and I just don't see it.

He's basically a rich man's Jameis Winston

SO FAR is very important in that statement. 

SO FAR? According to all the draft capital used, more than any team in the NFL, yes, an underpreforming player. 

is there another word? disappointement? 

i mean...  there is no more embarrasing performance by an NFL QB in the last 2 years than the seeing ghosts, is there?

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

judging by your willful ignorance, so far, yes. exactly.

Nah you’ve just always come off as a condescending ass so really just mocking you to pass the time.

[Losmeister]

5 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

I don't know about bust, but people are talking about him as if he's predestined to be this great MVP caliber QB and I just don't see it.

He's basically a rich man's Jameis Winston

you dont see it becuase the evidence isnt there. 

 

[Losmeister]

4 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

you dont see it becuase the evidence isnt there. 

 

or maybe sam fans and Sam are teh same...   they see things which are not there...   GHOSTS

 

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, Losmeister said:

or maybe sam fans and Sam are teh same...   they see things which are not there...   GHOSTS

Dude number 1 we are Jets fans first and foremost so yes it would make sense that we want our young QB to succeed right? 

[Losmeister]

3 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

Dude number 1 we are Jets fans first and foremost so yes it would make sense that we want our young QB to succeed right? 

i desperately want him to succeed!

but i see someone who i thinks chances are low based on the body of work.

NO ONE WHO EVALUATES ANYTHING AND WISHES TO BE CONSIDERED CREDIBLE SIMPLY ERASES BAD DATA AND PRESENTS THE REMAINDER OF THE DATA AS "FACT"

[Losmeister]

you seem like a nice guy 723.

for reals.

i have no PERSONAL beef w/ anybody here. 

look at the tape. ALL OF IT.

Theres a reason the only QB who PFF considers has a shot at elit ethat is lower than Sam is Rosen.

Cos they aint Jets fans and DGAF